Dear Evangelical Friends: Can A Mormon Be A Christian?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Right, when his spirit, which pre-existed, was joined to his body, Adam became a living soul. And when his spirit, which pre-existed, left his body, he died.

 

True, but that doesn't mean that he did not exist in spirit.

Nope, it doesn't mean that at all.

 

Your argument is based upon faulty logic.

It is from silence in that NO WHERE does it say that the spirit of man did not exist prior to entering the body.

(BTW, Heb 2 clearly indicates that, just like the spirit of Christ pre-existed His mortal birth, so our spirits, also pre-existed our mortal birth.)

I would also bring up the man that was born blind. Peter asked the Savior if his parents did sin or this man sin that he was born blind. When did this man sin if he never existed before birth? Why would Peter ask such a thing if it was not Jewish custom to believe in a premortal existence.

[teddyaware]

You call it quarreling? I don't. To me it's a discussion, and in any discussion where two people disagree, there will be disagreements. However, without a discussion, we may never know why we disagree. 

 

To me it's not a negative thing. I learn the most from people I disagree with. 

 

If we agreed on everything, we wouldn't be having a discussion about the points we disagree about. 

 

For example, you use the word, "ultimately" as in "God is the one who ultimately inspires and empowers His saints to do His will…"

I've heard many LDS say it this way. I wouldn't use the word ultimately. I would just say it's God who does everything, all we ever do is let him. It's his Universe, and all the forces therein, it's his Oxygen, etc. etc… The very fact that we are able to do anything is by his design and grace. So, not only does he inspire and empower, but he does everything else too. All we do is let him. As Jesus said, "Why call me good? Only God is good."

And in the deeper mysteries of LDS theology and soteriology, that is the very reason why we believe men can become like God...

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Revelation 3)

Edited November 4, 2014 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

Ignoring Jesus' instructions to us does not invite Him in nor changes us.

I beg to differ with you. We can and do change ourselves. Jesus magnifies our efforts.

If Jesus is the only one that can change us, then if someone does not change, then it is Jesus' fault, and by extension, all who end up in hell are there because Jesus did not try hard enough.

 

We think we are changing ourself. That is a self deception in my opinion. 

 

Jesus is the only one that can change us, yet he won't do it if we don't want him to. People end up in hell only because of their rejection of Christ. As a result of this attitude of rejection, nothing changes in their hearts or lives. 

[danielwoods]

Right, when his spirit, which pre-existed, was joined to his body, Adam became a living soul. And when his spirit, which pre-existed, left his body, he died.

 

True, but that doesn't mean that he did not exist in spirit.

Nope, it doesn't mean that at all.

 

Your argument is based upon faulty logic.

It is from silence in that NO WHERE does it say that the spirit of man did not exist prior to entering the body.

(BTW, Heb 2 clearly indicates that, just like the spirit of Christ pre-existed His mortal birth, so our spirits, also pre-existed our mortal birth.)

 

 

Your argument from silence isn't worth responding to, because it's just like making up stories that aren't even real. 

 

I'm interested in what the text teaches. It plainly teaches that man was made alive at that moment, and before that, did not exist. 

 

Please cite where it states in Heb. 2 that our spirits pre-existed... 

[Anakin7]

    Read Hammerton Kelly's Book - Pre - Existence, Wisdom, Son of Man in The New Testement. Do google search for his Awesome Book.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

[Flyonthewall]

We think we are changing ourself. That is a self deception in my opinion. 

 

Jesus is the only one that can change us, yet he won't do it if we don't want him to. People end up in hell only because of their rejection of Christ. As a result of this attitude of rejection, nothing changes in their hearts or lives.

This is a heresy. This is not what Jesus taught.

Matthew 18:3

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He did not teach: "Except I make you as little children...", He taught that WE have to become as little children. We have to change, and He will magnify our efforts... but not without our efforts.

Luke 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus did not teach: "When I Have converted you...", He taught that we have to be converted. A change of our heart must come from within.

Jesus will help in our efforts.

Otherwise Jesus is to blame for any and all that do not change.

[Vance]

Read Hammerton Kelly's Book - Pre - Existence, Wisdom, Son of Man in The New Testement. Do google search for his Awesome Book.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

http://books.google.com/books/about/Pre_Existence_Wisdom_and_The_Son_of_Man.html?id=wl2KExhVa8wC

Once again, modern scholars finally catch up to what God revealed to Joseph Smith. Funny how that works.

[teddyaware]

This is a heresy. This is not what Jesus taught.

Matthew 18:3

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He did not teach: "Except I make you as little children...", He taught that WE have to become as little children. We have to change, and He will magnify our efforts... but not without our efforts.

Luke 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus did not teach: "When I Have converted you...", He taught that we have to be converted. A change of our heart must come from within.

Jesus will help in our efforts.

Otherwise Jesus is to blame for any and all that do not change.

Hi Fly: Part of the problem here is that Evangelicals rely heavily on Paul's teachings, and even Peter himself warned the saints of his day the Paul was easily misunderstood, especially by the unstable and unlearned, and that this common phenomenon of misconstruing Paul's difficult to understand teachings was going to end up sending many Church members to destruction. Significantly, Peter's warnings about the ease with which Paul's esoteric teachings can lead the unwary astray is given right in the middle of a warning in his second epistle that the saints must be careful to be obedient to the Lord's commandments if they expect to exalted. Here is Peter's solemn and unambiguous warning:

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness. (2 Peter 3)

Because it is so delightful to the mind of the natural man to imagine that nothing beyond belief in Christ is required in order to be saved, it will be difficult to dissuade those who misunderstand Paul to let go of a gospel that requires no obedience or personal spiritual progress.

Edited November 5, 2014 by teddyaware

[Anakin7]

       From my LDS Kryptonian Archives on Paul and Romans -   http://www.14lds.com/rome.htm

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

[Vance]

Please cite where it states in Heb. 2 that our spirits pre-existed...

Did Jesus' spirit pre-exist?

Or was He like us, in that, (as you claim) "that (He) was made alive at that moment (when His spirit entered His body), and before that, did not exist?

Edited November 5, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

I suspect that you are not grasping the inconsistencies in your logic. 

 

So, Jesus was not a "mortal man". Then how did He die?

Jesus was both God (100% and mortal man)

It was his nature, being sinless.

1 Pet 1:19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Yes we agree on this.

Which is figurative speech, not literal.

BTW, an infinite amount of time lapsed long BEFORE "the foundations of the Earth" were laid.

Not really relevant, but no we don't agree on this.

[danielwoods]

I would also bring up the man that was born blind. Peter asked the Savior if his parents did sin or this man sin that he was born blind. When did this man sin if he never existed before birth? Why would Peter ask such a thing if it was not Jewish custom to believe in a premortal existence.

Not sure it was Jewish custom or not, but they said to him, "34 ...Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out." (Jn.9:34)

Notice it doesn't say, "You sinned before you were born." Or it doesn't say, "You sinned in your preexistence." Rather it states that he was "born in sins." Which, in their opinion, resulted in his blindness.

My only point in quoting this verse is that the NT doesn't teach preexistence.

[danielwoods]

We think we are changing ourself. That is a self deception in my opinion. 

 

Jesus is the only one that can change us, yet he won't do it if we don't want him to. People end up in hell only because of their rejection of Christ. As a result of this attitude of rejection, nothing changes in their hearts or lives. 

 

 

This is a heresy. This is not what Jesus taught.

Matthew 18:3

3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

He did not teach: "Except I make you as little children...", He taught that WE have to become as little children. We have to change, and He will magnify our efforts... but not without our efforts.

Luke 22:32

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Jesus did not teach: "When I Have converted you...", He taught that we have to be converted. A change of our heart must come from within.

Jesus will help in our efforts.

Otherwise Jesus is to blame for any and all that do not change.

 

What is conversion? As you stated, a change of heart must come from within. I agree. 

 

Does Jesus help our efforts? Of course. 

 

I don't think we disagree, actually, what I think happens is we don't realize how much he actually does. 

[danielwoods]

Did Jesus' spirit pre-exist?

Or was He like us, in that, (as you claim) "that (He) was made alive at that moment (when His spirit entered His body), and before that, did not exist?

 

Jesus is God, and has always been Eternally God. So, of course he pre-existed. 

[Vance]

Jesus was both God (100% and mortal man)

So, as a "mortal man" He came into being just like every other mortal man?

Not really relevant, but no we don't agree on this.

So, Jesus was dead "before the foundations of the Earth"?

When did He become alive?

[Vance]

Jesus is God, and has always been Eternally God. So, of course he pre-existed.

Ok, so two things.

1) This totally destroys your own argument that we could not pre-exist.

2) This, combined with Heb 2, clearly indicates that we did indeed pre-exist.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

. . .

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

If Jesus pre-exited, THEN we pre-existed!!!

Edited November 5, 2014 by Vance

[danielwoods]

So, as a "mortal man" He came into being just like every other mortal man?

He put on humanity, as it states in Philippians.

 

So, Jesus was dead "before the foundations of the Earth"?

When did He become alive?

Not exactly. God had foreordained our redemption "before the foundations of the Earth" were made.

 

 

 

 

Ok, so two things.

1) This totally destroys your own argument that we could not pre-exist.

2) This, combined with Heb 2, clearly indicates that we did indeed pre-exist.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

. . .

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

If Jesus pre-exited, THEN we pre-existed!!!

by this logic we also created all things. Wow! That's cool!

 

 

 

(too bad it's not what the NT teaches)

 

The NT teaches that only Jesus pre-existed because he was God in the flesh. It never teaches that we also pre-existed, it never references our preexistence in anyway. 

[Vance]

He put on humanity, as it states in Philippians.

So, then what you are saying is what Heb 2 says is false?

And that He really wasn't a real human.

Got it.

 

Not exactly. God had foreordained our redemption "before the foundations of the Earth" were made.

So, like I said, it was figurative not literal.

 

by this logic we also created all things. Wow! That's cool!

Now you are being silly again. It is talking about how he was a "partaker of flesh and blood" just like us.

 

(too bad it's not what the NT teaches)

So, the NT doesn't teach what it says???

Oh, right, I get it. It doesn't mean what it says because you don't believe it.

 

The NT teaches that only Jesus pre-existed because he was God in the flesh. It never teaches that we also pre-existed, it never references our preexistence in anyway.

LOL!!!

I just demonstrated an example where it does teach that. And that isn't the only example available. Plus, as shown above, modern scholars are coming around to agreeing that the NT does teach pre-existence.

AND!

NOWHERE does is say that Jesus is the ONLY one that pre-existed. Whoops there goes "sola scriptura" under your anti-Mormon bus, . . . Again.

[Anakin7]

     To all Pro or Con on this topic go to  - http://yorkshiretales.com/allaboutmormonism/  scroll down 1/4 of the way and look on the index on the left for articles/papers defending the LDS True Doctrine/concept of Salvation and Baptism for the Dead. An awesome read.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

            Anakin7

Edited November 6, 2014 by Anakin7

[coolrok7]

What kind of authority are these links (Anakin7) in the Mormon Church?

(by the way I've been home sick the last couple of days and haven't been up to responding)

Edited November 6, 2014 by coolrok7

[Anakin7]

       Sorry for your illness coolrok I hope and Pray that you are better.These links are from Orthodox/Faithfull Members of the LDS Church /Faith who show through True Doctrinal channels [The Holy Scriptures] True LDS Doctrine/Teaching/Thought/Practice/Run/Walk in things regarding LDS. And its "The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints" not "Mormon Church". True Grace coolrok not cheap grace. May True Grace be with you and those you Love.

 

In His Eternal Debt/Grace

             Anakin7

Edited November 6, 2014 by Anakin7

[danielwoods]

So, then what you are saying is what Heb 2 says is false?

And that He really wasn't a real human.

Got it.

the NT teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully man/human.

 

So, like I said, it was figurative not literal.

 

Now you are being silly again. It is talking about how he was a "partaker of flesh and blood" just like us.

Silliness is thinking that we are equal to God, using that verse to say that we are like him. It doesn't say that, rather, that he put on humanity to be like us.

 

So, the NT doesn't teach what it says???

Oh, right, I get it. It doesn't mean what it says because you don't believe it.

 

LOL!!!

I just demonstrated an example where it does teach that. And that isn't the only example available. Plus, as shown above, modern scholars are coming around to agreeing that the NT does teach pre-existence.

AND!

NOWHERE does is say that Jesus is the ONLY one that pre-existed. Whoops there goes "sola scriptura" under your anti-Mormon bus, . . . Again.

You haven't done as you claimed. Heb. 2 doesn't state that all humans were preexistent, only Jesus. 

 

Your arguments from silence can be used to prove anything you want, as a result they are meaningless. 

[Vance]

the NT teaches that Jesus was fully God and fully man/human.

No, it doesn't. It teaches that the man Jesus was divine. The difference is that there is no false dichotomy between being human and being divine.

Silliness is thinking that we are equal to God, using that verse to say that we are like him.

The silliness is claiming that you believe the Bible while denying what it clearly and plainly teaches.

It doesn't say that, rather, that he put on humanity to be like us.

It says what it says. You not believing what it says is not my problem. 

You haven't done as you claimed. Heb. 2 doesn't state that all humans were preexistent, only Jesus.

No, it does not say that at all. NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that.

It says that, just like us, He partook of flesh and blood. For us to partake of flesh and blood we MUST HAVE pre-existed to do the partaking.

It is OBVIOUS to anyone with an open mind.

 

Your arguments from silence can be used to prove anything you want, as a result they are meaningless.

And so are yours.

No where does it say that Jesus is the only human to pre-exist. So, you too, are arguing from silence.

A bit hypocritical don't you think?

[Vance]

http://books.google.com/books/about/Pre_Existence_Wisdom_and_The_Son_of_Man.html?id=wl2KExhVa8wC

Once again, modern scholars finally catch up to what God revealed to Joseph Smith. Funny how that works.

Daniel,

I notice that you have studiously avoided this book. Why is that?

[Anakin7]

    Vance and why does he not click on to the Contents Chapters to read on the above link ?.

 

In His Debt/Grace

       Anakin7

Edited November 6, 2014 by Anakin7