Reasons Wrongly Given Why Women Don't Have The Priesthood

[mfbukowski]

8. Priesthood is just to serve other people. The personal blessings bestowed on individuals holding the priesthood (in countless Gen. Conf. talks) are given to women who don't have the priesthood so nobody should think those blessings are any big deal. (That may not be what it said but it is certainly what is heard.)

CFR for evdence to the contrary,that it gives blessings not available to women

[Calm]

CFR for evdence to the contrary,that it gives blessings not available to women

Why are these blessings used as a reaon to eagerly seek out the Priesthood for men if it doesn't make a difference for blessings? If good men could receive them just the same without the Priesthood ? (not a rhetorical question, am very interested in the answer)

[juliann]

CFR for evdence to the contrary,that it gives blessings not available to women

You know quite well there are no talks saying what blessings are not available to women...aside from the priesthood itself.   So CFR for talks to girls that match what is promised to boys in Priesthood sessions.  I'd start by comparing Elder Cook's talk to girls  a year or so ago in which he said he didn't even need to meet a girl to know her character if you went through her purse (and that is not intended as a criticism)  with what was told to boys.

 

Quite seriously, that is where it smacks you in the face. We just don't put talks to boys and girls side by side for comparison.

[mfbukowski]

Why are these blessings used as a reaon to eagerly seek out the Priesthood for men if it doesn't make a difference for blessings? If good men could receive them just the same without the Priesthood ? (not a rhetorical question, am very interested in the answer)

I have never eagerly sought the priesthood so I really don't know. I was ordained as an adult, and what it meant to me was more responsibility and a heavier calling.  I guess you are talking about deacons who want to "grow up" and prove it by wanting to be teachers and priests, so they can play with the "big boys"

 

I frankly have never heard of anyone seeking the priesthood because they get "more blessings" than others.

 

I would ask anyone else here if they have.  Yes, more responsibility, yes you get to go with the Elders and not talk about "baby stuff" anymore, but more blessings?

 

Never heard of such a thing.  Does a Weblo have more blessings than a wolf cub scout?  No.  Is it "cooler" to have a higher rank?  Of course.  You get to wear a different badge so everyone knows you are not a little kid anymore.  You get to be an Elder so you can go to the temple and go on a mission.  It is a rite of passage, but no one ever teaches you get "more blessings" for a higher priesthood.

[mfbukowski]

You know quite well there are no talks saying what blessings are not available to women...aside from the priesthood itself.   So CFR for talks to girls that match what is promised to boys in Priesthood sessions.  I'd start by comparing Elder Cook's talk to girls  a year or so ago in which he said he didn't even need to meet a girl to know her character if you went through her purse (and that is not intended as a criticism)  with what was told to boys.

 

Quite seriously, that is where it smacks you in the face. We just don't put talks to boys and girls side by side for comparison.

That match what? 

 

He could have said you know the character of a boy if you go through his pockets/bedroom/possessions.  We generally don't carry purses, but really should.  My pockets generally are bulging and love Sundays because I get to carry a briefcase, which I could during the week, but I tend to lose them because I am not used to carrying them.

 

In my briefcase, I have an android tablet, and some nutrition bars and a notebook with lots of papers needed for my calling.   I am a survival nut so I actually carry equipment with me wherever I go to enable me to start a fire, a small serviceable knife and a small multi-tool.  In another pocket I carry breath mints, and medications and actually some compact tinder and an emergency whistle for signaling in the event of an earthquake.  I also carry a small flashlight because I tend to open and close buildings and turn off the lights or turn on lights.  I also carry an emergency pen so I always have something to write with, and my calendar so I can keep track of where I am supposed to be and when to be there.

 

In my wallet are my credit cards- one from my company and a couple of others.  I have my temple recommend with me

 

Does that say a bit about me?

[Stone holm]

You know quite well there are no talks saying what blessings are not available to women...aside from the priesthood itself.   So CFR for talks to girls that match what is promised to boys in Priesthood sessions.  I'd start by comparing Elder Cook's talk to girls  a year or so ago in which he said he didn't even need to meet a girl to know her character if you went through her purse (and that is not intended as a criticism)  with what was told to boys.

 

Quite seriously, that is where it smacks you in the face. We just don't put talks to boys and girls side by side for comparison.

Actually, before my first wife died she did something like that. She compared the Programs for the boys (we had 6) with the programs for our daughter, and decided the latter were clearly inferior. She then worked hard at changing and improving the girls programs so they were more like the boys. If a program in the Church for youth, she held just about every leadership position a woman could hold in the Ward, had design flaws she just fixed them. She didn't raise a hullabaloo, and she didn't always ask permission, she just fixed the design flaw as best she could. Nobody in our Ward back then seriously questioned the fact that women were running the Church, and no Bishop or Branch President or Stake President was stupid enough to get in their way. I don't know what she would think if she hadn't died in '88. Her daughter is now a pediatrician who when taking aptitude tests tends to score like a man, she spent a year at BYU and came away totally disgusted with the shallowness of the young women their avidly seeking to obtain their MRS degree. On the other hand she and her two sons are inactive. I think right now we are simply reaping the whirlwind of getting culturally calcified in the 1950's, but could be wrong.

[mfbukowski]

As we have said before, women actually have greater blessings pronounced on them than the men in the temple.

Is that sexist?

Of course no one will answer that one.

Edited June 29, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

If we dropped scouts, the YM and YW would be very similar.

[Calm]

If by sexist, you mean differentiation by sex, yes. If you mean by sexist, the elevation of one sex over the other. No...neither is male only Priesthood inherently sexist in that way though it too differentiated.

Like most good things either blessing can be misused.

[Calm]

He could have said you know the character of a boy if you go through his pockets/bedroom/possessions.

?

But would he have?

Are the characters of men described by possessions often or by actions (not rhetorical questions)?

It is similar to the comment a woman gets the man she dresses for, one could say the same thing about men but is it ever done?

Edited June 29, 2014 by calmoriah

[mfbukowski]

If by sexist, you mean differentiation by sex, yes. If you mean by sexist, the elevation of one sex over the other. No...neither is male only Priesthood inherently sexist in that way though it too differentiated.

Like most good things either blessing can be misused.

I really have a hard time understanding precisely what the term means with all its nuances, and it seems to be getting harder to understand than easier.

[Calm]

There is the meaning from the word itself and then the meaning which is attached to it..which changes all the time because language is a dynamic creation of changing human beings...but you know that.

[mfbukowski]

But would he have?

Are the characters of men described by possessions often or by actions (not rhetorical questions)?

It is similar to the comment a woman gets the man she dresses for, one could say the same thing about men but is it ever done?

Well I would say that doing a worthiness interview by going through a woman's purse is a tad unusual, so I am having a hard time understanding the point.

I can usually get fairly obtuse arguments in one reading, but this stuff just escapes me. It seems alien to the way I think.

[mfbukowski]

There is the meaning from the word itself and then the meaning which is attached to it..which changes all the time because language is a dynamic creation of changing human beings...but you know that.

I guess the vocabulary is alien to me so I suppose I need to read more to catch the nuances.

[Calm]

Just go undercover as a woman for a year or two. That would probably be most effective.

[Senator]

As we have said before, women actually have greater blessings pronounced on them than the men in the temple.

Is that sexist?

Of course no one will answer that one.

 

Without getting into details, where (in the temple ordinances) are these greater blessings given?

 

I wasn't aware of this.

[mfbukowski]

Just go undercover as a woman for a year or two. That would probably be most effective.

:rofl:

I think I have some pumps in the closet. 

 

But seriously, I think that kind of helps my point- in many ways men and women don't even speak the same language.

[Zakuska]

Just go undercover as a woman for a year or two. That would probably be most effective.

Men dressing up like women is frowned upon in the church. My bro. And his best friend dressed up like old grannys one year for halloween and did a mormon version of an eddy murphy routine. The bishop wasn't amused and sent them home to change. Edited June 29, 2014 by Zakuska

[Stone holm]

If we dropped scouts, the YM and YW would be very similar.

True, so you would achieve parity by degrading the YM's program?

[Zakuska]

:rofl:

I think I have some pumps in the closet.

But seriously, I think that kind of helps my point- in many ways men and women don't even speak the same language.

a couple that is spiritually in tune with each other speak perfect Adamic.

True, so you would achieve parity by degrading the YM's program?

Just add girlscouts instead. Edited June 29, 2014 by Zakuska

[Rain]

Men dressing up like women is frowned upon in the church. My bro. And his best friend dressed up like old grannys one year for halloween and did a mormon version of an eddy murphy routine. The bishop wasn't amused and sent them home to change.

when I was activities chairman the handbook said this shouldn't be done, but it didn't mention men specifically. It said it shouldn't be done for either gender at ward activities. Don't know what the CHI says now.

[mfbukowski]

True, so you would achieve parity by degrading the YM's program?

Where did I say that? 

 

I fail to see the spiritual value of scouts, but it is good leadership training.  Let's give the sisters leadership training.

[mfbukowski]

when I was activities chairman the handbook said this shouldn't be done, but it didn't mention men specifically. It said it shouldn't be done for either gender at ward activities. Don't know what the CHI says now.

It says the same- I was joking.  Honestly I do not have pumps in the closet except maybe some spare parts in case the sump pump breaks down.

[Stone holm]

Where did I say that? 

 

I fail to see the spiritual value of scouts, but it is good leadership training.  Let's give the sisters leadership training.

Why would you want to give young women leadership training they already enjoy the benefits of the priesthood. Oh did you mean like home economics.

[juliann]

:rofl:

I think I have some pumps in the closet. 

 

But seriously, I think that kind of helps my point- in many ways men and women don't even speak the same language.

As long as we are all human beings, we are more alike than different.

 

Here is what I would really like you to compare and analyze.  It can only be done by finding a principle taught to boys and comparing a similar one taught to girls if you really want to see the difference. One talk to the Aaronic Priesthood https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/sacred-keys-of-the-aaronic-priesthood?lang=engand the three talks to girls at the Women's session in 2011. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2011/04/i-believe-in-being-honest-and-true?lang=eng   I use all of the talks to demonstrate this is not unusual.

 

The talk to the boys is one of my all time favorites. I am so grateful my grandson will be hearing this. The boys are being guided to discover their own answers, the girls are being told what they are and what they should be rather than being expected to actively discover it.  

 

All this means is that what girls are told needs to be enhanced. It is an easy fix because it is already being done for boys. This year's Women's Session was a vast improvement. None of what is being taught is wrong, or bad, it is just our traditional way of speaking to girls and women.  To see why so many women are upset with the current treatment of women, this is a good beginning. These are only examples. For those that only want to argue about women's concerns, it is a useless exercise.

 

Now, I had never interpreted this scripture the way he did, but then, he held sacred keys that I did not have. I was being taught by a 13-year-old deacons quorum president about the revelatory power that comes to those with the sacred keys of presidency regardless of their intellect, stature, or age.

 

 

A few weeks ago I learned an important lesson from a Laurel who was the youth speaker in my ward. I was touched as she confidently taught and testified of Jesus Christ. She concluded her remarks with this statement: “When I make Jesus Christ the center of my life, my day goes better, I’m kinder to my loved ones, and I am filled with joy.”

 

There is an overriding emphasis on the girls' needing to feel good throughout these talks while the boys' actions and responsibility are emphasized.   These are subtle things and again, it is only for those who really do want to understand what the fuss is about.  What is subtle becomes less subtle when it is said over and over and over.

 

Girls look toward the future....

 

"Your years in Young Women will prepare you for the temple. There you will receive the blessings to which you are entitled as a precious daughter of God."

 

 

Boys do it now.

 

A deacon is appointed to watch over and be a standing minister in the Church (see D&C 84:111).

 

Girls need guardians and help,

 

Young women, your fathers, your mothers, your bishops, and so many others will be your guardians as you walk your path to the temple. They will call out cautions and direct your course, and should you become injured or hurt or get off course, they will help you.

 

 

Boys are guardians...

Because the family is the basic unit of the Church, the most important setting in which an Aaronic Priesthood holder can fulfill this duty is in his own home. He provides priesthood service to his father and mother as they lead the family. He also watches over his brothers and sisters, the young men of his quorum, and the other members of the ward.

There is a lingering negativity throughout the girls' talks.  While the boys are presented above as the solution, girls are presented as part of the problem.

 Sometimes being benevolent is most difficult in our own families. Strong families require effort. “Be cheerful, helpful, and considerate of others. Many problems in the home are created because family members speak and act selfishly or unkindly. Concern yourself with the needs of other family members. Seek to be a peacemaker rather than to tease, fight, and quarrel.”⁹ “Remember this: kindness begins with me.”

 

 

This is exacerbated because adjectives can't be measured, particularly kindness which isn't easy to evaluate and will usually end up being determined by others.   Again, not a problem...unless this is the majority of what is expected of girls.

 

A very exciting development is the new curriculum.  Here is a side by side comparison of the new priesthood lessons. You can see they are removing quite a bit of the passive language directed to girls.

 

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B5IILxCHTVLueHpLbld5SVU5N0E/edit

 

For example, what are the duties of the priesthood holder has been changed to what are my responsiibilies in the work of the priesthood.   A quote from Pres. Dalton's talk (above) has been removed.

 

There are already encouraging improvements

Edited June 30, 2014 by juliann