Reasons Wrongly Given Why Women Don't Have The Priesthood

[Zakuska]

Completely different orders of priesthood. Priesthood isn't a bucket, and being endowed doesn't mean your bucket is more full than an Elder's bucket.

An endowed woman holds just as much priesthood as an endowed man/Elder, yet she has subjected her self to her man by covenant. They are equal in the eyes of the Lord. She is an "elder" but has not been called to the "office" of "Elder". She holds more Priesthood than an aaronic deacon, aaronic teacher, or aaronic priest.

It means you have specific keys you can utilize.

Specific keys are bestowed on people when they are called to various offices. Just like if Im the head Janitor i have the master key, yet my two employees. One a man and one a woman. Might only have the keys to certian classrooms and male and female restrooms respectively. Just because they are male and female and have different sets of keys, doesnt mean my female employee is any less a Janitor than my male employee. They have just been assigned different portions of the building to clean.

In a similar way when you are ordained to the priesthood you receive ALL the keys of the priesthood, which is why you are then given a specific office to function in. That's why you can progress in priesthood office without having additional conferral.

Not so. You are called to an office and certian keys are bestowed upon you. That is why a Deacon can pass the sacrament but he cant bless the sacrament but a Priest can both bless AND pass the sacrament.

Since a Melq. Priesthood holder holds All the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood, an endowed woman can pass the sacrament, but she lacks one final key. Permission from her presiding Priesthood Authority.

"I confer upon you the Aaronic Priesthood (yep, now you have it all) and ordain you to be a Deacon therein (oh, now are called to do certain things)".

"I confer upon you the Melchezidek Priesthood (yep, now you have it all) and ordain you to be an Elder therein (oh, now you have a specific calling)."

Receiving priesthood keys in the temple doesn't bestow a calling outside of the temple order. You are still to function within the parameters of your calling.

Thanks for bringing this up because it illustrates where i think we have fallen down as a church in letting our Sisters know that they do indeed hold the priesthood. It appears that it has not been explained very well what exactly happens when they get endowed and dawn the "robes of the holy priesthood".

Just because an endowed person receives keys of the order of Aaronic and Melchezidek does not mean they have to be called to any particular office.

Exactly. Except that you are conflating keys with office. And at the same time, just because they dont hold an office. Does not mean that they are not qualified to hold an office. Having the priesthood (which endowed women do have) is the first qualification. The second would be permission from her priesthood overseer (ie bishop).

And callings to offices have been handed down by revelation since the beginning of time. And certain callings are for men (King/Priest for instance) and certain callings are for women (Queen/Priestess for instance). And just as you will never have a male Queen/Priestess you will never have a female King/Priest. Why then would we expect a female Bishop or Elder?

Completely agree. Bishop and Elder are two "offices" in the church that have been defined as being filled by males. Just like Releif Society President is an office defined for females. Yet we still see Elders filling the roll of RSP in newly opened areas. So what's s wrong with a female Bishop? Especialy since its a policy not a doctrine. And anyways, all of this does not take a womans priesthood away and she is still an "e"lder in the ward family with the Melq. Priesthood.

I only have 4 posts left so i may not answer today if you do.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Zakuska

[iamse7en]

Maybe because we are still under the effects of the Fall.

 

Unto the woman, I, the Lord God, said: I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception.  In sorrow thou shalt bring forth children, and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. (Moses 4:22)

 

Women were never placed to lead. Did you ever see a ship rigged for sailing to England, or to any other port in the world, without a helm, and rudder, and a man who knew the points of the compass and how to receive instructions for guiding that ship. And then you will sometimes see a number of boats lashed with cables to a large ship, and they are all led by that ship, and that is guided by the power and intelligence on board of it. Women are made to be led, and counselled, and directed. If they are not led, and do not make their cables fast to the power and authority they are connected with, they will be damned. Instead of cutting those little fibres that pertain to those cables which connect them with the ship, they ought to be adding other strands to the cables, that they may stand when the sea becomes boisterous.

Women are to be led. If I should undertake to drive a woman, I should have to drive her before me; and then she becomes my leader the moment I do that. I should lead her; and she should be led by me, if I am a good man; and if I am not a good man, I have no just right in this Church to a wife or wives, or to the power to propagate my species. What, then, should be done with me? Make a eunuch of me, and stop my propagation. (Heber C. Kimball, JD 5:29)

 

I have counseled every woman of this church to let her husband be her file leader; he leads her and those above him in the Priesthood lead him. But I never counseled a woman to follow her husband to hell." (Brigham Young, as quoted in R.S. Magazine, Nov. 1933, p. 669)

 

The subordinate role of woman to man in the marriage relationship appears to be the result of the Fall rather than from her creation. At that time there was instituted a division of labor and responsibility--with the woman being assigned to the domestic realm and the other labors consigned to the man. Eve's submissive role to Adam set a pattern and a law that was to govern the relationship between men and women on this earth. This so-called "secondary" status has been disputed by many women ever since, and seems to be contested today more than ever. However, there needs to be order and organization in all things. (Ogden Kraut, The Holy Priesthood: Volume 3, p. 17)

Edited June 22, 2014 by iamse7en

[saemo]

I suggest reading Elder Oaks' talk from this last General Conference.  It that talk, he very much supported the idea that motherhood is to women what Priesthood is to men:

 

"The greatest power God has given to His sons cannot be exercised without the companionship of one of His daughters, because only to His daughters has God given the power “to be a creator of bodies … so that God’s design and the Great Plan might meet fruition.”¹² Those are the words of President J. Reuben Clark.

He continued: “This is the place of our wives and of our mothers in the Eternal Plan. They are not bearers of the Priesthood; they are not charged with carrying out the duties and functions of the Priesthood; nor are they laden with its responsibilities; they are builders and organizers under its power, and partakers of its blessings, possessing the complement of the Priesthood powers and possessing a function as divinely called, as eternally important in its place as the Priesthood itself.”

Women possess the "complement of the Priesthood."

I'd say, fatherhood is to men, what motherhood is to women.

[JLHPROF]

An endowed woman holds just as much priesthood as an endowed man/Elder, yet she has subjected her self to her man by covenant. They are equal in the eyes of the Lord. She is an "elder" but has not been called to the "office" of "Elder". She holds more Priesthood than an aaronic deacon, aaronic teacher, or aaronic priest.

Specific keys are bestowed on people when they are called to various offices. Just like if Im the head Janitor i have the master key, yet my two employees. One a man and one a woman. Might only have the keys to certian classrooms and male and female restrooms respectively. Just because they are male and female and have different sets of keys, doesnt mean my female employee is any less a Janitor than my male employee. They have just been assigned different portions of the building to clean.

Not so. You are called to an office and certian keys are bestowed upon you. That is why a Deacon can pass the sacrament but he cant bless the sacrament but a Priest can both bless AND pass the sacrament.

Since a Melq. Priesthood holder holds All the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood, an endowed woman can pass the sacrament, but she lacks one final key. Permission from her presiding Priesthood Authority.

Thanks for bringing this up because it illustrates where i think we have fallen down as a church in letting our Sisters know that they do indeed hold the priesthood. It appears that it has not been explained very well what exactly happens when they get endowed and dawn the "robes of the holy priesthood".

Exactly. Except that you are conflating keys with office. And at the same time, just because they dont hold an office. Does not mean that they are not qualified to hold an office. Having the priesthood (which endowed women do have) is the first qualification. The second would be permission from her priesthood overseer (ie bishop).

Completely agree. Bishop and Elder are two "offices" in the church that have been defined as being filled by males. Just like Releif Society President is an office defined for females. Yet we still see Elders filling the roll of RSP in newly opened areas. So what's s wrong with a female Bishop? Especialy since its a policy not a doctrine. And anyways, all of this does not take a womans priesthood away and she is still an "e"lder in the ward family with the Melq. Priesthood.

I only have 4 posts left so i may not answer today if you do.

 

Excellent discussion.  I think you recognize correctly that women are given certain priesthood keys and functions in the temple and have the opportunity for ordination to a specific office, something not everyone seems to realise.  Where I can't agree with you is in their applying them in the Church and transferring that to offices like Deacon, Elder or Bishop.  That is a step outside what I see as established eternal roles.

[Zakuska]

Excellent discussion. I think you recognize correctly that women are given certain priesthood keys and functions in the temple and have the opportunity for ordination to a specific office, something not everyone seems to realise. Where I can't agree with you is in their applying them in the Church and transferring that to offices like Deacon, Elder or Bishop. That is a step outside what I see as established eternal roles.

This has been a good discussion. One thing though... How can "Bishop" be an "established eternal role" when women have occassionaly filled in the role through out history?

Eg. Deborah, Phoebe

Edited June 22, 2014 by Zakuska

[bluebell]

I'd say, fatherhood is to men, what motherhood is to women.

 

After the baby is born, i think that is largely true.

[halconero]

This has been a good discussion. One thing though... How can "Bishop" be an "established eternal role" when women have occassionaly filled in the role through out history?

Eg. Deborah, Phoebe

Deborah was a prophetic tribal leader, Phoebe's role as "benefactor" refers to the Greco-Roman concept of patronage wherein a wealthy member of society would sponsor a local cult and hold their meetings in their home. The Greek word "deacon" does not refer to a priesthood office, but simply to "one who serves" or "one who ministers"

to people.

[saemo]

After the baby is born, i think that is largely true.

So did Brother Oakes mean to say giving birth is the counterpart to priesthood?

 

And how is it only largely true.

Edited June 22, 2014 by saemo

[bluebell]

So did Brother Oakes mean to say giving birth is the counterpart to priesthood?

 

And how is it only largely true.

 

It is only largely true because motherhood generally includes carrying a child from conception to birth inside the mother's womb and then includes the act of giving birth, with all the miracle and danger that that entails.

 

Fatherhood includes none of those things.

 

That is why the comparison is not an equal one before the child is born, but is equal after.

[Zakuska]

Deborah was a prophetic tribal leader, Phoebe's role as "benefactor" refers to the Greco-Roman concept of patronage wherein a wealthy member of society would sponsor a local cult and hold their meetings in their home. The Greek word "deacon" does not refer to a priesthood office, but simply to "one who serves" or "one who ministers"

to people.

And yet, do not deacons serve the sacramental bread and water/wine to the congregation? A very apt title indeed.

Deborah was a judge in Israel.

Judges 4

4 ¶And Deborah, a prophetess, the wife of Lapidoth, she judged Israel at that time.

5 And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Beth-el in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment.

Are we not told now that the office of Bishop is equivalent to what a judge in Israel is/was?

D&C 107

74 Thus shall he be a judge, even a common judge among the inhabitants of Zion, or in a stake of Zion, or in any branch of the church where he shall be set apart unto this ministry, until the borders of Zion are enlarged and it becomes necessary to have other bishops or judges in Zion or elsewhere.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Zakuska

[DJBrown]

I'd say, fatherhood is to men, what motherhood is to women.

 

Elder Oaks suggests that Motherhood is the "complement of the Priesthood."  In other words, motherhood is to women what Priesthood is to men.

[DJBrown]

I'm very consistent.  I say that women who are endowed hold certain priesthood keys.  But maybe that's just me.  I have never disputed that. 

 

It's the next step where people want women and girls being deacons, teachers, priests, elders and high priests etc  that I can't support.  But the established fact that they receive priesthood keys in the temple and can be ordained Queens and Priestesses should be enough evidence to anyone that women can hold the priesthood.

 

Women do not hold Priesthood keys.  Period.  They are not bearers of the Priesthood.  It can be said that they exercise under the power of the Priesthood when they fulfill duties and callings that function under Priesthood keys of others.  But they themselves do not hold the Priesthood or Priesthood keys.

[DJBrown]

After the baby is born, i think that is largely true.

 

In the vast majority of cases, mothers have a bond and connection with their children that is deeper and different than the bond that exists between fathers and their children.  I don't think there is true equality after birth in this regard.

[DJBrown]

An endowed woman holds just as much priesthood as an endowed man/Elder, yet she has subjected her self to her man by covenant. They are equal in the eyes of the Lord. She is an "elder" but has not been called to the "office" of "Elder". She holds more Priesthood than an aaronic deacon, aaronic teacher, or aaronic priest.

Specific keys are bestowed on people when they are called to various offices. Just like if Im the head Janitor i have the master key, yet my two employees. One a man and one a woman. Might only have the keys to certian classrooms and male and female restrooms respectively. Just because they are male and female and have different sets of keys, doesnt mean my female employee is any less a Janitor than my male employee. They have just been assigned different portions of the building to clean.

Not so. You are called to an office and certian keys are bestowed upon you. That is why a Deacon can pass the sacrament but he cant bless the sacrament but a Priest can both bless AND pass the sacrament.

Since a Melq. Priesthood holder holds All the keys of the Aaronic Priesthood, an endowed woman can pass the sacrament, but she lacks one final key. Permission from her presiding Priesthood Authority.

Thanks for bringing this up because it illustrates where i think we have fallen down as a church in letting our Sisters know that they do indeed hold the priesthood. It appears that it has not been explained very well what exactly happens when they get endowed and dawn the "robes of the holy priesthood".

Exactly. Except that you are conflating keys with office. And at the same time, just because they dont hold an office. Does not mean that they are not qualified to hold an office. Having the priesthood (which endowed women do have) is the first qualification. The second would be permission from her priesthood overseer (ie bishop).

Completely agree. Bishop and Elder are two "offices" in the church that have been defined as being filled by males. Just like Releif Society President is an office defined for females. Yet we still see Elders filling the roll of RSP in newly opened areas. So what's s wrong with a female Bishop? Especialy since its a policy not a doctrine. And anyways, all of this does not take a womans priesthood away and she is still an "e"lder in the ward family with the Melq. Priesthood.

I only have 4 posts left so i may not answer today if you do.

 

This is just false.  

 

Women do not hold the Priesthood.  And they are not ordained.  They are not Elders.  She does not hold more Priesthood than the brethren of the Aaronic Priesthood.

 

A man who is ordained to the Priesthood, either Aaronic or Melchizedek, does not receive Priesthood keys with that ordination.  I think you guys are using the word "keys" incorrectly.  Priesthood keys are only given to Priesthood holders with certain callings- Stake President, Bishop, Elders Quorum President, Teachers Quorum President, Deacons Quorum President, Mission President, Temple President, Apostle.

 

Where are you getting this stuff?  This is pure false doctrine.

[Zakuska]

I never said she was an "E"lder?  (Did you notice the Capital 'E'?) I said she was an 'elder' (ie a member of the Melq. Priesthood or more mature order of Priesthood)

 

Tell me DJBrown. Why do Endowed women wear the exact same clothing as endowed men do both in AND outside the temple? And why does one of the pieces of clothing specifically represent priesthood and powers that they hold (like a military rank patch) if indeed Women do not hold the Priesthood?

 

Would all the Endowed women in the room please remove any clothing you are wearing that is given only to "priesthood holders" and leave it at the door. DJ Brown would like to excise you from the New and Everlasting Order of the Priesthood.

 

Why do I always have to fall for this? I hate walking so close to the Line. Mods I felt since I was being accused of teaching false Doctrine I at least had a right to respond.

 

PS. DJBrown please listen more closely the next time you go to the house of the Lord rather than accuse others of teaching false Doctrine. Thank you.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Zakuska

[Stone holm]

I'd say, fatherhood is to men, what motherhood is to women.

True. That is why I feel the argument that women have motherhood therefore they don't have the Priesthood keys is a non sequitur .

[saemo]

It is only largely true because motherhood generally includes carrying a child from conception to birth inside the mother's womb and then includes the act of giving birth, with all the miracle and danger that that entails.

 

Fatherhood includes none of those things.

 

That is why the comparison is not an equal one before the child is born, but is equal after.

Right, but in the ideal scenario, of an intact family with a father and a mother, she is not on her own, but the father is there, supporting the mother and child before the child is even born.  As a father should.

 

Also, a boy is ordained long before (hopefully) he becomes a father. What is the counterpart to a child who has been ordained?

 

I'm also still not understanding how pregnancy and birth are counterparts to priesthood.

Edited June 23, 2014 by saemo

[saemo]

True. That is why I feel the argument that women have motherhood therefore they don't have the Priesthood keys is a non sequitur .

 

I agree.

[DJBrown]

I never said she was an "E"lder?  (Did you notice the Capital 'E'?) I said she was an 'elder' (ie a member of the Melq. Priesthood or more mature order of Priesthood)

 

Tell me DJBrown. Why do Endowed women wear the exact same clothing as endowed men do both in AND outside the temple? And why does one of the pieces of clothing specifically represent priesthood and powers that they hold (like a military rank patch) if indeed Women do not hold the Priesthood?

 

Would all the Endowed women in the room please remove any clothing you are wearing that is given only to "priesthood holders" and leave it at the door. DJ Brown would like to excise you from the New and Everlasting Order of the Priesthood.

 

Why do I always have to fall for this? I hate walking so close to the Line. Mods I felt since I was being accused of teaching false Doctrine I at least had a right to respond.

 

PS. DJBrown please listen more closely the next time you go to the house of the Lord rather than accuse others of teaching false Doctrine. Thank you.

 

CFR on women being "elders."

 

Men and women wear the same clothing because both are blessed in the similar way by Priesthood ordinances.  Your logic would lead us to believe that only people who hold the Priesthood can receive Priesthood blessings.

 

You spoke of women holding "keys" of the Priesthood.  That is false.  Elder Oaks said as much just recently.  They do not hold the Priesthood.  But they operate under Priesthood power when they fulfill duties and callings under those with Priesthood keys.  It is delegated authority that they exercise.  

Elder Oaks stated all of this pretty clearly just 2 months ago. 

[Tacenda]

CFR on women being "elders."

 

Men and women wear the same clothing because both are blessed in the similar way by Priesthood ordinances.  Your logic would lead us to believe that only people who hold the Priesthood can receive Priesthood blessings.

 

You spoke of women holding "keys" of the Priesthood.  That is false.  Elder Oaks said as much just recently.  They do not hold the Priesthood.  But they operate under Priesthood power when they fulfill duties and callings under those with Priesthood keys.  It is delegated authority that they exercise.  

Elder Oaks stated all of this pretty clearly just 2 months ago. 

Well I guess we could say a living apostle can trump a deceased prophet.  http://askmormongirl.wordpress.com/2013/06/28/should-mormon-women-be-ordained-or-are-they-already-priesthood-holders/

Edited June 23, 2014 by Tacenda

[Zakuska]

CFR on women being "elders."

 

Men and women wear the same clothing because both are blessed in the similar way by Priesthood ordinances.  Your logic would lead us to believe that only people who hold the Priesthood can receive Priesthood blessings.

 

You spoke of women holding "keys" of the Priesthood.  That is false.  Elder Oaks said as much just recently.  They do not hold the Priesthood.  But they operate under Priesthood power when they fulfill duties and callings under those with Priesthood keys.  It is delegated authority that they exercise.  

Elder Oaks stated all of this pretty clearly just 2 months ago. 

A common proof text used to justify an all male healing and anointing with concecrated oil is James 5.

 

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

 

The word "elder" (Presbeter something like that) there does not refer to "Elders" in the Quorum of Elders. It refers to "elders" as in older people with experience and Knowledge who could be BOTH male or Female.

 

In today's church that healing power has been usurped exclusively by a Male role in the church. The Releif Society President holds the "keys" to her calling.  Yes an endowed  Male can fill in like Missionaries do in the Mission field when an Endowed Female is not present.  

 

So the Releif Society President does indeed hold "keys" in her calling.  The Releif Society was Originally set up By Joseph Smith to be a "Priesthood" for women, he says as much in his Journals. I respecfully disagree with Elder Oaks and think he should study up a little. more in this regard.

 

Also listen closely in the temple the next time you attend. Women wear a specific piece of clothing that represents her "Priesthood and Powers". Women do Indeed hold the Priesthood  Men have usurped power of the keys.

 

Thank you Tacenda, for the link.

 

What do I mean by “arrested restoration”?  Joseph Smith had a revolutionary vision of women and priestly authority.  We can see its outlines in the minutes of the Nauvoo Relief Society, accessible on-line here and in print (in limited form) in The Beginning of Better Days. (A scholarly edition of the minutes in full should be published as soon as possible.  It’s curious if not disappointing that the LDS Church owns an entire university system with fully tenured religion faculties and that this basic work of scholarship has still not been done.) He ordained his wife Emma Smith (D&C 25:7); he told women in the Relief Society that he intended to make of them “a kingdom of priests”; and he welcomed women to receive temple endowments, including the wearing of a garment that symbolized priesthood authority.  He also lectured to women of the Nauvoo Relief Society and promised further instruction on priesthood and temples.

 

Joseph Smith Ordained Emma and that's in our Canon!

 

D&C 25:7

7 And thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures, and to exhort the church, according as it shall be given thee by my Spirit.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Zakuska

[Buzzard]

A common proof text used to justify an all male healing and anointing with concecrated oil is James 5.

 

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed.The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

 

The word "elder" (Presbeter something like that) there does not refer to "Elders" in the Quorum of Elders. It refers to "elders" as in older people with experience and Knowledge who could be BOTH male or Female.

 

In today's church that healing power has been usurped exclusively by a Male role in the church. The Releif Society President holds the "keys" to her calling.  Yes an endowed  Male can fill in like Missionaries do in the Mission field when an Endowed Female is not present.  

 

So the Releif Society President does indeed hold "keys" in her calling.  The Releif Society was Originally set up By Joseph Smith to be a "Priesthood" for women, he says as much in his Journals. I respecfully disagree with Elder Oaks and think he should study up a little. more in this regard.

 

Also listen closely in the temple the next time you attend. Women wear a specific piece of clothing that represents her "Priesthood and Powers". Women do Indeed hold the Priesthood  Men have usurped power of the keys.

 

Thank you Tacenda, for the link.

 

 

Joseph Smith Ordained Emma and that's in our Canon!

 

D&C 25:7

7 And thou shalt be ordained under his hand to expound scriptures, and to exhort the church, according as it shall be given thee by my Spirit.

I hope you are not offended if I observe that correcting an apostle and suggesting that he should "study up a little" is pretty high risk behavior. BTW, I agree with D&C 25:7. Women, including Emma are ordained to expound scriptures and exhort the church. I hear them do it almost every week in Sacrament Meeting.  No mention of Emma or any other sister being ordained to perform priesthood ordinances or hold callings that require priesthood keys.

[Zakuska]

I hope you are not offended if I observe that correcting an apostle and suggesting that he should "study up a little" is pretty high risk behavior. BTW, I agree with D&C 25:7. Women, including Emma are ordained to expound scriptures and exhort the church. I hear them do it almost every week in Sacrament Meeting.  No mention of Emma or any other sister being ordained to perform priesthood ordinances or hold callings that require priesthood keys.

An Aposlte has just as much Authority in the Priesthood as I do. Yes, he holds more keys, but that doesn't make him God nor an untouchable Ark. I did excuse my self with the qualifying "all dew respect".

 

I was diagreeing with him while trying my hardest to not be disagreeable.  Looks like I failed in that effort.

 

So Emma is "ordained" to teach Sunday School. But read the Original Minutes to the Orignization of the Releif Society in the Joseph Smith Papers. Women  were also to go forth Healing with concecrated oil and much more than that, all things that have been usurped by men in todays church.

 

This is in the intro:

 

JS attended nine Relief Society meetings in 1842 and addressed six of them. These minutes document his instructions regarding women’s new responsibilities, authority, and forthcoming temple blessings—the only record of teachings JS directed specifically to women. The minutes detail donations for and visits with the poor, contributions for temple construction, and women’s efforts at moral reform and civic activism. Discussions reported in this record refer explicitly or implicitly to tensions mounting in Nauvoo over JS’s political influence and threatened extradition to Missouri, the defection of prominent church and civic leader John C. Bennett, and the tumult surrounding the introduction of plural marriage. The record of the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo ends on 16 March 1844; a decade passed before Relief Society meetings resumed in the Salt Lake Valley.

 

Page 7

 

 

He propos’d that the Sisters elect a presiding officer to preside over  them, and let that presiding officer choose two Counsellors  to assist in the duties of her Office— that he would ordain  them to preside over the Society— and let them preside  just as the Presidency, preside over the church; and if

 

page 8

 

 

Let this Presidency serve as a constitution— all their  decisions be considered law; and acted upon as such.

If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of  the Institution, let them be appointed and set apart, as  Deacons,Teachers &c. are among us.

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=1

 

According to the original Notes of the RS women where to be ordained to the office of "DEACON", "TEACHERS" etc!

 

Thats from the Prophet Joseph Smiths mouth himself!

Edited June 23, 2014 by Zakuska

[Buzzard]

An Aposlte has just as much Authority in the Priesthood as I do. Yes, he holds more keys, but that doesn't make him God nor an untouchable Ark. I did excuse my self with the qualifying "all dew respect".

 

I was diagreeing with him while trying my hardest to not be disagreeable.  Looks like I failed in that effort.

 

Glad you are comfortable telling a member of the 12 that he is full of rocks theologically. Better you than me, I suppose.

 

So Emma is "ordained" to teach Sunday School. But read the Original Minutes to the Orignization of the Releif Society in the Joseph Smith Papers. Women  were also to go forth Healing with concecrated oil and much more than that, all things that have been usurped by men in todays church.

 

I'm aware that in the 19th century women gave blessings. But then the Prophet asked that they stop. It's his right to do so. We also practiced plural marriage at the time. Are you suggesting that discontinuing that practice was a mistake as well?

 

This is in the intro:

"Let this Presidency serve as a constitution— all their  decisions be considered law; and acted upon as such.

If any Officers are wanted to carry out the designs of  the Institution, let them be appointed and set apart, as  Deacons,Teachers &c. are among us."

 

 

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=1

 

According to the original Notes of the RS women where to be ordained to the office of "DEACON", "TEACHERS" etc!

 

Thats from the Prophet Joseph Smiths mouth himself!

 

See that one little (and inconvenient) word "as" in there? It kind of changes the whole shooting match. It means that the R.S. sisters are to be given callings and set apart in those callings the same way that men are called as Deacons and Teachers. Yes, Deacons and Teachers are offices of the Aaronic priesthood, but they are not the priesthood itself. So we can agree. Sisters in the R.S. are given callings within that society. They are called to be Visiting Teachers, to serve on committees, to function in presidencies, and so on. But in the same manner as the priesthood does not mean that they are given the priesthood. Remember, before Joseph went to Carthage, he told the 12 that he had given all the keys of the priesthood to them. He didn't say that he forgot the one about ordaining the sisters. 

[CV75]

http://josephsmithpapers.org/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book#!/paperSummary/nauvoo-relief-society-minute-book&p=1

 

According to the original Notes of the RS women where to be ordained to the office of "DEACON", "TEACHERS" etc!

 

Thats from the Prophet Joseph Smiths mouth himself!

I think you may be misreading what is says. To ordain in these two references means to invest with ministerial functions, and (Archaic) to select for or appoint to an office. This is can be done to "carry out the designs of the Institution" without priesthood office as it is with deacons and priests, which carry out the design of the Church to perform ordinances.

 

So while this is not a reason wrongly given why women don't have  priesthood office, it is not a good reason to give them priesthood office.

 

I suppose there are many good reasons to give them priesthood office, depending on who you talk to and what "good" (and "reason") means, but a "good" "reason" simply isn't enough, and those on both sides of the issue agree that only the Lord can determine that.