Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication

[Zakuska]

She figured out what needed to be done first, and did it... Adam (and men) apparently needed to learn how to lead, and the best way to learn something, is to do it   The guys obviously need help, so women were given the role of trying to help them.

There was GREAT wisdom in the saying... "It is not good from man to be alone".  Us men get into too much trouble when we are left alone.

 

Ever heard the saying... "behind every great man there is even a greater woman?!" I find that absolutley true... from mothers to wifes to sisters. Name me one Accomplishment made by man where a woman wasnt right there in the mix some how providing the support and helping him along.  I think that can also go for women as well.  We are Help Meets after all. And I thank God daily for a Patient understanding wife that puts up with way more than she deserves from me.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

The first was a bit of speculation based on the arguments on the topic in wikipedia (I know, not the best source) but that's why I left it as speculation rather than fact. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoebe_(Bible)

 

The second was clearly written as my own opinion and so needs no sustainable references.  But I stand by my opinion.  If God speaks directly (thus saith the Lord) I think he has a little more objectivity than to be swayed by the culture of the day.

However, if I want to state something as clear fact to defend the Church I will be sure to back it up with references.  Thanks for the reminder.

Lets not forget something here, that JS practice polygamy. Hardly a "cultural" practice of the day. And he even "married" or was sealed to other men's wives. Which is hardly a common practice.  If JS could receive those revelation what on earth makes people think that he could not receive a revelation for women receiving the priesthood. It never happened. Why? Culture? That is not a very compelling reason.

 

BTW, JS even ordained blacks to the priesthood. Another thing that in the day was not very culturally accepted.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[ERayR]

There was GREAT wisdom in the saying... "It is not good from man to be alone".  Us men get into too much trouble when we are left alone.

 

Ever heard the saying... "behind every great man there is even a greater woman?!" I find that absolutley true... from mothers to wifes to sisters. Name me one Accomplishment made by man where a woman wasnt right there in the mix some how providing the support and helping him along.  I think that can also go for women as well.  We are Help Meets after all. And I thank God daily for a Patient understanding wife that puts up with way more than she deserves from me.

 

Ever heard the saying... "behind every great man there is even a greater woman?!" I find that absolutley true... from mothers to wifes to sisters. Name me one Accomplishment made by man where a woman wasnt right there in the mix some how providing the support and helping him along.  I think that can also go for women as well.  We are Help Meets after all. And I thank God daily for a Patient understanding wife that puts up with way more than she deserves from me.

 

With woman being about 50% of the population it is hard for there not to be at least one in the mix of any accomplishment.  That is as it should be.

Edited June 17, 2014 by ERayR

[Scott Lloyd]

Lets not forget something here, that JS practice polygamy. Hardly a "cultural" practice of the day. And he even "married" or was sealed to other men's wives. Which is hardly a common practice.  If JS could receive those revelation what on earth makes people think that he could not receive a revelation for women receiving the priesthood. It never happened. Why? Culture? That is not a very compelling reason.

 

BTW, JS even ordained blacks to the priesthood. Another thing that in the day was not very culturally accepted.

Once we get started, we could probably highlight quite a number counter-cultural precepts he propounded: corporeality of God, separate and distinctness of the Godhead, ongoing revelation, latter-day scripture are a few that come to mind.

[Brian 2.0]

There was GREAT wisdom in the saying... "It is not good from man to be alone".  Us men get into too much trouble when we are left alone.

 

Ever heard the saying... "behind every great man there is even a greater woman?!" I find that absolutley true... from mothers to wifes to sisters. Name me one Accomplishment made by man where a woman wasnt right there in the mix some how providing the support and helping him along.  I think that can also go for women as well.  We are Help Meets after all. And I thank God daily for a Patient understanding wife that puts up with way more than she deserves from me.

 

So Eve figured out what needed to be done and did it (a praiseworthy thing by Mormon doctrine) and by so doing excluded herself (and all women after her) from the Priesthood and became subject to her husband?  She really took one for the team by doing what needed to be done.

[Zakuska]

Have you seen the newest film?  I thought Eve was portrayed as a more powerful figure in it... just my opinion.  

I wish there were more stories of powerful women in the scriptures.  Our oldest daughter is going through some real tought times right now with peers and such and it would help to be able to really on such stories.

[Zakuska]

So Eve figured out what needed to be done and did it (a praiseworthy thing by Mormon doctrine) and by so doing excluded herself (and all women after her) from the Priesthood and became subject to her husband?  She really took one for the team by doing what needed to be done.

 

 

"Greater love hath no WO-man than this... "

 

She accepted the consiquences for a greater good. She accepted death after all and thats about as bad as you can get. I think that took great courage and faith for her to do what she did. Adam was too chicken and blindly following his honey-do list from God.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[bluebell]

So Eve figured out what needed to be done and did it (a praiseworthy thing by Mormon doctrine) and by so doing excluded herself (and all women after her) from the Priesthood and became subject to her husband? She really took one for the team by doing what needed to be done.

Apparently she's not the only one to throw herself under the bus for the benefit of all mankind, but all women after her as well.

Should this line of reasoning be true....

[The Nehor]

I wish there were more stories of powerful women in the scriptures.  Our oldest daughter is going through some real tought times right now with peers and such and it would help to be able to really on such stories.

I recommend Deborah and Esther.

[changed]

So Eve figured out what needed to be done and did it (a praiseworthy thing by Mormon doctrine) and by so doing excluded herself (and all women after her) from the Priesthood and became subject to her husband?  She really took one for the team by doing what needed to be done.

Jesus really took one for the team too, but then that is what Christianity is all about, sacrifice, love, and selflessness.  

[The Nehor]

Apparently she's not the only one to throw herself under the bus for the benefit of all mankind, but all women after her as well.

Should this line of reasoning be true....

I am not seeing how this put anyone under a bus.

[changed]

I wish there were more stories of powerful women in the scriptures.  Our oldest daughter is going through some real tought times right now with peers and such and it would help to be able to really on such stories.

I find some of the best stories come from family history work.

My dad's mom raised 9 kids as a single mom (well, single after my alcoholic grandfather finally left)... she worked night shifts as a janitor, and came home to be a mom during the day.  One of the kids was mentally handicapped.  She is Catholic, and believes birth control is wrong.  She once took on a whole football team that was after my dad with a rolling pin and curlers in her hair, and won.  She took on a stadium full of drunk cursing college students once when I was with her, stood up and told everyone not to cuss, and they stopped and apologized to her - she was one tuff mama.  On the other side I have my cookies and ice-cream grandmother, the one who adopted all of the cousins when WW2 broke out and others in the family could not handle it.  I have never heard her raise her voice, and no one will fight in front of her, because it would break her heart and everyone loves her too much.  

Think about your family history - every family has stuff like this, all the oldies lived through wars and history,  everyone has pioneers of one sort or another in their family, there is strength in that.  The blood that runs through our veins has all of history behind it to strengthen us, people who sacrificed for us, people who went under the bus for us... that is all the scriptures are too, a record of families, family trees, and how they survived through it all.   

Edited June 17, 2014 by changed

[Buzzard]

No.  The record is held by the west temple easement through temple square. Which lasted through 3 iterations and version of the board.

I wasn't around for that, I presume you meant the Main Street easement? Heck, I heard about that even in SoCal. Did Rocky Anderson get a profile and weigh in? That would have been delicious. 

[Zakuska]

I wasn't around for that, I presume you meant the Main Street easement? Heck, I heard about that even in SoCal. Did Rocky Anderson get a profile and weigh in? That would have been delicious. 

Yes.  I think that thread was up in the 200s+. It may be in the archives somewhere.  I think some one made a profile for a Rockie Anderson ( i dont think it was him) and so many people jumped on the thread to put in their 2 cents  that the Mods had to close it down for a couple days.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[JLHPROF]

Lets not forget something here, that JS practice polygamy. Hardly a "cultural" practice of the day. And he even "married" or was sealed to other men's wives. Which is hardly a common practice.  If JS could receive those revelation what on earth makes people think that he could not receive a revelation for women receiving the priesthood. It never happened. Why? Culture? That is not a very compelling reason.

 

BTW, JS even ordained blacks to the priesthood. Another thing that in the day was not very culturally accepted.

 

This is the most damning evidence against women being ordained.  Not that there is a commandment one way or another, but that there is no record in modern revelation of a woman being called to a priesthood office by God. 

And since we have numerous records of God speaking and directly calling men to priesthood offices that absence of his ever calling a woman to an office in revelation can't be dismissed as cultural bias, since an eternal God wouldn't have a cultural bias.

[JLHPROF]

 

"Greater love hath no WO-man than this... "

 

She accepted the consiquences for a greater good. She accepted death after all and thats about as bad as you can get. I think that took great courage and faith for her to do what she did. Adam was too chicken and blindly following his honey-do list from God.

 

 

Apparently she's not the only one to throw herself under the bus for the benefit of all mankind, but all women after her as well.

Should this line of reasoning be true....

 

 

This line of reasoning moves nicely into the idea of Christ's "femine side" which has been a topic of discussion in many religious faiths.  Someone told me that in Gnostic religion "Pistis Sophia" or Sophia represented the femine side or Consort of Christ.  And of course Eve was the femine side/consort of Adam.  But I'm no expert at all on gnostic texts or the sacred feminine.  Still, interesting stuff.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

This is the most damning evidence against women being ordained.  Not that there is a commandment one way or another, but that there is no record in modern revelation of a woman being called to a priesthood office by God. 

And since we have numerous records of God speaking and directly calling men to priesthood offices that absence of his ever calling a woman to an office in revelation can't be dismissed as cultural bias, since an eternal God wouldn't have a cultural bias.

 

 

Per Quinn:

 

Two weeks after he organized the Female Relief Society of Nauvoo, Illinois, Joseph Smith announced his intention to confer priesthood on women. He told them on 30 March 1842 that “the Society should move according to the ancient Priesthood” and that he was “going to make of this Society a kingdom of priests as in Enoch’s day—as in Paul’s day.”⁴ In printing the original minutes of the prophet’s talk after his death, the official History of the Church omitted Joseph’s first use of the word “Society” and changed the second “Society” to “Church.” Those two alterations changed the entire meaning of his statement.⁵More recently an LDS general authority removed even these diminished statements from a display in the LDS Museum of Church History and Art which commemorated the sesquicentennial of the Relief Society.⁶

^<snip>

Mormon women did not request priesthood—Joseph Smith would soon confer it on them as part of the restoration of the gospel. His private journal, called the Book of the Law of the Lord, specified the priesthood promise in his instructions to the women on 28 April 1842: “gave a lecture on the pries[t]hood shewing [sic] how the Sisters would come in possession of the privileges & blessings & gifts of the priesthood & that the signs should follow them. such as healing the sick casting out devils &c. & that they might attain unto these blessings. by a virtuous life & conversation & diligence in keeping all the commandments.” Joseph clearly intended that Mormon women in 1842 understand their healings were to be “gifts of the priesthood,” not simply ministrations of faith.¹¹

 

Perhaps no priesthood office, but we fall well short of Joseph's vision in the church today.

Edited June 17, 2014 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Zakuska]

I am not seeing how this put anyone under a bus.

Well Adam and Eve did die that day. Maybe it was the first "death by Bus" in recorded history?

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[Zakuska]

Per Quinn:

 

 

Perhaps no priesthood office, but we fall well short of Joseph's vision in the church today.

WOW! Now this is Good stuff! Gave you a rep for that and would give yo more if I could!

 

I hope the Mods will let me link this here, I think I have my next reading assignment!

 

http://signaturebookslibrary.org/?p=1171

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[Brian 2.0]

 

"Greater love hath no WO-man than this... "

 

She accepted the consiquences for a greater good. She accepted death after all and thats about as bad as you can get. I think that took great courage and faith for her to do what she did. Adam was too chicken and blindly following his honey-do list from God.

 

 

I've never heard that women cannot hold the priesthood due to Eve partaking of the fruit in the garden.

 

Do you have a reference for this beyond your interpretation of the temple film?

 

There might be some, I just have never heard it before.

[cdowis]

Read the article again.  They make no specific claim that the Lord made the restriction.  You are left to interpret it however you want, either from God or from Brigham Young.

 

You are absolutely ------ correct.  The article does not address the doctrinal basis of the ban.  As I understand, it was based strictly on historical research.  I think, perhaps wisely, the decision was made to defer a discussion on the doctrinal basis.

 

Unfortunately, many have missed that subtle point, and consider it a repudiation of the policy/ doctrine itself.  They totally missed the point.

Edited June 17, 2014 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

Per Quinn:

 

 

Perhaps no priesthood office, but we fall well short of Joseph's vision in the church today.

 

Yes, because Joseph's vision was for a temple society, and in a temple society we would be a nation of Kings & Priests and Queens and Priestess, where all were anointed.  He envisioned an Alma 13 society.

I don't believe (*opinion) that Joseph ever intended ordaining women as deacons, teachers, priests, elders, high priests.  I believe he was referring to the building of Zion as a temple society, and in the temple women have and exercise priesthood.  But only in a temple (non-fallen) environment.

Just my opinion on the apparent Joseph contradiction, but I 100% agree we fall short of Joseph's vision.  Imagine living in a temple based society.

Edited June 17, 2014 by JLHPROF

[Zakuska]

I've never heard that women cannot hold the priesthood due to Eve partaking of the fruit in the garden.

 

Do you have a reference for this beyond your interpretation of the temple film?

 

There might be some, I just have never heard it before.

Alas, I can only claim my personal studies, gut feeling and trying to sort things out on this.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[Calm]

Jesus really took one for the team too, but then that is what Christianity is all about, sacrifice, love, and selflessness.

And he was resurrected, received the fulness of Godhood and everything else.

Where is there any indication that by his choice he not only deprived himself, but all men of a fundamental blessing?

Where in all of scripture has someone been obedient to God, taken the leap of faith and for that leap been blessed by not only having the removal of a previously held blessing (if I understand you correctly) but ends up being placed under the dominion of another who did not exercise the same level of faith rather than being elevated and granted additional blessings and stewardship?

The line of reasoning that Eve was deprived of the Priesthood makes no sense in the context of everything else in the scriptures.

Edited June 17, 2014 by calmoriah

[Teancum]

Fanatics like KK rarely do.

Hmmmm. Perhaps some of the entrenched believers here could be viewed as fanatical in their view points as well. One's own fanaticism is hard to see.