Ny Times Article: Kate Kelly And John Dehlin Threatened With Excommunication

[Gray]

The scriptures seem pretty clear to me. Why are they not clear for you?

 

Probably because there is no passage in any scripture banning women from priesthood or priesthood office. Not to mention passages that put women in roles we currently identify as priesthood roles. 

Edited June 17, 2014 by Gray

[Zakuska]

Probably because there is no passage in any scripture banning women from priesthood or priesthood office. Not to mention passages that put women in roles we currently identify as priesthood roles. 

 

Can't very well execute a priesthood office without speaking now can they?

 

1 Cor 14

 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

And that's both New AND Old Testament. The church is on very solid doctrinal grounds according to the scriptures on this question.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/14.35?lang=eng#34

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[JLHPROF]

Probably because there is no passage in any scripture banning women from priesthood or priesthood office. Not to mention passages that put women in roles we currently identify as priesthood roles. 

 

There's no scripture banning goats and trees from priesthood office either.  We don't only act based on what God hasn't forbidden.  That's acting like the kid who says "well, you never said I couldn't have 5 bowls of ice cream for dinner".

 

We only give priesthood office (outside of temple/celestial environment) to men because that is all God has ever asked us to do or has ever been practiced since priesthood was recorded.  We can debate the gospel principles behind the restriction, but this is how God has always spoken - priesthood is for his Sons according to every scripture recording his word on the subject.

There are numerous revelations calling men to specific offices.  There is not a single recorded revelation calling a woman to a priesthood office (outside of Queen & Priestess).  But the temple teaches that there is a place for women in priesthood office, it's just not in administrating the earthly Church.

[Duncan]

As I understand it her bishop said he would announce it if she didn't

 

announce it to who? the media or just the congregation?

[Zakuska]

Lets see what happend when women tried to usurp priesthood authority in the time of Moses.

 

Numbers 12

 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

 2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

 3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

 4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

 5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

 6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

 9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

 10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

 11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.

 12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother’s womb.

 13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

 14 ¶And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.

 15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.

 16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Zakuska

[The Nehor]

Is anyone claiming that God has weighed in on the matter of women's ordination?

 

Yes, I am.

[Gray]

 

Can't very well execute a priesthood office without speaking now can they?

 

1 Cor 14

 34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

And that's both New AND Old Testament. The church is on very solid doctrinal grounds according to the scriptures on this question.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/14.35?lang=eng#34

 

 

I'm not sure of the relevance, given that women have always spoken in our church. But even so, Paul's injunction does not prevent women from carrying out priesthood roles, not all of which require public discourse in church.

[Gray]

There's no scripture banning goats and trees from priesthood office either.  We don't only act based on what God hasn't forbidden.  That's acting like the kid who says "well, you never said I couldn't have 5 bowls of ice cream for dinner".

 

We only give priesthood office (outside of temple/celestial environment) to men because that is all God has ever asked us to do or has ever been practiced since priesthood was recorded.  We can debate the gospel principles behind the restriction, but this is how God has always spoken - priesthood is for his Sons according to every scripture recording his word on the subject.

There are numerous revelations calling men to specific offices.  There is not a single recorded revelation calling a woman to a priesthood office (outside of Queen & Priestess).  But the temple teaches that there is a place for women in priesthood office, it's just not in administrating the earthly Church.

 

There is no passage banning left handed people from taking the sacrament. Should we wait for direct revelation on the matter before permitting it to occur?

 

 

 

We only give priesthood office (outside of temple/celestial environment) to men because that is all God has ever asked us to do or has ever been practiced since priesthood was recorded

 

Not according to the Bible.

[Gray]

announce it to who? the media or just the congregation?

 

I'm not sure. I believe his intent was to prevent her from continuing to be able to claim to be a member in good standing

[Gray]

 

Lets see what happend when women tried to usurp priesthood authority in the time of Moses.

 

Numbers 12

 1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

 2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

 3 (Now the man Moses was very meek, above all the men which were upon the face of the earth.)

 4 And the Lord spake suddenly unto Moses, and unto Aaron, and unto Miriam, Come out ye three unto the tabernacle of the congregation. And they three came out.

 5 And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam: and they both came forth.

 6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

 7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

 8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the Lord shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?

 9 And the anger of the Lord was kindled against them; and he departed.

 10 And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.

 11 And Aaron said unto Moses, Alas, my lord, I beseech thee, lay not the sin upon us, wherein we have done foolishly, and wherein we have sinned.

 12 Let her not be as one dead, of whom the flesh is half consumed when he cometh out of his mother’s womb.

 13 And Moses cried unto the Lord, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.

 14 ¶And the Lord said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.

 15 And Miriam was shut out from the camp seven days: and the people journeyed not till Miriam was brought in again.

 16 And afterward the people removed from Hazeroth, and pitched in the wilderness of Paran.

 

 

That's a woman, not "women"

 

The Bible mentions female judges and prophets and deacons

[Gray]

Yes, I am.

 

Given your status as God of the underworld, that's valid only as far as your jurisdiction goes 

 

(Hopefully this is humor you can appreciate, or at least tolerate, given your sense of humor)

[The Nehor]

Given your status as God of the underworld, that's valid only as far as your jurisdiction goes 

 

(Hopefully this is humor you can appreciate, or at least tolerate, given your sense of humor)

 

Nah, I gave up that title and am shooting for God of all Creation. Soon.....UNLIMITED POWER...MWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAh

 

[JLHPROF]

That's a woman, not "women"

 

The Bible mentions female judges and prophets and deacons

 

Judge is not a priesthood office.

Prophet is not a priesthood office.

It's debatable whether there was a female deacon (Pheobe) or a female apostle (Junia) in the Bible.

 

What we do know is that when God said "go out and ordain xyz" to the early apostles and to Joseph Smith he specifically named men.

[stemelbow]

Judge is not a priesthood office.

Prophet is not a priesthood office.

It's debatable whether there was a female deacon (Pheobe) or a female apostle (Junia) in the Bible.

 

What we do know is that when God said "go out and ordain xyz" to the early apostles and to Joseph Smith he specifically named men.

The Lord named them or He allowed Joseph to prayerfully select? In what way did those names come? Did He appear to Joseph and tell him the names?

[JLHPROF]

The Lord named them or He allowed Joseph to prayerfully select? In what way did those names come? Did He appear to Joseph and tell him the names?

 

Sometimes that happens, sometimes it is just by prayerful selection.  Twice Christ called 12 specific apostles in scripture and twice he only called men.  We have modern day revelations wherein God specifically called people by his voice to a priesthood office and we have record of it happening, but only ever to men.  See D&C 41:9, D&C 52:38, D&C 53:3, D&C 55:2, Wilf Woodruff 1882 Revelation calling GA's, and many more.

 

In all of these instances Christ or God speaking personally specifically called people by revelation to a specific priesthood office.  We don't have a single record of God ever calling a woman to a priesthood office.  Not one.  We have only 2 debatably translated references in scripture pairing a female name with a priesthood office.  I don't think we could reasonably believe that God would be so careless as to never tell a prophet to call a woman if it were acceptable that they be called.  Somewhere God would have said Joseph, ordain Sally as an elder, let Mary be called as Bishop, I name Jane to preside over this branch.  But never has God said anything even close.

 

I also doubt God would be so unintentionally restrictive in voice as in the following (and so many other verses) if it wasn't required.

 

D&C 20:60 Every elder, priest, teacher, or deacon is to be ordained according to the gifts and callings of God unto him; and he is to be ordained by the power of the Holy Ghost, which is in the one who ordains him.

or

D&C 68:16 And if they be literal descendants of Aaron they have a legal right to the bishopric, if they are the firstborn among the sons of Aaron;

or

D&C 68:21 But, by virtue of the decree concerning their right of the priesthood descending from father to son, they may claim their anointing if at any time they can prove their lineage, or do ascertain it by revelation from the Lord under the hands of the above named Presidency.

 

It is common sense that God would have specifed mankind, member, any, or some other term if it were open to more than men.  To claim "false tradition" is to ignore the example and precedent set by God  and Christ themselves, whether there is an established restriction or not.

[juliann]

This template on BCC is a real time saver!   http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/06/17/official-loving-the-body-of-christ-template-post/

 

I am a believing, faithful latter-day saint who takes seriously the teachings and doctrines of the church. When I first heard about OW, my initial reaction was one of [joy][disappointment]. I have been a member my entire life and have never thought women were treated as [equals][second-class citizens] within the church. There are [few][many] chances for women to act as leaders and provide meaningful input that is truly listened to. The recent addition of photographs of some of our female leaders in the conference center serves to underscore the [limited][important] leadership opportunities available to women in the church.

 

OW’s tactics have included drawing public attention to their cause. This is because OW [could not get a hearing through][chose to ignore] conventional channels. As a result OW’s Kate Kelly and her supporters have twice [gone to][marched on] Temple Square during General Conference and [sought][demanded] admission to the priesthood session. The church’s response to OW’s first [request][protest] was to [block them with a dumpster][politely turn them away]. The second time, the [sisters and brothers][activists] again waited in line [until they were turned away][became unruly]. . . .

 

 

[Zakuska]

That's a woman, not "women"

 

The Bible mentions female judges and prophets and deacons

 

A... This "woman" is called a prophetess and has a song she wrote canonized.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/15.20?lang=eng

 

Yet when she spoke i'll of the Lords anointed and tried to usurp authority over him and a following, was stuck down by the Lord .

[sethpayne]

This template on BCC is a real time saver!   http://bycommonconsent.com/2014/06/17/official-loving-the-body-of-christ-template-post/

 

 

That was hilarious.

[Gray]

Judge is not a priesthood office.

 

It's comparable to Bishops

 

Prophet is not a priesthood office.

 

Then we shouldn't have a problem with having a woman as president of the church

 

It's debatable whether there was a female deacon (Pheobe) or a female apostle (Junia) in the Bible.

 

It's not debatable. The Bible identifies a female deacon. In fact IIRC the only Deacon identified by name in scripture is Phoebe.

 

What we do know is that when God said "go out and ordain xyz" to the early apostles and to Joseph Smith he specifically named men.

 

Not surprising given the culture. 

[Gray]

A... This "woman" is called a prophetess and has a song she wrote canonized.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/15.20?lang=eng

 

Yet when she spoke i'll of the Lords anointed and tried to usurp authority over him and a following, was stuck down by the Lord .

 

Has nothing to do with her gender

[juliann]

A... This "woman" is called a prophetess and has a song she wrote canonized.

 

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/ex/15.20?lang=eng

 

Yet when she spoke i'll of the Lords anointed and tried to usurp authority over him and a following, was stuck down by the Lord .

But you leave out the solution, why is that?

 

¹³ So Moses cried out to the Lord, “Please, God, heal her!”

¹⁴ The Lord replied to Moses, “If her father had spit in her face, would she not have been in disgrace for seven days? Confine her outside the camp for seven days; after that she can be brought back.” ¹⁵ So Miriam was confined outside the camp for seven days, and the people did not move on till she was brought back.

[Zakuska]

Has nothing to do with her gender

But it has everything to do with Authority.

 

Miriam and Aaron were Moses' Siblings. They had just as much claim to Aaronic Priesthood by Blood mind you as Moses. But what does the story say?

 

That Miriam and Aaron said hey, "We have propehsied in the name of the Lord just as Moses has." 

 

2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

 

Why cant we lead the People as well?

 

What was Gods reply?

 

That they hadn't been called to do such.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

 

 

Not surprising given the culture. 

So it is your opinion that all through out history it is mere "culture" and nothing more. Yet you have 0 and I mean 0 scriptural president for women to be ordained. You should leave your progressivism at the door. It is coloring your interpretation just a bit.

Edited June 17, 2014 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Gray]

But it has everything to do with Authority.

 

Miriam and Aaron were Moses' Siblings. They had just as much claim to Aaronic Priesthood by Blood mind you as Moses. But what does the story say?

 

That Miriam and Aaron said hey, "We have propehsied in the name of the Lord just as Moses has." 

 

2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

 

Why cant we lead the People as well?

 

What was Gods reply?

 

That they hadn't been called to do such.

 

I don't see the relevance to women's ordination. 

[Gray]

So it is your opinion that all through out history it is mere "culture" and nothing more. Yet you have 0 and I mean 0 scriptural president for women to be ordained. You should leave your progressivism at the door. It is coloring your bias just a bit.

 

All human history is colored by human culture, including religious history. If you think prophets are immune to cultural assumptions, I think you're claiming something far beyond what they themselves would claim. Culture, after all, is what lead to assumptions about blacks and priesthood.

 

 

 

 

Yet you have 0 and I mean 0 scriptural president for women to be ordained

 

Only if you discount those scriptures that do mention women in priesthood roles. Not to mention, the substance of Nephi's teachings on equality and Peter's remarks about a "royal priesthood", addressed to a mixed gender audience