Stone holm Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 As long as we are all human beings, we are more alike than different. Here is what I would really like you to compare and analyze. It can only be done by finding a principle taught to boys and comparing a similar one taught to girls if you really want to see the difference. One talk to the Aaronic Priesthood https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/sacred-keys-of-the-aaronic-priesthood?lang=engand the three talks to girls at the Women's session in 2011. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/i-believe-in-being-honest-and-true?lang=eng I use all of the talks to demonstrate this is not unusual. The talk to the boys is one of my all time favorites. I am so grateful my grandson will be hearing this. The boys are being guided to discover their own answers, the girls are being told what they are and what they should be rather than being expected to actively discover it. All this means is that what girls are told needs to be enhanced. It is an easy fix because it is already being done for boys. This year's Women's Session was a vast improvement. None of what is being taught is wrong, or bad, it is just our traditional way of speaking to girls and women. To see why so many women are upset with the current treatment of women, this is a good beginning. These are only examples. For those that only want to argue about women's concerns, it is a useless exercise. There is an overriding emphasis on the girls' needing to feel good throughout these talks while the boys' actions and responsibility are emphasized. These are subtle things and again, it is only for those who really do want to understand what the fuss is about. What is subtle becomes less subtle when it is said over and over and over. Girls look toward the future.... Boys do it now. Girls need guardians and help, Boys are guardians... A very exciting development is the new curriculum. Here is a side by side comparison of the new priesthood lessons. You can see they are removing quite a bit of the passive language directed to girls. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5IILxCHTVLueHpLbld5SVU5N0E/edit For example, what are the duties of the priesthood holder has been changed to what are my responsiibilies in the work of the priesthood. A quote from Pres. Dalton's talk (above) has been removed. There is a lingering negativity throughout the girls' talks. While the boys are presented above as the solution, girls are presented as part of the problem. This is exacerbated because adjectives can't be measured, particularly kindness which isn't easy to evaluate and will usually end up being determined by others. Again, not a problem...unless this is the majority of what is expected of girls. There are already encouraging improvementsI think I hear my deceased wife cheering! Well done! Gave you a bump on that one.
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Why would you want to give young women leadership training they already enjoy the benefits of the priesthood. Oh did you mean like home economics.Uh, if anyone has a clue what he is talking about let me know. I said that boys get leadership training and the sisters should as well. 1
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 As long as we are all human beings, we are more alike than different. Here is what I would really like you to compare and analyze. It can only be done by finding a principle taught to boys and comparing a similar one taught to girls if you really want to see the difference. One talk to the Aaronic Priesthood https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/sacred-keys-of-the-aaronic-priesthood?lang=engand the three talks to girls at the Women's session in 2011. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/i-believe-in-being-honest-and-true?lang=eng I use all of the talks to demonstrate this is not unusual. The talk to the boys is one of my all time favorites. I am so grateful my grandson will be hearing this. The boys are being guided to discover their own answers, the girls are being told what they are and what they should be rather than being expected to actively discover it. All this means is that what girls are told needs to be enhanced. It is an easy fix because it is already being done for boys. This year's Women's Session was a vast improvement. None of what is being taught is wrong, or bad, it is just our traditional way of speaking to girls and women. To see why so many women are upset with the current treatment of women, this is a good beginning. These are only examples. For those that only want to argue about women's concerns, it is a useless exercise. There is an overriding emphasis on the girls' needing to feel good throughout these talks while the boys' actions and responsibility are emphasized. These are subtle things and again, it is only for those who really do want to understand what the fuss is about. What is subtle becomes less subtle when it is said over and over and over. Girls look toward the future.... Boys do it now. Girls need guardians and help, Boys are guardians...There is a lingering negativity throughout the girls' talks. While the boys are presented above as the solution, girls are presented as part of the problem. This is exacerbated because adjectives can't be measured, particularly kindness which isn't easy to evaluate and will usually end up being determined by others. Again, not a problem...unless this is the majority of what is expected of girls. A very exciting development is the new curriculum. Here is a side by side comparison of the new priesthood lessons. You can see they are removing quite a bit of the passive language directed to girls. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5IILxCHTVLueHpLbld5SVU5N0E/edit For example, what are the duties of the priesthood holder has been changed to what are my responsiibilies in the work of the priesthood. A quote from Pres. Dalton's talk (above) has been removed. There are already encouraging improvementsOK well I am sure I could find counter-examples where boys are told what they should be, etc. I appreciate the work involved here in looking at these talks, and I can understand your point of view. There is clearly a difference, but one might argue that there should be a difference because men and women are different by God's design for them BUT, for me this is the clincher, and I think you are exactly right:All this means is that what girls are told needs to be enhanced. It is an easy fix because it is already being done for boys. This year's Women's Session was a vast improvement. None of what is being taught is wrong, or bad, it is just our traditional way of speaking to girls and women. To see why so many women are upset with the current treatment of women, this is a good beginning. These are only examples. For those that only want to argue about women's concerns, it is a useless exercise.As far as I am concerned if there is ANY significantly sized group of members who have concerns which can reasonably be accommodated, those concerns should be addressed and ameliorated insofar as it is possible to do so. I personally know perhaps 3 or 4 hundred sisters in my stake who are members of the church, and only know a handful (5 or 6) who have expressed any concerns about these issues, but perhaps it is because they are remaining silent, or perhaps it is because of the makeup of the Stake or where we are located- or whatever. I have discussed this with my wife and daughters extensively and we all agree. They think that OW is totally off base. On the other hand, I think it is a shame that we have lost the spirit of Eliza R. Snow and how she understood the priesthood. I have no problem with that, and would love to see us go back to that view. As I have said before, in our household I believe my wife and I share the priesthood, and she has stood in with me on blessings for the kids, etc. But the clincher for me is the simple fact that if people are dissatisfied and they can be accommodated by, as you say, an "easy fix", I would be the first to go for it. We need to accommodate all the points of view we can reasonably accommodate. My personal understanding of the gospel is quite different than the vast majority of members, but that is one of the strengths of the church- that our doctrine IS indeed flexible enough to accommodate vastly different interpretations of our scriptures. So though we perhaps disagree on our personal views of the differences between men and women, I think in the final analysis we can agree on what course the church "should" take in the extremely unlikely event that either of us get a phone call from the prophet asking for direction on how the church should handle this situation. So I bet you didn't expect that!!?? 2
mfbukowski Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 Why are these blessings used as a reaon to eagerly seek out the Priesthood for men if it doesn't make a difference for blessings? If good men could receive them just the same without the Priesthood ? (not a rhetorical question, am very interested in the answer)http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=30500973#PFXu2Z1PLYafx1BO.01 SALT LAKE CITY — The Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints released a statement Saturday about priesthood in the church, church service, questioning and apostasy.The three-paragraph statement, posted Saturday morning on LDS.org, said:"In God’s plan for the happiness and eternal progression of his children, the blessings of his priesthood are equally available to men and women. Only men are ordained to serve in priesthood offices.
Rain Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 It says the same- I was joking. Honestly I do not have pumps in the closet except maybe some spare parts in case the sump pump breaks down.I was responding to why zakuska's bishop might have a problem with it.
Calm Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 They think that OW is totally off base... she has stood in with me on blessings for the kids, etc. There is a huge variation in my experience without OW in the picture at all.I know women who believe or have been told they are not to stand with their husbands or give any blessings to their children on their own, even just by putting their hands on them and praying...only allowed to ask in prayers (nothing that looks like a priesthood blessing, one might hold the child in one's arms and give a silent prayer). Iirc, Tacenda said this was what she thought before. I find this very sad myself and hope that at the very least we become better at sharing what is allowed (it is kind of like many refuse to say anything bout the temple anywhere but the temple instead of the very limited restrictions stated...though of course the rest one treats with respect and doesn't treat it as open discussion any time, any place).
juliann Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) More examples from the 2012 conference, I picked the two with similar titles. One talk, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/aaronic-priesthood-arise-and-use-the-power-of-god?lang=eng To the girls https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/now-is-the-time-to-arise-and-shine?lang=eng Even the titles show the problem. Arise and use the power of God vs Arise and shine. Again, an active verb for the boys, and another immeasurable adjective for the girls. The boys, again, are talked to in dynamic words with much more clearly defined goals and an pro-active way to attain them. Dear young men of the Church, let me ask you a question that I hope you will carry in your heart for the rest of your life. What greater power can you acquire on earth than the priesthood of God? What power could possibly be greater than the capacity to assist our Heavenly Father in changing the lives of your fellowmen, to help them along the pathway of eternal happiness by being cleansed of sin and wrongdoing? Girls are assigned fuzzy attributes, they are to be a "standard." This again, implies that a girl's value is in what others see.I see your nobility and know of your divine identity and destiny. You distinguished yourselves in the premortal existence. Your lineage carries with it covenants and promises. You have inherited the spiritual attributes of the faithful patriarchs Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. A prophet of God once referred to each of you assembled here tonight as “the one bright shining hope”3 of the future. And I agree! In a very challenging world, your light shines brightly. Indeed, these are “days never to be forgotten.”4 These are your days, and now is the time for young women everywhere to “arise and shine forth, that thy light may be a standard for the nations.”5 We are to be a standard of holiness for all the world to see! Again, appearance is discussed, along with make-up, and her purpose is to be watched. I wish every young woman assembled here tonight would know and understand that your beauty—your “shine”—does not lie in makeup, gooey cream, or the latest clothing or hairstyles. It lies in your personal purity. When you live the standards and qualify for the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, you can have a powerful impact in the world. Your example, even the light in your eyes, will influence others who see your “shine,” and they will want to be like you. But boys are to actively help others to the Savior. They have the power to speak so that others will feel the undeniable truth of Christ. The priesthood is the power and authority of God Himself to act in the service of His children. Oh, if only every young man, every Aaronic Priesthood holder, could fully comprehend that his priesthood possesses the keys of the ministering of angels. If only they could understand that they have the sacred duty to help their friends find the pathway that leads to the Savior. If only they knew that Heavenly Father will give them the power to explain the truths of the restored gospel with such clarity and sincerity that others will feel the undeniable truthfulness of the words of Christ. The difference between above and what girls are told below is startling. It is all about dependency (not that that is a bad thing, of course, but at some point they need a talk that tells them they have the power to go out and speak with power as well.) In the world in which we live, your ability to lead will require the guidance and constant companionship of the Holy Ghost, who will tell you “all things what ye should do”10 as you recognize and rely on His guidance and promptings. Compare this passive instruction to... The Church has given you the Duty to God booklet as a resource to help you learn and fulfill your duties. Study it often. Get on your knees, away from technology, and seek the Lord’s guidance. And then arise and use the power of God. I promise that you will receive answers from Heavenly Father on how to conduct your own life and how to help others. As boys are urged to study and seek to use the power of God to receive answers and help others, girls are encouraged to use their pamphlet to determine what is wrong with them so they can repent! A group of youth in Queen Creek, Arizona, determined to “arise and shine forth” and to lead the youth in their community in living the standards in For the Strength of Youth. They each wrote something that they felt was holding them back or something they wanted to change in their lives in their journals, and then they literally dug a hole. They came together, tore out the journal page, and threw it into the hole in the earth, just like the people of Ammon did in the Book of Mormon with their weapons of war.12 Then they buried those pages, and that day they each made a commitment to change. They repented. They determined to arise! Again, the message for girls is "moral purity" and getting to the temple. Doing your own genealogy is added. The focus for girls is almost always inward. Like John the Baptist, that exemplary Aaronic Priesthood holder, you are also preparing the way of the Lord and making His paths straight. When you boldly declare the gospel of repentance and baptism, as John did, you are preparing the people for the coming of the Lord (see Matthew 3:3; D&C 65:1–3; 84:26–28). You are often told about your great potential. Well, now is the time to put that potential into action, to make use of the abilities God has given you to bless others, bring them out from obscurity and into light, and prepare the way of the Lord. Boys above, girls below.Be worthy to enter the temple now. Put on your “shiney”! Now there were a couple of more stirring passages at the very end of the girl's talk... Elder Russell M. Nelson said of you, “The influence of [the] young women of the Church, like a sleeping giant, will awaken, arise, and inspire the inhabitants of the earth as a mighty force for righteousness.”23 Young women, arise and take your place in the glorious events that will shape your future and the future of the world. Now is the time! But none of this was fleshed out, the adjectives girls are to aspire to are never really defined to the degree they can be measured and evaluated (except by other people's opinions.) The girls seem to be taught through negative statements a good deal of the time. This is the fourth talk I have read, and I find it easy to see why females don't feel like they can ever be good enough. Edited June 30, 2014 by juliann
Stone holm Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 More examples from the 2012 conference, I picked the two with similar titles. One talk, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/aaronic-priesthood-arise-and-use-the-power-of-god?lang=eng To the girls https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/now-is-the-time-to-arise-and-shine?lang=eng Even the titles show the problem. Arise and use the power of God vs Arise and shine. Again, an active verb for the boys, and another immeasurable adjective for the girls. The boys, again, are talked to in dynamic words with much more clearly defined goals and an pro-active way to attain them. Girls are assigned fuzzy attributes, they are to be a "standard." This again, implies that a girl's value is in what others see. Again, appearance is discussed, along with make-up, and her purpose is to be watched. But boys are to actively help others to the Savior. They have the power to speak so that others will feel the undeniable truth of Christ. The difference between above and what girls are told below is startling. It is all about dependency (not that that is a bad thing, of course, but at some point they need a talk that tells them they have the power to go out and speak with power as well.) Compare this passive instruction to... As boys are urged to study and seek to use the power of God to receive answers and help others, girls are encouraged to use their pamphlet to determine what is wrong with them so they can repent! Again, the message for girls is "moral purity" and getting to the temple. Doing your own genealogy is added. The focus for girls is almost always inward. Boys above, girls below.Now there were a couple of more stirring passages at the very end of the girl's talk... But none of this was fleshed out, the adjectives girls are to aspire to are never really defined to the degree they can be measured and evaluated (except by other people's opinions.) The girls seem to be taught through negative statements a good deal of the time. This is the fourth talk I have read, and I find it easy to see why females don't feel like they can ever be good enough.My wife who tends to be much more "toe the line" on such issues than I, totally agrees with your reasoning. There has been and is a dual standard. She did, however, suggest that the boys probably needed more drilling on certain issues because of our male deficiencies.
Senator Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 (edited) Oh, if only every young man, every Aaronic Priesthood holder, could fully comprehend that his priesthood possesses the keys of the ministering of angels. This particular statement just struck me. We often hear the response from women that they don't want the Priesthood. How could anyone not want to possess the keys of the ministering of angels? This leads to other questions. It is said that women share all the power and blessings of the priesthood. For married women its through their husbands. How does a young, or unmarried woman, share in the ministering of angels? Through their Aaronic Priesthood holding young men in their ward? Their fathers? Their Bishop? Does she inherently possess the power through her feminine characteristics? Edited June 30, 2014 by Senator 1
california boy Posted June 30, 2014 Posted June 30, 2014 More examples from the 2012 conference, I picked the two with similar titles. One talk, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/aaronic-priesthood-arise-and-use-the-power-of-god?lang=eng To the girls https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/now-is-the-time-to-arise-and-shine?lang=eng Even the titles show the problem. Arise and use the power of God vs Arise and shine. Again, an active verb for the boys, and another immeasurable adjective for the girls. The boys, again, are talked to in dynamic words with much more clearly defined goals and an pro-active way to attain them. Girls are assigned fuzzy attributes, they are to be a "standard." This again, implies that a girl's value is in what others see. Again, appearance is discussed, along with make-up, and her purpose is to be watched. But boys are to actively help others to the Savior. They have the power to speak so that others will feel the undeniable truth of Christ. The difference between above and what girls are told below is startling. It is all about dependency (not that that is a bad thing, of course, but at some point they need a talk that tells them they have the power to go out and speak with power as well.) Compare this passive instruction to... As boys are urged to study and seek to use the power of God to receive answers and help others, girls are encouraged to use their pamphlet to determine what is wrong with them so they can repent! Again, the message for girls is "moral purity" and getting to the temple. Doing your own genealogy is added. The focus for girls is almost always inward. Boys above, girls below.Now there were a couple of more stirring passages at the very end of the girl's talk... But none of this was fleshed out, the adjectives girls are to aspire to are never really defined to the degree they can be measured and evaluated (except by other people's opinions.) The girls seem to be taught through negative statements a good deal of the time. This is the fourth talk I have read, and I find it easy to see why females don't feel like they can ever be good enough. Juliann, I think you bring up some very valid points. I haven't said much about the whole OW movement. And I know that many disapprove of the way they went and continue to go about pushing their beliefs. No matter what side you come down on, you have to admit, the OW movement has been more effective than any other group ever in the history of the church in stirring up dialogue and getting those that haven't though much about the issues they bring up to rethink some of the church leadership policies. Just look at the threads and number of responses. When things like this come up, I often try and put myself in the other person's situation. I wonder what would happen if the women held all the leadership roles in the church and the men were sidelined to jobs only "appropriate to their skills." Would the men be passive about this situation? Would they quietly present a letter to the women leaders of the church asking them to reconsider the policy? I have a feeling probably not. So to all the men that are out there scoffing at the OW movement and their approach, this sunday, close your eyes and envision all the ward leadership being women and the church only allowing a mens program, but under the direction and control of the women leaders. The women leaders would get the final say in who runs the men's program. The women leaders would have complete control over the ward, stake and the entire church. Hummm. wonder how that would go over with the men..
mfbukowski Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 More examples from the 2012 conference, I picked the two with similar titles. One talk, https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/aaronic-priesthood-arise-and-use-the-power-of-god?lang=eng To the girls https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/now-is-the-time-to-arise-and-shine?lang=eng Even the titles show the problem. Arise and use the power of God vs Arise and shine. Again, an active verb for the boys, and another immeasurable adjective for the girls. The boys, again, are talked to in dynamic words with much more clearly defined goals and an pro-active way to attain them. Girls are assigned fuzzy attributes, they are to be a "standard." This again, implies that a girl's value is in what others see. Again, appearance is discussed, along with make-up, and her purpose is to be watched. But boys are to actively help others to the Savior. They have the power to speak so that others will feel the undeniable truth of Christ. The difference between above and what girls are told below is startling. It is all about dependency (not that that is a bad thing, of course, but at some point they need a talk that tells them they have the power to go out and speak with power as well.) Compare this passive instruction to... As boys are urged to study and seek to use the power of God to receive answers and help others, girls are encouraged to use their pamphlet to determine what is wrong with them so they can repent! Again, the message for girls is "moral purity" and getting to the temple. Doing your own genealogy is added. The focus for girls is almost always inward. Boys above, girls below.Now there were a couple of more stirring passages at the very end of the girl's talk... But none of this was fleshed out, the adjectives girls are to aspire to are never really defined to the degree they can be measured and evaluated (except by other people's opinions.) The girls seem to be taught through negative statements a good deal of the time. This is the fourth talk I have read, and I find it easy to see why females don't feel like they can ever be good enough.I disagree with your interpretations and characterizations of what is being said. I believe that men and women have different inborn talents and needs and ways of seeing the world which are complementary. I have no objections to the characterizations in these talks.
mfbukowski Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 There is a huge variation in my experience without OW in the picture at all.I know women who believe or have been told they are not to stand with their husbands or give any blessings to their children on their own, even just by putting their hands on them and praying...only allowed to ask in prayers (nothing that looks like a priesthood blessing, one might hold the child in one's arms and give a silent prayer). Iirc, Tacenda said this was what she thought before. I find this very sad myself and hope that at the very least we become better at sharing what is allowed (it is kind of like many refuse to say anything bout the temple anywhere but the temple instead of the very limited restrictions stated...though of course the rest one treats with respect and doesn't treat it as open discussion any time, any place).If it's not prohibited, it's "allowed". We need to do what we think is right and not be timid about it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a woman touching someone and praying for them, that they will receive blessings. Human touch is a wondrous thing. We need to be less timid about these matters and follow the spirit. 1
mfbukowski Posted July 1, 2014 Posted July 1, 2014 When things like this come up, I often try and put myself in the other person's situation. I wonder what would happen if the women held all the leadership roles in the church and the men were sidelined to jobs only "appropriate to their skills." Would the men be passive about this situation? Would they quietly present a letter to the women leaders of the church asking them to reconsider the policy? I have a feeling probably not.And why not? You already know the answer and have just tacitly admitted to this very point. There are differences between men and women. If we didn't like it, we would start our own religion.
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