ERayR Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Can blame be shared? You can surely try. I am not sure that "it shocked me into inactivity" will play well at the judgement bar. The response might well be you were easily shocked and did nothing to remedy it.
ERayR Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 The church is continually developing curriculum for us to teach and study. General conferences provide 20 hours of instruction per year. Stake conference broadcasts add to that. Ward conferences get to a local level. Sacrament meetings are planned on a weekly basis. I'm not suggesting decades of debate - the system is in place and we are guided by men and women seeking the salvation of every last one of us. The helps are really nice but when it is all over it will be our own choices that are weighed in the balance. In fact the helps may in fact condemn us if we reject them. "Follow the Prophet" you know.
rockpond Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 You can surely try. I am not sure that "it shocked me into inactivity" will play well at the judgement bar. The response might well be you were easily shocked and did nothing to remedy it. I wasn't asking if I could try to share blame. And I was never shocked into inactivity. The question was: Can the blame for these faith crises be shared between the individuals and the church? Does the church carry any blame? If you see the church as an innocent bystander then you and I are simply not on the same page.
CV75 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I’m trying to figure out the link between someone attending to the “weightier matters” and having a faith crisis. The principles of spiritual preparedness are freely taught in all venues of the Church, and personal, family and Church resources can be relied upon to see us through in times of crisis. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/04/adversityhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/spiritual-preparedness-start-early-and-be-steady?lang=enghttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-race-of-life?lang=enghttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/in-the-strength-of-the-lord?lang=eng I think one thing the Church is doing to prevent faith crises is “hastening the work.” Also, each member has the Gift of the Holy Ghost and can minister and be ministered to. I think “blame” (real or perceived) is the gnat and “forgiveness” (true praise of God) is the weightier matter. 3
ERayR Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I wasn't asking if I could try to share blame. And I was never shocked into inactivity. The question was: Can the blame for these faith crises be shared between the individuals and the church? Does the church carry any blame? If you see the church as an innocent bystander then you and I are simply not on the same page. I am not saying that church leaders have not erred. I simply don't believe in infallibility. On the other hand each individual is totally responsible for how they let these things affect them. Old adage: Only a fool takes offense when none is intended but only a bigger fool takes offense when it is intended. The point being we choose how to react to the stimuli and data that comes our way. Shucks in 70+ years if I had chosen to let offenses and misunderstanding of church information and leaders affect me I would have been well on my way to being an atheist by now. 1
CV75 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I wasn't asking if I could try to share blame. And I was never shocked into inactivity. The question was: Can the blame for these faith crises be shared between the individuals and the church? Does the church carry any blame? If you see the church as an innocent bystander then you and I are simply not on the same page."It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng I believe "the eternal truth" is given to each person directly from God through the Holy Ghost, and that no crisis need keep a person from it. We are taught to be perfect, even though we are imperfect. There is another thread about "perfectionism" which can be self-imposed or imposed on others, and this is not the same thing as Jesus' command. 2
rockpond Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I’m trying to figure out the link between someone attending to the “weightier matters” and having a faith crisis. The principles of spiritual preparedness are freely taught in all venues of the Church, and personal, family and Church resources can be relied upon to see us through in times of crisis. https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/04/adversityhttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/2005/10/spiritual-preparedness-start-early-and-be-steady?lang=enghttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/2012/04/the-race-of-life?lang=enghttps://www.lds.org/general-conference/2004/04/in-the-strength-of-the-lord?lang=eng I think one thing the Church is doing to prevent faith crises is “hastening the work.” Also, each member has the Gift of the Holy Ghost and can minister and be ministered to. I think “blame” (real or perceived) is the gnat and “forgiveness” (true praise of God) is the weightier matter. I am not saying that church leaders have not erred. I simply don't believe in infallibility. On the other hand each individual is totally responsible for how they let these things affect them. Old adage: Only a fool takes offense when none is intended but only a bigger fool takes offense when it is intended. The point being we choose how to react to the stimuli and data that comes our way. Shucks in 70+ years if I had chosen to let offenses and misunderstanding of church information and leaders affect me I would have been well on my way to being an atheist by now. "It is unfortunate that some have stumbled because of mistakes made by men. But in spite of this, the eternal truth of the restored gospel found in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not tarnished, diminished, or destroyed." https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/come-join-with-us?lang=eng I believe "the eternal truth" is given to each person directly from God through the Holy Ghost, and that no crisis need keep a person from it. We are taught to be perfect, even though we are imperfect. There is another thread about "perfectionism" which can be self-imposed or imposed on others, and this is not the same thing as Jesus' command. I don't disagree with these statements. And if you feel that this attitude is serving the church well, then continue. But for me, the additional "weightier" matters are the souls for which I have stewardship, I'll continue to do what I can to help them before, through, and after crises of faith.
Walden Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I wasn't asking if I could try to share blame. And I was never shocked into inactivity. The question was: Can the blame for these faith crises be shared between the individuals and the church? Does the church carry any blame? If you see the church as an innocent bystander then you and I are simply not on the same page. rockpond, Eray and others know exactly what it is that you are asking, they just seem to refuse to answer, or twist the question around, in their effort to defend the church at any cost, even when the church is wrong; instead, they try to label all who take issue with the church's tactics as having some type of "victim" mentality (which I find comically ironic considering the long history of "persecution complex" within the church). Why is it so hard for some members to admit that the church might benefit from altering some of it's teaching tactics? Of course, the church doesn't have to do anything, particularly at the request of us "apostates," but they then should not be surprised that people are still arriving at some type of faith crisis when they uncover unknown and sometimes troubling aspects of church history. Just keep doing what you are doing LDS church, but don't then wonder why there continues to be this ongoing theme of faith crisis' within the church as a result of murky history or half-told historical truths. One or two or a few dozen people losing their faith over church history might point to individual flaws in faith; a large contingency of people leaving the faith over historical issues, or a continued mantra of church history deceit by disaffected members, might point more to an institutional flaw, IMO. 1
rockpond Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 rockpond, Eray and others know exactly what it is that you are asking, they just seem to refuse to answer, or twist the question around, in their effort to defend the church at any cost, even when the church is wrong; instead, they try to label all who take issue with the church's tactics as having some type of "victim" mentality (which I find comically ironic considering the long history of "persecution complex" within the church). Why is it so hard for some members to admit that the church might benefit from altering some of it's teaching tactics? Of course, the church doesn't have to do anything, particularly at the request of us "apostates," but they then should not be surprised that people are still arriving at some type of faith crisis when they uncover unknown and sometimes troubling aspects of church history. Just keep doing what you are doing LDS church, but don't then wonder why there continues to be this ongoing theme of faith crisis' within the church as a result of murky history or half-told historical truths. One or two or a few dozen people losing their faith over church history might point to individual flaws in faith; a large contingency of people leaving the faith over historical issues, or a continued mantra of church history deceit by disaffected members, might point more to an institutional flaw, IMO. Thanks for understanding.
CV75 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 I don't disagree with these statements. And if you feel that this attitude is serving the church well, then continue. But for me, the additional "weightier" matters are the souls for which I have stewardship, I'll continue to do what I can to help them before, through, and after crises of faith.Are you saying that the “true praise of God” is at variance with “the souls for which I have stewardship?”
CV75 Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 rockpond, Eray and others know exactly what it is that you are asking... Why is it so hard for some members to admit that the church might benefit from altering some of it's teaching tactics?I think Elder Uchtdorf, for example, acknowledged these concerns in the link above. And I also think tactics, imperfectly executed, are "gnats" relative to the inspired strategy, mission, vision, commandments and covenants, etc. which are perfectly realized only through grace upon each individual, the weightiest of all these weightier matters.
rockpond Posted June 6, 2014 Posted June 6, 2014 Are you saying that the “true praise of God” is at variance with “the souls for which I have stewardship?” Not at all.
jkwilliams Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 It certainly was not a matter of choice for me. And I know others who feel the same. So I reject your conclusion that it is a choice. It was a choice for me, but not a poor one. It was the right choice and the only choice for me.
jkwilliams Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 John, you simply don't understand how truly, horribly victimized you were, and as a Victim , you were and are simply at the mercy of The Evil Empire . You must crusade! Everyone must come to understand that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, at its core, a truly evil, soul-destroying cult! And, as a Victim , you completely lack the ability to say "That was then, this is now," to let bygones be bygones, to refuse to be held hostage by any untoward events in your past in which the church may have played a role, and to chart your own course henceforth. Don't you care about humanity? Don't you care about the souls, many of whom are yet to be born, of those who run the very real risk of being caught in this organization's life-sapping tentacles? Because of your inexplicable, inexcusable apathy, I must say, you are a truly despicable human being! P.S.: And for those of you who didn't get it and are, incensed and bursting with umbrage, preparing to leap to John's defense ... Beep-beep-beep! Irony Alert! Irony Alert! Beep-beep-beep! I'm more of a stealth crusader. I just pretend to be sincere while working to undermine the church one testimony at a time.
williamsmith Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help. Your "faith" isn't based on whatever anti-mormons say happened in the past which near all LDS scholars have debunked, nor whatever human weaknesses that may have occured or anti-mormons THINK actually occured.If your faith is based on men be it anti-mormon judgments or the judgements and mistakes of men in the church, then you lose.If your faith is based on the over-all good, right and truth, then you win. Also, please tell me how anti-mormon claims are related to "Faith"....?You think the Church should teach anti-mormon history and every little wart or possible wart, instead of teaching the Saving and Exalting Gospel of Jesus Christ, something they hardly even have enough TIME to do itself?And since when have you "not" been told the truth upfront?Go to any LDS Bookstore, Library, Church Library, and you can find near all the "truth" you want.Since when did God say man was to be "forcefed" everything? Didn't he say something different? Something about it being an unwise servant who doesn't do HIS OWN WORK???
rockpond Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Your "faith" isn't based on whatever anti-mormons say happened in the past which near all LDS scholars have debunked, nor whatever human weaknesses that may have occured or anti-mormons THINK actually occured.If your faith is based on men be it anti-mormon judgments or the judgements and mistakes of men in the church, then you lose.If your faith is based on the over-all good, right and truth, then you win.Also, please tell me how anti-mormon claims are related to "Faith"....?You think the Church should teach anti-mormon history and every little wart or possible wart, instead of teaching the Saving and Exalting Gospel of Jesus Christ, something they hardly even have enough TIME to do itself?And since when have you "not" been told the truth upfront?Go to any LDS Bookstore, Library, Church Library, and you can find near all the "truth" you want.Since when did God say man was to be "forcefed" everything? Didn't he say something different? Something about it being an unwise servant who doesn't do HIS OWN WORK???Who said anything about anti-Mormon claims?My faith crisis came while studying church sources as an early morning seminary teacher.
jkwilliams Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 Who said anything about anti-Mormon claims?My faith crisis came while studying church sources as an early morning seminary teacher. More poor choices. You never should have taught seminary. 1
williamsmith Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 "An apology for the harm done"......? Don't hold your breath on this one. There first has to be an acknowledgment that there was any harm done (blame the victim) and as you can see by Buzzard's statement, there is only quick defense and self-justification at any cost. Sorry, the church does not hold the keys of eternal life.........Christ has that particular privilege.......nor does any other man-made organization existing on earth today. "Victim".....?So, a person believing anti-mormon lies and perversions of the truth, thus being lies and perversions of the Devil himself, is the "Church" doing harm on a person instead of the Devil doing harm on that person?Woe unto those who call good evil and evil good. The Church is the victim of anti-mormon false attacks, not those who willingly believe those falsehoods. But, they are victims of anti-mormonism. Thus yes, anti-mormonism should be the one apologizing.
williamsmith Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) Who said anything about anti-Mormon claims?My faith crisis came while studying church sources as an early morning seminary teacher. So, you never went online and "verified" and compared, etc., never read an anti-mormon book?The "middle" and "end" is just as important as the beginning.Many have seen the same things you did, but kept studying, and they learned the truth contrary to anti-mormon claims. Also, where do you think anti-mormon claims come from? They come from people reading things they don't understand or doesn't seem right to them, they latch onto them, and then can't see anything else which would bring them to the actual truth. You're not the first to encounter something from church sources that didn't make sense. The question is what did you do next, and next, and next. What was your "focus", what did you study from, how strong was your actual faith, it clearly was fairly easily challenged, that you didn't give the Church the benefit of the doubt. So, try again. BTW, I'm a convert and have been an anti-mormon after being in the church, so I know what happens and the thought processes and actions people take that get them to where they end up. Edited June 7, 2014 by williamsmith
jkwilliams Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 So, you never went online and "verified" and compared, etc., never read an anti-mormon book?The "middle" and "end" is just as important as the beginning.Many have seen the same things you did, but kept studying, and they learned the truth contrary to anti-mormon claims. Also, where do you think anti-mormon claims come from? They come from people reading things they don't understand or doesn't seem right to them, they latch onto them, and then can't see anything else which would bring them to the actual truth. So, try again. I never read an anti-Mormon book until long after I left the church. I respect those who look at the evidence and come to different conclusions from mine, but I don't respect those who refuse to acknowledge that there are any actual problems. "Lies and falsehoods" is dismissive nonsense.
Kenngo1969 Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 I'm more of a stealth crusader. I just pretend to be sincere while working to undermine the church one testimony at a time.So, since I was pretty much spot-on, you're not bristling with umbrage, I take it?
jkwilliams Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 So, since I was pretty much spot-on, you're not bristling with umbrage, I take it? It's more effective as a professional anti-Mormon to pretend not to take umbrage.
williamsmith Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 (edited) I never read an anti-Mormon book until long after I left the church. I respect those who look at the evidence and come to different conclusions from mine, but I don't respect those who refuse to acknowledge that there are any actual problems. "Lies and falsehoods" is dismissive nonsense. The question is is how well did you look at the evidence and how much and how patiently, and how good was your faith, or did you just fall once challenged with things you didn't understand, thus your faith wasn't strong at all, you were weak in the faith?Again, as someone who's been anti-mormon, I know exactly how people become anti-mormon, what they see and don't see.And I refuse to acknowledge people who claim more "problems" then there actually are, and it is yours and other anti-mormon "distortions" of the actual truth that makes them look like "problems". If I didn't know different, and believed every anti-mormon claim as true, I would think the Church is a "kook" religion, and which is btw something most think of it because most of what they know of it is simply anti-mormon easy attack claims. Edited June 7, 2014 by williamsmith
jkwilliams Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 The question is is how well did you look at the evidence and how much and how patiently, and how good was your faith, or did you just fall once challenged with things you didn't understand, thus your faith wasn't strong at all, you were weak in the faith?Again, as someone who's been anti-mormon, I know exactly how people become anti-mormon, what they see and don't see.And I refuse to acknowledge people who claim more "problems" then there actually are, and it is yours and other anti-mormon "distortions" of the actual truth that makes them look like "problems". If I didn't know different, and believed every anti-mormon claim as true, I would think the Church is a "kook" religion, and which is btw something most think of it because most of what they know of it is simply anti-mormon easy attack claims. With all due respect, you are not me, and you do not know "exactly how people become anti-Mormon." If you have resolved the issues to your satisfaction, good for you. I have simply reached different conclusions, and I'm quite happy with them. Unlike you, I don't feel the need to judge your character or intellect or faith.
ERayR Posted June 7, 2014 Posted June 7, 2014 But for me, the additional "weightier" matters are the souls for which I have stewardship, I'll continue to do what I can to help them before, through, and after crises of faith. I resent your insinuation that I don't care about someone who has chosen to take offense and finds themselves in a crisis of faith. You make it sound as if I am a heartless b******. I have spent many many hours with members discussing these points. My observation is that the quicker they understand they have a choice as to what to believe the quicker we can seriously discus these issues. 2
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