Bug Spray

[LDSGuy]

Do we to often strain at a gnat, but swallow the camel? Do to many people get hung up on the controversial topics of the church instead of enjoying the overall good?

[Tacenda]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

[Glenn101]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

 

 

It depends on where one goes to get their truth.

 

Glenn

[Buzzard]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

An apology for the harm done? Name one individual or group who was harmed by following the gospel. To paraphrase Peter. where else can we turn? The church has the keys of eternal life. People have made mistakes, but following the gospel has brought blessings into their life and the lives of those they have touched. 

Maybe the critics of the church owe us an apology for all the harm they have done. 

[Palerider]

"An apology for the harm done"......?

 

Don't hold your breath on this one. There first has to be an acknowledgment that there was any harm done (blame the victim) and as you can see by Buzzard's statement, there is only quick defense and self-justification at any cost.

 

Sorry, the church does not hold the keys of eternal life.........Christ has that particular privilege.......nor does any other man-made organization existing on earth today.

[Opinion Slayer]

Do we to often strain at a gnat, but swallow the camel? Do to many people get hung up on the controversial topics of the church instead of enjoying the overall good?

Of course they do. The truth of the matter is that like the parable of the ten virgins so is the case with the saints of the latter days. The reality is that half will fall because they have one foot in and one foot out. Things like intellectualism is hitting this church like a plague and only those who will show fierce loyalty to the prophet and the Lord will make it in the end! The gospel is beautiful and pure and when you live it you get it!

At the end there is Zion and there's Babylon and you can either be like Lot or his wife!

Edited June 6, 2014 by Opinion Slayer

[jkwilliams]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

 

The church took what it took from my life, and I won't get it back, but I don't expect or ask for any apology or redress or anything like that. I am trying to look forward, not back.

 

I should say that I don't view the church as an entirely negative influence in my life. It is what it is, and I realize that the good and the bad contributed to who I am. And I am fine with who I am.

Edited June 6, 2014 by jkwilliams

[bluebell]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

 

The LDS church teaches that faith must be in Jesus Christ, and that a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel which the Church teaches must come from the Holy Ghost.  

 

If any member has based their faith on other things, then I don't see how we can blame that on the church.

 

As to the OP-i think the gospel is a lot like life in general.  It's way easier to get excited and completely focused on the drama and intrigue that one might be able to find than it is to just live your life doing the best you can trying to follow the Savior day by day by day.   Heroic moments of life and death (whether literal or figurative) are difficult for sure but there is a part of humanity that craves, and actually functions better under, such circumstances.  We are typically a 'failure is NOT an option' kind of people when faced with extreme situations.  It's when life get's too 'normal' and boring and repetitive that we often seem to struggle the most with making good choices consistently.

 

So, for a lot of people, spending hours trying to figure out whether or not JS had sexual relations with Eliza, and then blogging/arguing with those who are also spending hours trying to solve that 'mystery', is way more fun and fulfilling than spending a few days a month doing their visiting or home teaching, or preparing a weekly lesson for Sunday school (and i'm not saying one can't do both, only that for a lot of people it's way easier to do the first than the second).  

 

The second options probably produce more positive results, but the first is way more exciting.

Edited June 6, 2014 by bluebell

[Sleeper Cell]

"An apology for the harm done"......?

 

Don't hold your breath on this one. There first has to be an acknowledgment that there was any harm done (blame the victim) and as you can see by Buzzard's statement, there is only quick defense and self-justification at any cost.

 

Sorry, the church does not hold the keys of eternal life.........Christ has that particular privilege.......nor does any other man-made organization existing on earth today.

 

And there you have it.  Nothing short of the LDS Church renouncing its truth claims and proclaiming that it is merely a man made organization will do. 

 

And, by the way, sorry about the First Vision, the Book of Mormon, the Word of Wisdom, our temples, our missionaries, and [shudder] having the temerity to disagree when we feel our church is being unfairly criticized.  

[thesometimesaint]

Tacenda:

 

It is not the Gospel that is the problem. It is innumerable ways in which it has been wrongly applied that is.

[ERayR]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

 

It wouldn't have to be that way if you made different choices.  One chooses to believe the interpretation of the data that they want.

[Tacenda]

Tacenda:

 

It is not the Gospel that is the problem. It is innumerable ways in which it has been wrongly applied that is.

This rings true.  I can't believe my post comes out as I'm a victim again, I keep playing that card.  I wonder how many people get that the Gospel means the good news?  I'm ashamed that I just took it that the Gospel was the church and it's version of the Gift of Salvation.  But it's more than that.

 

  I guess there isn't going to be an official apology, but what Pres. Uchtdorf attempted to do went a long way with the disaffected.  I guess several are one foot in and one foot out until a clear picture of the church's history is told, they've come a long way, and it is a rich history with amazing people, but when people join without knowledge of say, polygamy still happening in the temple etc.  They are sideswiped, I've read/heard stories.  It begins with the missionaries laying out a variety of things before the new members are baptized.  Some training in this would help do wonders. 

 

I agree with the OP that we shouldn't let the gnats get in the way of a beautiful thing though, as long as it's what it's meant to be.  Just a helpmeet to the true meaning of the Gospel.     

[Palerider]

"And there you have it............."

 

Yes, yes you do.......... and I greatly admire the Community of Christ for doing so. I'd much rather associate with a small organization with integrity, than a large franchise that specializes in tap dancing...........

[jkwilliams]

This rings true.  I can't believe my post comes out as I'm a victim again, I keep playing that card.  I wonder how many people get that the Gospel means the good news?  I'm ashamed that I just took it that the Gospel was the church and it's version of the Gift of Salvation.  But it's more than that.

 

  I guess there isn't going to be an official apology, but what Pres. Uchtdorf attempted to do went a long way with the disaffected.  I guess several are one foot in and one foot out until a clear picture of the church's history is told, they've come a long way, and it is a rich history with amazing people, but when people join without knowledge of say, polygamy still happening in the temple etc.  They are sideswiped, I've read/heard stories.  It begins with the missionaries laying out a variety of things before the new members are baptized.  Some training in this would help do wonders. 

 

I agree with the OP that we shouldn't let the gnats get in the way of a beautiful thing though, as long as it's what it's meant to be.  Just a helpmeet to the true meaning of the Gospel.     

 

FWIW, I don't think you sounded like a victim at all. I can't imagine anyone would disagree that the correlation version of church history and so on that we were taught left out a lot of stuff that, as you say, can leave people sideswiped. I'm hopeful that the recent essays and some changes to the church's curriculum means less of that will happen in the future.

[Tacenda]

The LDS church teaches that faith must be in Jesus Christ, and that a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel which the Church teaches must come from the Holy Ghost.  

 

If any member has based their faith on other things, then I don't see how we can blame that on the church.

 

As to the OP-i think the gospel is a lot like life in general.  It's way easier to get excited and completely focused on the drama and intrigue that one might be able to find than it is to just live your life doing the best you can trying to follow the Savior day by day by day.   Heroic moments of life and death (whether literal or figurative) are difficult for sure but there is a part of humanity that craves, and actually functions better under, such circumstances.  We are typically a 'failure is NOT an option' kind of people when faced with extreme situations.  It's when life get's too 'normal' and boring and repetitive that we often seem to struggle the most with making good choices consistently.

 

So, for a lot of people, spending hours trying to figure out whether or not JS had sexual relations with Eliza, and then blogging/arguing with those who are also spending hours trying to solve that 'mystery', is way more fun and fulfilling than spending a few days a month doing their visiting or home teaching, or preparing a weekly lesson for Sunday school (and i'm not saying one can't do both, only that for a lot of people it's way easier to do the first than the second).  

 

The second options probably produce more positive results, but the first is way more exciting.

Bluebell, I bolded because I love visiting teaching...well most of the time.  I still do this, and want to do more in the church if they'd let me.  We have so many people moving in and young families, they get the callings and put people like me out to pasture.  But you have a point, I'm obsessed with JS but still want to do other things to balance out my sickness. 

[rockpond]

The LDS church teaches that faith must be in Jesus Christ, and that a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel which the Church teaches must come from the Holy Ghost.  

 

If any member has based their faith on other things, then I don't see how we can blame that on the church.

 

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don't go astray.

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; HE knows the way.

 

So, for a lot of people, spending hours trying to figure out whether or not JS had sexual relations with Eliza, and then blogging/arguing with those who are also spending hours trying to solve that 'mystery', is way more fun and fulfilling than spending a few days a month doing their visiting or home teaching, or preparing a weekly lesson for Sunday school (and i'm not saying one can't do both, only that for a lot of people it's way easier to do the first than the second).  

 

Trivializing faith crises and denigrating those who struggle isn't helpful to the overall strength of the church or hastening the work.

[CV75]

Do we to often strain at a gnat, but swallow the camel? Do to many people get hung up on the controversial topics of the church instead of enjoying the overall good?

I see two things in your observation:

 

1. Straining at a gnat and swallowing a camel is another way of describing a hypocrite. I think people who are not necessarily hypocrites also leave the weightier matters of the law of the Gospel, but do so because of having priorities out of order due to ignorance, the spirit of contention or rebellion, kicking against the pricks, or a Gospel hobby.

 

2. Controversy (“disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated”--Google) with the Church is one-sidedly contentious. This is because the Church is calm and confident, having the same attitude as Paul and Joseph Smith with regards to the weightier matters: “I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it…”

 

The Church also has this backing: “…confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as ye are faithful their shame shall be made manifest. …Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you—there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; And if any man lift his voice against you he shall be confounded in mine own due time. Wherefore, keep my commandments; they are true and faithful. Even so. Amen.” (D&C 71:7-11)

 

It is often said that fear (the opposite of faith and love) is the root of anger and contention. In a prolonged situation, I think substituting the spirit of contention with the spirit of faith and knowledge gives a person a degree of spiritual confidence that will help him replace controversy with the weightier matters of the law (of the Gospel), judgment, mercy, and faith.

[Storm Rider]

For me I find weight to the position of those that feel betrayed or hurt that their perceptions of church leaders, the standard to which they were held by the fact of their calling as prophets, seers, and revelators, was not what they thought it was nor was it what they were taught by those same individuals.  I can empathize with their position because it is real for those that feel that pain.  We were simply never taught the difference between a church policy and revelation and/or guiding the church by revelation. 

 

We as a church cannot have it both ways and we have yet to explain effectively why we observe policy or why policies, any policy, is allowed to exist that affects the salvation of souls.  I can understand a policy that says all lesson books will be uniform worldwide; that policy does not have a direct impact on the soul of a single individual.  However, the Church has had policies that directly impacted the salvation of souls in this life.  No one should claim prophethood and then act as a man UNLESS he is capable of clarifying when he is acting as a man - and have the good sense to know his limitations - and when he is acting as a prophet and can end with "thus saith the Lord".  

 

I personally find this topic uncomfortable to talk about on a public forum without any control over who reads it.  I am concerned about the limitations with this medium.  Will they understand the context from which I speak?  My intent is to reach out a hand of fellowship to those who doubt or who have felt that keen, searing pain that results from the clash of reality with the what we believed and what we were taught.  

 

I don't have an answer for this problem.  It has certainly caused me to be very cautious when listening to leaders.  I find I am much more independent in my thinking and I rely more heavily on my own relationship with our Father in Heaven rather than what a priesthood leader says or thinks.  This creates a distance between me and the Church/leaders that still pains me.  I miss the innocence of simple belief.  

 

Having studied religion all my life I know that I could never be a full member of another church or religion.  I deeply admire the reverence I find within Islam, but I could never forfeit my knowledge and understanding of the Messiah and the knowledge that he is my Master.  I love and enjoy the wealth of history and wisdom found within Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but I personally don't enjoy High Church liturgy.  Marian adoration is also another stumbling block for me because I think a direct, personal relationship with our Savior is better.  Protestantism is heart warming and gentle, but it is void of meat and I would chaff far too quickly at being spoon fed for me to ever be satisfied.  I can address the vast majority of world religions and Christian churches, but my home is The Church of Jesus Christ and I cannot deny it.  

 

We need to be compassionate to all our brothers and sisters, both those in the Church and those outside of the Church, regardless of where they are in their relationship with God.  Our position needs to be to accept them where they are. If they are seeking we can provide some answers.  If they find value in what we say that is great, but if not that is great also.  Each of us is in the hand of our Father and it is his job, not ours, to convert the soul of each of us.  

 

As far as the leaders go I don't think it is my place to demand an apology or "the" truth whatever that is.  My place is to listen and hear and pray and to serve our God as best I can and recognize my own failings and shortcomings rather than seek to find them in others. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Storm Rider

[bluebell]

 

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don't go astray.

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; HE knows the way.

 

 

Trivializing faith crises and denigrating those who struggle isn't helpful to the overall strength of the church or hastening the work.

 

 

If anyone believes that that children's song means that the church teaches that faith in the prophet is the most important thing, then they either have comprehension issues, or they are being purposefully obtuse.

 

The prophet does know the way, just like parents, and teachers, and the scriptures, etc. etc. (and-gasp-there are primary songs about following all of those things!).  

 

Obviously teaching children that there are people they need to look to and follow as they try to follow their Heavenly Father and Jesus is hugely different than if the church were teaching that the prophet was the way for example, which of course, they aren't.  

 

I wasn't trivializing faith crises-i was explaining why gospel hobbies can so easily take over a person's life while doing the simply stuff like reading scriptures every day or saying meaningful personal prayers can be a lot more difficult.  

 

And I wasn't speaking only about those who struggle.  I'm not sure why you automatically made that assumption.

Edited June 6, 2014 by bluebell

[bluebell]

Bluebell, I bolded because I love visiting teaching...well most of the time.  I still do this, and want to do more in the church if they'd let me.  We have so many people moving in and young families, they get the callings and put people like me out to pasture.  But you have a point, I'm obsessed with JS but still want to do other things to balance out my sickness. 

 

I think it's really sad when wards do that.  When i was serving as YW's president we specifically chose most of our advisors because they were in their 60s and 70s and we knew the girls would benefit greatly from their perspective.  And some of the best primary teachers i've ever known were women in their 70s and 80s (not that you are in that age group-just speaking about older members in general!).

 

Unfortunately, i have also been in wards where women over the age of 60 refuse to do callings like primary or young womens (or practically anything besides the library) because they feel like they've done their time and they don't need to have time consuming callings or difficult callings anymore.  

 

It's a shame on wards who won't utilize older members, and it's a shame on older members when they refuse to serve outside of their comfort zone.

[Ahab]

"An apology for the harm done"......?

Don't hold your breath on this one. There first has to be an acknowledgment that there was any harm done (blame the victim) and as you can see by Buzzard's statement, there is only quick defense and self-justification at any cost.

Sorry, the church does not hold the keys of eternal life.........Christ has that particular privilege.......nor does any other man-made organization existing on earth today.

If you go to the priesthood session of your ward meetings this coming Sunday you'll have an opportunity to hear a lesson about the keys of the priesthood and why it's important to have men who have them and use them.

It would be good for you to understand that.

[jkwilliams]

For me I find weight to the position of those that feel betrayed or hurt that their perceptions of church leaders, the standard to which they were held by the fact of their calling to be prophets, seers, and revelators, was not what they thought it was nor was it what they were taught by those same individuals.  I can empathize with their position because it is real for those that feel that pain.  We were simply never taught about the difference between a church policy and revelation or guiding the church by revelation. 

 

We as a church cannot have it both ways and we have yet to explain effectively why we observe policy or why policies, any policy, is allowed to exist that affects the salvation of souls.  I can understand a policy that says all lesson books will be uniform worldwide; that policy does not have a direct impact on the soul of a single individual.  However, the Church has had policies that directly impacted the salvation of souls in this life.  No one should claim prophethood and then act as a man UNLESS you are capable of clarifying when you are acting as a man - and have the good sense to know your limitations - and when you act as a prophet and can end with "thus saith the Lord".  

 

I personally find this topic uncomfortable to talk about on a public forum without any control over who reads it.  I am concerned about the limitations with this medium.  Will they understand the context from which I speak?  My intent is to reach out a hand of fellowship to those who doubt or who have felt that keen, searing pain that results from the clash of reality with the what we thought and what we were taught.  

 

I don't have an answer for this.  It has certainly caused me to be very cautious when listening to leaders speak.  I find I am much more independent in my thinking and I rely more heavily on my own relationship with our Father in Heaven rather than what a priesthood leader says or thinks.  This creates a distance between me and the Church/leaders that still pains me.  I miss the innocence of simple belief.  

 

Having studied religion all my life I know that I could never be a full member of another church or religion.  I deeply admire the reverence I find within Islam, but I could never forfeit my knowledge and understanding of the Messiah and the knowledge that he is my Master.  I love and enjoy the wealth of history and wisdom found within Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but I don't enjoy High Church liturgy, and Marian adoration are stumbling blocks to direct, personal relationships with our Savior.  Protestantism is heart warming and gentle, but it is void of any meat and a chaff far too quickly at being spoon fed to ever be satisfied.  I can address the vast majority of world religions and Christian churches, but my home is The Church of Jesus Christ and I cannot deny it.  

 

We need to be compassionate to all our brothers and sisters, both those in the Church regardless of where they are in their relationship with God.  Our position needs to be to accept them where they are. If they seek we can provide some answers.  If they find value in what we say that is great, but if not, that is great also.  Each of us is in the hand of our Father and it is his job, not ours, to convert the soul of each of us.  

 

As far as the leaders go I don't think it is my place to demand an apology or "the" truth whatever that is.  My place is to listen and hear and pray and to serve our God as best I can and recognize my own failings and shortcomings rather than seek to find them in others. 

 

Thank you for this. Some of the posts in this thread I find very hurtful and dismissive, and I struggled to come up with a polite response. While I would hope you would be more careful in describing other faith traditions, I think I understand where you're coming from. The church is your spiritual home. IMO, that means it's where you should be. But, as you say, it may not be so for others, like me.

[rockpond]

If anyone believes that that children's song means that the church teaches that faith in the prophet is the most important thing, then they either have comprehension issues, or they are being purposefully obtuse.

 

The prophet does know the way, just like parents, and teachers, and the scriptures, etc. etc. (and-gasp-there are primary songs about following all of those things!).  

 

Obviously teaching children that there are people they need to look to and follow as they try to follow their Heavenly Father and Jesus is hugely different than if the church were teaching that the prophet was the way for example, which of course, they aren't.  

 

I wasn't trivializing faith crises-i was explaining why gospel hobbies can so easily take over a person's life while doing the simply stuff like reading scriptures every day or saying meaningful personal prayers can be a lot more difficult.  

 

And I wasn't speaking only about those who struggle.  I'm not sure why you automatically made that assumption.

 

I quoted the lyrics of that popular primary song as a means of highlighting a cultural issue we have in the church.  Think:  14 Fundamentals.

 

And I agree that personal scripture study and prayer are critical but they become difficult when a faith crisis has caused one to question God and the authenticity of scripture.

[rockpond]

For me I find weight to the position of those that feel betrayed or hurt that their perceptions of church leaders, the standard to which they were held by the fact of their calling to be prophets, seers, and revelators, was not what they thought it was nor was it what they were taught by those same individuals.  I can empathize with their position because it is real for those that feel that pain.  We were simply never taught about the difference between a church policy and revelation or guiding the church by revelation. 

 

We as a church cannot have it both ways and we have yet to explain effectively why we observe policy or why policies, any policy, is allowed to exist that affects the salvation of souls.  I can understand a policy that says all lesson books will be uniform worldwide; that policy does not have a direct impact on the soul of a single individual.  However, the Church has had policies that directly impacted the salvation of souls in this life.  No one should claim prophethood and then act as a man UNLESS you are capable of clarifying when you are acting as a man - and have the good sense to know your limitations - and when you act as a prophet and can end with "thus saith the Lord".  

 

I personally find this topic uncomfortable to talk about on a public forum without any control over who reads it.  I am concerned about the limitations with this medium.  Will they understand the context from which I speak?  My intent is to reach out a hand of fellowship to those who doubt or who have felt that keen, searing pain that results from the clash of reality with the what we thought and what we were taught.  

 

I don't have an answer for this.  It has certainly caused me to be very cautious when listening to leaders speak.  I find I am much more independent in my thinking and I rely more heavily on my own relationship with our Father in Heaven rather than what a priesthood leader says or thinks.  This creates a distance between me and the Church/leaders that still pains me.  I miss the innocence of simple belief.  

 

Having studied religion all my life I know that I could never be a full member of another church or religion.  I deeply admire the reverence I find within Islam, but I could never forfeit my knowledge and understanding of the Messiah and the knowledge that he is my Master.  I love and enjoy the wealth of history and wisdom found within Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy, but I don't enjoy High Church liturgy, and Marian adoration are stumbling blocks to direct, personal relationships with our Savior.  Protestantism is heart warming and gentle, but it is void of any meat and a chaff far too quickly at being spoon fed to ever be satisfied.  I can address the vast majority of world religions and Christian churches, but my home is The Church of Jesus Christ and I cannot deny it.  

 

We need to be compassionate to all our brothers and sisters, both those in the Church regardless of where they are in their relationship with God.  Our position needs to be to accept them where they are. If they seek we can provide some answers.  If they find value in what we say that is great, but if not, that is great also.  Each of us is in the hand of our Father and it is his job, not ours, to convert the soul of each of us.  

 

As far as the leaders go I don't think it is my place to demand an apology or "the" truth whatever that is.  My place is to listen and hear and pray and to serve our God as best I can and recognize my own failings and shortcomings rather than seek to find them in others. 

 

Very, VERY well put.  Thank you.

[Tacenda]

Very, VERY well put. Thank you.

ditto