Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication

[Duncan]

I don't see any distinction between roles and callings. Yet, so long as women are restricted from certain callings, they are BY DEFINITION treating "differently."

I always smile at how LDS women have the good grace to accept the argument of "separate but equal." I can't imagine how the Church ecould have tried to convince

 

 

are we not all supposed to be servants? I have no idea why women aren't financial clerks and men aren't primary presidents

[mormonnewb]

if LDS women want to stay home then let them, if they want to work outside the home it's up to them and not us to judge. In my growing up situation my Mom, who has 2 university degrees and my dad has none, stayed home to raise us and my dad worked. Sure she could have worked outside but she chose not to, we had nothing but everything. I know others whose Moms worked and that's fine for them, if that's their situation, it's theirs.

Please don't get me wrong. I applaud stay at home moms (and I better because I'm married to one).

[MorningStar]

Please don't get me wrong. I applaud stay at home moms (and I better because I'm married to one).

Do you applaud your wife every day when you get home?   

[JAHS]

Church Spokesperson Ally Isom will be interviewed tomorrow (Tues) on Radiowest to respond to questions about all this:

 

"Tuesday, we're continuing our conversation on discipline and excommunication in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Doug's guest for the hour is Ally Isom, Senior Manager of Public Affairs with the LDS Church."

 

http://radiowest.kuer.org/post/latter-day-saints-and-excommunication-part-ii

[mormonnewb]

DELETED ON GROUNDS THAT IT WAS NOT AT ALL HELPFUL TO THE DISCOURSE..

[Rain]

I'm not sure that I have any good answers (or even any really bad answers that I nevertheless feel passionate about). As a point of clarification, while LDS women are increasingly working outside of the home, they still stay at home at greater rates than the national average. So, ON AVERAGE, LDS women are LESS exposed to the worldly concept of "gender equality."

Also, while LDS women achieve college degrees at higher rates than average, it doesn't mean that they are more "exposed" to the broader issues of "gender equality." I don't expect that a typical young woman who graduates from one of our church schools is going to be steeped in ways of third wave feminism. Therefore, the greater rate of degree attainment does not necessarily translate into greater "enlightenment" on issues of gender equality.

Don't assume that we all have our heads in the sand. There are a whole lot of places to get this knowledge besides school and work. While some moms may be almost only involved with children for a short time there are an awful lot of us that continue to learn about the ways of the world.

It's interesting to me that the enlightenment doesn't really come the more I learn about feminism. It comes when I take what I am learning to the Lord.

[Scott Lloyd]

Here is what he actually said

 

 

Certainly "anything" is possible, but it must be thru revelation.  He was clearly making a PR statement, speaking to a reporter, and avoiding additional criticism of the church as he had done in other interviews.

 

This subject has been clarified by the church in recent official statements in General Conference, etc.  Agitation is not the standard by which doctrine is changed, regardless of how you are trying to spin his statement.

Wow! What a classic instance of out-of-context quotation.

 

Thanks for providing the context for us.

[Tacenda]

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_12001.shtml

 

"Discipline for "Ordain Women" came from high level LDS leaders

(KUTV) 2News has learned from several sources in the Virginia area, that disciplinary action against Kate Kelly, founder of Ordain Women was not influenced by leaders in her former LDS congregation in that state, but rather church leaders in Salt Lake City.  

Sources say that on May 17 Elder M. Russell Ballard and Elder Whitney Clayton, were in the area for a training meeting. During that meeting, the local church leaders asked Elder Clayton what should be done about the Ordain Women group. 

Clayton reportedly said that public advocacy of ordination is an act of apostasy. When asked to confirm the events of that day, the LDS Church Public Affairs office released this statement from spokesperson Jessica Moody. 

"While senior leaders do provide training, these decisions are made by local leaders and are not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters."

By Cristina Flores

 

http://radiowest.kuer.org/programs/radiowest-podcasts

 

Latter-day Saints and Excommunication, Part II

 

"Tuesday, we're continuing our conversation on discipline and excommunication in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Doug's guest for the hour is Ally Isom, Senior Manager of Public Affairs with the LDS Church. Two high-profile, progressive Mormon activists have been called before their local leaders and are being threatened with excommunication. It's raised a lot of questions about what makes a faithful Mormon, the disciplinary process and what all this reveals about the modern LDS Church."

 

Facing Excommunication

 

"Last week, two prominent voices in the progressive Mormon community were notified they face possible excommunication from the LDS Church. John Dehlin is creator of a popular podcast discussing Mormon issues and an advocate for LGBT rights. Kate Kelly is founder of Ordain Women, the group seeking access to the all-male priesthood. Monday, Doug sits down with each to talk about what excommunication would mean to them personally and the reaction they've been getting from their communities.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Tacenda

[Analytics]

I don't think one can make that assumption.  

However, it is fair to say that choosing to fight the battle in the press, knowing the Church cannot respond in detail about her circumstances, means that a lot of negative conclusions can be legitimately drawn about her behavior.  One of the conculsions legitimately to be drawn is that she does not intend to comply with standard church procedure, that she intends to make a mockery of the proceedings and mock those Brethren participating in it as well as perhaps mischaracterizing what has occurred in the past between she and them.  That alone may be sufficient for discipline.  

 

The Church doesn't respond in detail because it chooses not to. Yes, the Church claims that this is a private matter between Ms. Kelly and her bishop, but there are hundreds of Latter-day Saints who disagree and feel that whether or not they have a place in their own church depends to a large extent upon whether Kelly is also welcome. 

 

The whole process leaves this particular outsider wondering if the Church’s policy of remaining silent is being used not to protect the privacy of the member it is disciplining, but rather to protect itself.

[JAHS]

 

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_12001.shtml

 

"Discipline for "Ordain Women" came from high level LDS leaders

(KUTV) 2News has learned from several sources in the Virginia area, that disciplinary action against Kate Kelly, founder of Ordain Women was not influenced by leaders in her former LDS congregation in that state, but rather church leaders in Salt Lake City.  

Sources say that on May 17 Elder M. Russell Ballard and Elder Whitney Clayton, were in the area for a training meeting. During that meeting, the local church leaders asked Elder Clayton what should be done about the Ordain Women group. 

Clayton reportedly said that public advocacy of ordination is an act of apostasy. When asked to confirm the events of that day, the LDS Church Public Affairs office released this statement from spokesperson Jessica Moody. 

"While senior leaders do provide training, these decisions are made by local leaders and are not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters."

By Cristina Flores

 

http://radiowest.kuer.org/programs/radiowest-podcasts

 

Latter-day Saints and Excommunication, Part II

 

"Tuesday, we're continuing our conversation on discipline and excommunication in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Doug's guest for the hour is Ally Isom, Senior Manager of Public Affairs with the LDS Church. Two high-profile, progressive Mormon activists have been called before their local leaders and are being threatened with excommunication. It's raised a lot of questions about what makes a faithful Mormon, the disciplinary process and what all this reveals about the modern LDS Church."

 

Facing Excommunication

 

"Last week, two prominent voices in the progressive Mormon community were notified they face possible excommunication from the LDS Church. John Dehlin is creator of a popular podcast discussing Mormon issues and an advocate for LGBT rights. Kate Kelly is founder of Ordain Women, the group seeking access to the all-male priesthood. Monday, Doug sits down with each to talk about what excommunication would mean to them personally and the reaction they've been getting from their communities.

 

 

"Discipline For "Ordain Women" Came From High Level LDS Leaders"

 

Wow, that is one of the most misleading news article headlines I have ever seen.

[Duncan]

 

http://www.kutv.com/news/top-stories/stories/vid_12001.shtml

 

"Discipline for "Ordain Women" came from high level LDS leaders

(KUTV) 2News has learned from several sources in the Virginia area, that disciplinary action against Kate Kelly, founder of Ordain Women was not influenced by leaders in her former LDS congregation in that state, but rather church leaders in Salt Lake City.  

Sources say that on May 17 Elder M. Russell Ballard and Elder Whitney Clayton, were in the area for a training meeting. During that meeting, the local church leaders asked Elder Clayton what should be done about the Ordain Women group. 

Clayton reportedly said that public advocacy of ordination is an act of apostasy. When asked to confirm the events of that day, the LDS Church Public Affairs office released this statement from spokesperson Jessica Moody. 

"While senior leaders do provide training, these decisions are made by local leaders and are not directed or coordinated by Church headquarters."

By Cristina Flores

 

http://radiowest.kuer.org/programs/radiowest-podcasts

 

Latter-day Saints and Excommunication, Part II

 

"Tuesday, we're continuing our conversation on discipline and excommunication in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Doug's guest for the hour is Ally Isom, Senior Manager of Public Affairs with the LDS Church. Two high-profile, progressive Mormon activists have been called before their local leaders and are being threatened with excommunication. It's raised a lot of questions about what makes a faithful Mormon, the disciplinary process and what all this reveals about the modern LDS Church."

 

Facing Excommunication

 

"Last week, two prominent voices in the progressive Mormon community were notified they face possible excommunication from the LDS Church. John Dehlin is creator of a popular podcast discussing Mormon issues and an advocate for LGBT rights. Kate Kelly is founder of Ordain Women, the group seeking access to the all-male priesthood. Monday, Doug sits down with each to talk about what excommunication would mean to them personally and the reaction they've been getting from their communities.

 

 

 

so if they hadn't have come then no one would have asked 

[Bob Crockett]

The Church doesn't respond in detail because it chooses not to. Yes, the Church claims that this is a private matter between Ms. Kelly and her bishop, but there are hundreds of Latter-day Saints who disagree and feel that whether or not they have a place in their own church depends to a large extent upon whether Kelly is also welcome. 

 

The whole process leaves this particular outsider wondering if the Church’s policy of remaining silent is being used not to protect the privacy of the member it is disciplining, but rather to protect itself.

The Church has been sued in the past for following its old practice of announcing the results of discipline in priesthood meeting.   Basic laws of privacy compel the Church to be silent for fear of litigation.  So, is there a choice or is the decision inborn? 

[David T]

John Dehlin has noted that he has had convincing communication and reasons from his SP that in his case, the action was very much locally initiated, and not part of any coordination.

 

The Kate Kelley issue seems to be what had been suggested in the past - that general (but knowing) instruction/training was given of what should  generally happen with such an action, with local leaders who had such members in their jurisdiction (understandably) viewing it as an order, and obediently acting on it. A la the suggestion at Times and Seasons with the post, "Will nobody rid me of this turbulent priest?"

Edited June 17, 2014 by David T

[David T]

BTW - from Dehlin, "Doug Fabrizio said on today's RadioWest that a representative from the LDS church will appear on his show tomorrow for the full hour to discuss the situation with me and Kate Kelly This seems very positive to me."

[Gray]

Really? So 80 year old men are at liberty to join the Army?

I agree that invidious age discrimination is wrong. But there are countless ways in which age discrimination is perfectly appropriate.

"Discrimination" is a loaded word. We are exceedingly sloppy in using it. We all acknowledge that there are countless ways in which we all discriminate, and do so both legally and morally and without feeling the least bit guilty about it. And then there are circumstances in which "discrimination" is illegal/immoral (Jim Crow Laws, for example).

So the question for the Saints is this: The Church "discriminates" based on things like gender and age. It previously discriminated based on race (the Priesthood Ban), but does not now. Is the Church's current practice of discriminating based on gender and age "invidious," or is it an acceptable form of discrimination like any of the myriad forms of discrimination we find unobjectionable?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

Like I said, there are certain stages in our development/aging that prevent us from doing certain things. Then again, age discrimination in the workplace is illegal and wrong. And there is nothing about women that makes them any less suitable for leadership roles than men. 

 

 

 

 

So the question for the Saints is this: The Church "discriminates" based on things like gender and age. It previously discriminated based on race (the Priesthood Ban), but does not now. Is the Church's current practice of discriminating based on gender and age "invidious," or is it an acceptable form of discrimination like any of the myriad forms of discrimination we find unobjectionable?

 

I would say current discrimination against women in the church is a misguided tradition and needs to change. 

[Gray]

Really? So 80 year old men are at liberty to join the Army?

I agree that invidious age discrimination is wrong. But there are countless ways in which age discrimination is perfectly appropriate.

"Discrimination" is a loaded word. We are exceedingly sloppy in using it. We all acknowledge that there are countless ways in which we all discriminate, and do so both legally and morally and without feeling the least bit guilty about it. And then there are circumstances in which "discrimination" is illegal/immoral (Jim Crow Laws, for example).

 

Like I said, there are certain stages in our development/aging that prevent us from doing certain things. Then again, age discrimination in the workplace is illegal and wrong. And there is nothing about women that makes them any less suitable for leadership roles than men. 

 

So the question for the Saints is this: The Church "discriminates" based on things like gender and age. It previously discriminated based on race (the Priesthood Ban), but does not now. Is the Church's current practice of discriminating based on gender and age "invidious," or is it an acceptable form of discrimination like any of the myriad forms of discrimination we find unobjectionable?

Thanks,

-Smac

 

I would say current discrimination against women in the church is a misguided tradition and needs to change. 

 

[Analytics]

The Church has been sued in the past for following its old practice of announcing the results of discipline in priesthood meeting.   Basic laws of privacy compel the Church to be silent for fear of litigation.  So, is there a choice or is the decision inborn? 

 

In general, I think the privacy policy is appropriate.  However, I would think the "defendant" has the right to waive his or her right to privacy, and that doing so makes sense in public cases such as this one.

[Gray]

Kate Kelly is entirely to blame for "this situation."  She is the one that has publicized it, not the Church.

 

Thanks,

 

-Smac

 

As I understand it her bishop said he would announce it if she didn't

[Gray]

 

Let’s start a crusade against releasing General Authorities on account of age.

 

 

I don't think I expressed opposition to retirement. But of course the top 15 do not retire. 

[Analytics]

John Dehlin has noted that he has had convincing communication and reasons from his SP that in his case, the action was very much locally initiated, and not part of any coordination.

 

The Kate Kelley issue seems to be what had been suggested in the past - that general (but knowing) instruction/training was given of what should  generally happen with such an action, with local leaders who had such members in their jurisdiction (understandably) viewing it as an order, and obediently acting on it. A la the suggestion at Times and Seasons with the post, "Will nobody rid me of this turbulent priest?"

 

I'm sure it was initiated locally, but I can't help but think that the SP wouldn't have initiated a high-profile excommunication without approval from SLC.  If that's the case, the real question regarding whether the two events were coordinated depends upon if the approval from SLC to move ahead was coordinated.

[Gray]

They have something like 300 followers and 3000 likes on Facebook in a church with 15,000,000 members. (Many are ex and non-LDS). Mormon women stand has about 10 times as many likes on Facebook just for reference.

She is simply seeking attention and seeking glory in this, nothing more.

 

I think OW's numbers are larger than they might seem. Many members don't want to be seen as rocking the boat (or endangering their membership), while privately supporting ordination of women. 

[Bob Crockett]

In general, I think the privacy policy is appropriate.  However, I would think the "defendant" has the right to waive his or her right to privacy, and that doing so makes sense in public cases such as this one.

Why would the Church ever expose itself to possible error by explaining itself?  Just more fodder for complaint and criticism.   

 

 

[Gray]

All that "yes" implies is that God could change it if He wanted to. It was not a suggestion that agitation would change the will of God or that God decided to rescind his counsel on not counseling your God.

 

Is anyone claiming that God has weighed in on the matter of women's ordination?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Is anyone claiming that God has weighed in on the matter of women's ordination?

The scriptures seem pretty clear to me. Why are they not clear for you?

[Analytics]

Why would the Church ever expose itself to possible error by explaining itself?  Just more fodder for complaint and criticism.   

 

 

 

According to my values, explaining yourself is the right thing to do, even if you turn out to be wrong, and even if it provides more fodder for criticism.  It gets back to the whole "stand for something" ethic.  Of course according to my values, the church has absolutely no reason to discipline Kelly in the first place. 

 

I remember seeing Joanna Brooks on The Daily Show several months ago.  I thought, "Gosh, she sure is a cool Mormon.  The church really seems to be growing up, having a big tent that includes people like her.  She sure makes the church look good."

 

The church's current course of action is alienating her and people like her, as seen in the letter she signed, "There is Room for All in the Church."

 

http://askmormongirl.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/room-for-all-in-this-church/

 

If you lined up all of the self-identifying Mormons on a spectrum that goes from Liahona on one end to Iron Rod on the other, it appears the Church is telling people on the far Liahona end that they either need to put their candles under a bushel or find a new spiritual home.  I find the whole thing sad.  The least the church could do is explain itself better.