Bug Spray

[bluebell]

I quoted the lyrics of that popular primary song as a means of highlighting a cultural issue we have in the church.  Think:  14 Fundamentals.

I guess i'm just not understanding you exactly.

If you were going to try to teach the scriptural truth of "whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same" and "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" to a group of kids ages 3-11 thru song, how would you do that without falling into the 'cultural issue' you have mentioned?

 

And I agree that personal scripture study and prayer are critical but they become difficult when a faith crisis has caused one to question God and the authenticity of scripture.

 

 

I can understand that.  

 

(on that topic-I do understand it.  But from my perspective (which i know doesn't mean much to someone else), it's also not a very good reason not to do it.  Having major abdominal surgery makes it very difficult to get up and walk.  However, the reason the mean nurses make you get up and walk mere hours after having one is because it's the fastest and best way to heal, and to stave off other serious problems.  Likewise, if the crisis is losing faith in God, then wisdom would suggest more exposure to God, and not less, is the medicine most needed)

 

But like i said earlier, i wasn't addressing faith crises; I was just talking about how in general some people (believing or not) can get so caught up in things that they strain at gnats.  

 

My point was that a lot of times the 'gnats' are just more interesting to focus on, and that it seems to be human nature that makes us vulnerable to focusing on the interesting over the important sometimes.

[rockpond]

If you were going to try to teach the scriptural truth of "whether by mine own voice or the voice of my servants it is the same" and "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets" to a group of kids ages 3-11 thru song, how would you do that without falling into the 'cultural issue' you have mentioned?

 

I don't think there is a simple answer to that.  But I'd start with backing away (with the adults) from the simplicity of the ideas repeated presented in the 14 Fundamentals address.  What you teach the adults will ultimately filter through to the kids.

 

My point was that a lot of times the 'gnats' are just more interesting to focus on, and that it seems to be human nature that makes us vulnerable to focusing on the interesting over the important sometimes.

 

I guess I just haven't witnessed this.

[bluebell]

I don't think there is a simple answer to that.  But I'd start with backing away (with the adults) from the simplicity of the ideas repeated presented in the 14 Fundamentals address.  What you teach the adults will ultimately filter through to the kids.

 

 

So are you saying that we shouldn't have primary or primary songs anymore and instead just let parents teach their children the gospel?  Sincerely asking as i'm still not sure i'm understanding you.

 

[Calm]

Yes, and it wouldn't have to be like that had we known the truth upfront to base our faith on. Now it's a different ballgame and therefore a game changer. Maybe an apology for the harm done might help.

Perfect victim statement. Precise and to the point. Only better one I've seen is "it's not my fault!"

[Calm]

It depends on where one goes to get their truth.

 

Glenn

And it depends even more on how one personally chooses to respond to it.

[Storm Rider]

Thank you for this. Some of the posts in this thread I find very hurtful and dismissive, and I struggled to come up with a polite response. While I would hope you would be more careful in describing other faith traditions, I think I understand where you're coming from. The church is your spiritual home. IMO, that means it's where you should be. But, as you say, it may not be so for others, like me.

 

I think I recall your name is John; forgive me if my memory is not correct. John, my summaries of other churches and/or religions are personal and should be understood as what I have found for me.  I have ex-LDS friends who have found a home within Catholicism and I am happy for them because they have found more peace and happiness.  I believe that the Spirit leads us to where we flourish best; if it is time to move on the Spirit will guide you.  You may find your place anywhere; it is not my place to judge what is best for you or anyone else.  I think more importantly, it is not surprising that our pursuit of truth and holiness may return us to where we once were or may continue to move us along.

 

We are individuals with limited abilities simply are trying to do our best.  At times, our best may appear as barely worth the appellation of trying, but it is who we are at that moment and it is all we have to give. I think most of our burdens are invisible to others and few know us well enough to begin to comprehend our trials and struggles.  

 

John, I honestly believe our Father in Heaven desires for each of us to be happy; not only in eternity, but also here on earth.  He has given a plethora of options to learn of him and his truths and all of those options have differing degrees of truth.  If you have found happiness then I can celebrate with you.  That we may each know joy and have it more abundantly in our lives is why our Savior is so very important.  God bless you where you are at and where'er the Spirit may lead you. 

[Calm]

This rings true. I can't believe my post comes out as I'm a victim again, I keep playing that card.

Not having read this before posting the above, I will add this advice: maybe you should put some serious time and effort into examining why you go there so often, what reward you get out of going there so often and how to stop it...if you really do. Edited June 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[rockpond]

So are you saying that we shouldn't have primary or primary songs anymore and instead just let parents teach their children the gospel?  Sincerely asking as i'm still not sure i'm understanding you.

 

 

No.  The primary song lyrics were just an illustration.  

[Calm]

Trivializing faith crises and denigrating those who struggle isn't helpful to the overall strength of the church or hastening the work.

Pretending the root of the crisis isn't found in each individual's unique structure doesn't help either. There are many who encounter the same thing, dig deep into the controversy and somehow process it without feeling victimised by it.

I don't believe feeling sideswiped or thrown off by learning you understood things in the wrong way, possibly because you were taught wrongly (given my experiences of going over the same text or seeing a video and realising that it says something completely different than I remembered and thought I had learned from it, I never assume that just because I learned something wrong, the source of the error is in what taught me and not how I processed it...I don't care in fact what is much more important to me is what I do with the better---- undoubtedly still incorrect in some way---information) is something bad/sinful/shameful or anything to cause me to look down on someone. People process new information in their own way and initially, reception may be something we have little control over. However we can choose to develop attitudes that respond to new ideas and info in positive ways (even if that implies some harsh things about how we were taught in the past) or we can waste a lot of time and energy in chewing over what happened in the past and why it doesn't match our present and in the meantime impede our ability to absorb that better info more effectively and then do good with it.

As someone who has little to spare, using that treasured resources on what ifs and it should have been this way is something I just can't afford. Even if one has an abundance of energy, time and attention there are so many better things to focus on....such as what wonders do I want to go and see (doesn't that sound at least somewhat more appealing than what garbage pits have I stumbled into?...and I am not pretending people in the church haven't created some stinky pits that others than have stumbled into, I just think it is a real shame when the effort is then spent on pointing out to others how horrendous the garbage stench rather than pulling oneself out and getting washed off, by oneself or with help).

Edited June 6, 2014 by calmoriah

[ERayR]

 

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; don't go astray.

Follow the prophet, follow the prophet,

Follow the prophet; HE knows the way.

 

 

Trivializing faith crises and denigrating those who struggle isn't helpful to the overall strength of the church or hastening the work.

 

 

Words of good advice.

 

Nobody is trivializing it.Poor choices can have dire and lasting effects.  Make no mistake a faith crisis is a matter of choice.

[rockpond]

Words of good advice.

 

Nobody is trivializing it.Poor choices can have dire and lasting effects.  Make no mistake a faith crisis is a matter of choice.

 

It certainly was not a matter of choice for me.  And I know others who feel the same.  So I reject your conclusion that it is a choice.

[Calm]

I see two things in your observation:

 

2. Controversy (“disagreement, typically when prolonged, public, and heated”--Google) with the Church is one-sidedly contentious. This is because the Church is calm and confident, having the same attitude as Paul and Joseph Smith with regards to the weightier matters: “I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do.

There are however individual members who are contentious and unfortunately at times people identify them as 'The Church' rather than just a very small part of a much greater organization of varied individuals.

If people choose to latch onto some members as painting the picture of all members, confusion and even contention will result. People are not one size fits all not even LDS no matter how cookie cutter some say we are (anyone who claims so has taken very little time and effort to actually look at us.

A lot of pain in the world could be removed if people learned to see those who harmed them or were negative as the limited reality of what they are and not build walls (of perception at the very least) that were meant to keep them safe but end up preventing themselves from engaging with a lot of very good people (and that includes anyone who has put up walls to 'keep the world out' and won't relate to anything that isn't stamped 'Mormon'.

[Kenngo1969]

The church took what it took from my life, and I won't get it back, but I don't expect or ask for any apology or redress or anything like that. I am trying to look forward, not back.

 

I should say that I don't view the church as an entirely negative influence in my life. It is what it is, and I realize that the good and the bad contributed to who I am. And I am fine with who I am.

John, you simply don't understand how truly, horribly victimized you were, and as a Victim , you were and are simply at the mercy of The Evil Empire .  You must crusade!   Everyone must come to understand that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is, at its core, a truly evil, soul-destroying cult!  And, as a Victim , you completely lack the ability to say "That was then, this is now," to let bygones be bygones, to refuse to be held hostage by any untoward events in your past in which the church may have played a role, and to chart your own course henceforth.  Don't you care about humanity? Don't you care about the souls, many of whom are yet to be born, of those who run the very real risk of being caught in this organization's life-sapping tentacles?  Because of your inexplicable, inexcusable apathy, I must say, you are a truly despicable human being!

 

 

P.S.: And for those of you who didn't get it and are, incensed and bursting with umbrage, preparing to leap to John's defense ... Beep-beep-beep!  Irony Alert!  Irony Alert! Beep-beep-beep!

Edited June 6, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[rockpond]

Pretending the root of the crisis isn't found in each individual's unique structure doesn't help either. There are many who encounter the same thing, dig deep into the controversy and somehow process it without feeling victimised by it.

 

I agree except I don't believe that you can pin it just on the individual.  As a church, we will lose opportunities to "hasten the work" if we continually say that faith crises are solely the fault of the individual.

 

I don't believe feeling sideswiped or thrown off by learning you understood things in the wrong way, possibly because you were taught wrongly (given my experiences of going over the same text or seeing a video and realising that it says something completely different than I remembered and thought I had learned from it, I never assume that just because I learned something wrong, the source of the error is in what taught me and not how I processed it...I don't care in fact what is much more important to me is what I do with the better---- undoubtedly still incorrect in some way---information) is something bad/sinful/shameful or anything to cause me to look down on someone. People process new information in their own way and initially, reception may be something we have little control over. However we can choose to develop attitudes that respond to new ideas and info in positive ways (even if that implies some harsh things about how we were taught in the past) or we can waste a lot of time and energy in chewing over what happened in the past and why it doesn't match our present and in the meantime impede our ability to absorb that better info more effectively and then do good with it.

As someone who has little to spare, using that treasured resources on what ifs and it should have been this way is something I just can't afford. Even if one has an abundance of energy, time and attention there are so many better things to focus on....such as what wonders do I want to go and see (doesn't that sound at least somewhat more appealing than what garbage pits have I stumbled into?)

 

I agree with all this but none of it absolves the church or its members for mistakes we have made and facing the consequences of those mistakes.

 

We can sit here and blame the individuals for not interpreting information in a faith promoting manner or we can improve the way we teach in an effort to curb the pain and losses.

[Calm]

It certainly was not a matter of choice for me.  And I know others who feel the same.  So I reject your conclusion that it is a choice.

I would say the initial response, whether shock, guilt, anger or whatever is most likely not a choice save for the fact that even our initial responses have been developed by our choices we've made in the past. We then create the person we are and that includes how we react to new information.

We can't really do anything about that at the time we are experiencing troubling concerns....that knowledge should not be ignored but filed away so we can work on it when times are more stable and we have more control over what is happening to us.

Once the shock has worn off, do you believe we then have a choice to stop and examine ourselves, evaluate what we are doing and feeling and then have a choice on how we want to develop our response to the crisis?

[rockpond]

I would say the initial response, whether shock, guilt, anger or whatever is most likely not a choice save for the fact that even our initial responses have been developed by our choices we've made in the past. We then create the person we are and that includes how we react to new information.

We can't really do anything about that at the time we are experiencing troubling concerns....that knowledge should not be ignored but filed away so we can work on it when times are more stable and we have more control over what is happening to us.

Once the shock has worn off, do you believe we then have a choice to stop and examine ourselves, evaluate what we are doing and feeling and then have a choice on how we want to develop our response to the crisis?

 

Yes, each individual is accountable for their response.  But we, as a church and a faith community, are responsible for the what we may have done to lead into the crisis and what teachings we have provided to navigate that response.

 

For example, using a point I made earlier in the thread... If a member has been taught and has internalized the "14 Fundamentals" and then is faced with contradictory information.  We cannot put the sole responsibility on the member to undo what they were taught about the role of a prophet.

Edited June 6, 2014 by rockpond

[Calm]

I agree except I don't believe that you can pin it just on the individual.  As a church, we will lose opportunities to "hasten the work" if we continually say that faith crises are solely the fault of the individual.

It is the response to the crisis I am concerned about. Too many people focus on the moment of shock and despair and act like that is all they have to work with. Perhaps i am overly optimistic, but i think it is the uncommon individual who is forced (by never having the chance to learn a better way) to live life in that way.

All of us have crises in our lives. It will only get harder over time to deal with them if we continue to see ourselves as victims of it rather than accepting that life is just royally screwed up at times, incuding life in the Church and its members and we need to do whatever we can (which often starts with minuscule changes but can grow into things significant if we try) to move ourselves out of victim mode into self actualiser mode (for want of a better word, my mind isn't feeling creative at the moment and fell back to an old psych term that got way overused).

[ERayR]

It certainly was not a matter of choice for me.  And I know others who feel the same.  So I reject your conclusion that it is a choice.

 

One always has a choice as to what we accept or reject or whose interpretation of events we choose to believe.  Many things are presented for shock value and again you have a choice between accepting the "shocking revelation" and doing further research.  You also can choose how you let it color your judgements.  So yes you have choices.  Do you not think that after 7 decades I have not heard a great many of these "shocking revelations"? 

[ERayR]

Yes, each individual is accountable for their response.  But we, as a church and a faith community, are responsible for the what we may have done to lead into the crisis and what teachings we have provided to navigate that response.

 

For example, using a point I made earlier in the thread... If a member has been taught and has internalized the "14 Fundamentals" and then is faced with contradictory information.  We cannot put the sole responsibility on the member to undo what they were taught about the role of a prophet.

 

See above post

[Calm]

Yes, each individual is accountable for their response.  But we, as a church and a faith community, are responsible for the what we may have done to lead into the crisis and what teachings we have provided to navigate that response.

I just see spending decades of debate on identifying where people went wrong as a waste of effort. Accept that it happened, work on learning how to avoid it happening in the future (which is usually best done by paying attention to what relatively immediate effect we have on others as variables get complicated and confusing the more time goes on) and deal with the individual in the here and now and what can be done now to change things.

[rockpond]

One always has a choice as to what we accept or reject or whose interpretation of events we choose to believe.  Many things are presented for shock value and again you have a choice between accepting the "shocking revelation" and doing further research.  You also can choose how you let it color your judgements.  So yes you have choices.  Do you not think that after 7 decades I have not heard a great many of these "shocking revelations"? 

 

Do you think we could do any better as a church in the way we teach some of these things that cause people to have faith crises?

[ERayR]

I agree except I don't believe that you can pin it just on the individual.  As a church, we will lose opportunities to "hasten the work" if we continually say that faith crises are solely the fault of the individual.

 

 

I agree with all this but none of it absolves the church or its members for mistakes we have made and facing the consequences of those mistakes.

 

We can sit here and blame the individuals for not interpreting information in a faith promoting manner or we can improve the way we teach in an effort to curb the pain and losses.

 

If we don't put the blame on the individual then there is no personal responsibility and no need of repentance or the atonement.

[rockpond]

It is the response to the crisis I am concerned about. Too many people focus on the moment of shock and despair and act like that is all they have to work with. Perhaps i am overly optimistic, but i think it is the uncommon individual who is forced (by never having the chance to learn a better way) to live life in that way.

All of us have crises in our lives. It will only get harder over time to deal with them if we continue to see ourselves as victims of it rather than accepting that life is just royally screwed up at times, incuding life in the Church and its members and we need to do whatever we can (which often starts with minuscule changes but can grow into things significant if we try) to move ourselves out of victim mode into self actualiser mode (for want of a better word, my mind isn't feeling creative at the moment and fell back to an old psych term that got way overused).

 

I'm not advocating a victimization attitude.  I'm saying that as a church we look at what is causing faith crises and instead of only blaming the individual, we look internally at what we could do better to prevent the crises in the first place.

[rockpond]

If we don't put the blame on the individual then there is no personal responsibility and no need of repentance or the atonement.

 

Can blame be shared?

[rockpond]

I just see spending decades of debate on identifying where people went wrong as a waste of effort. Accept that it happened, work on learning how to avoid it happening in the future (which is usually best done by paying attention to what relatively immediate effect we have on others as variables get complicated and confusing the more time goes on) and deal with the individual in the here and now and what can be done now to change things.

 

The church is continually developing curriculum for us to teach and study.  General conferences provide 20 hours of instruction per year.  Stake conference broadcasts add to that.  Ward conferences get to a local level.  Sacrament meetings are planned on a weekly basis.  I'm not suggesting decades of debate - the system is in place and we are guided by men and women seeking the salvation of every last one of us.