Duncan Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 In reading this article it says http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604105/Depression-More-than-a-bad-hair-day.html "People with depression yearn for spiritual feelings and the warmth of God’s love, she said, but their symptoms often make it hard to sense and feel the Spirit’s positive comfort." Which is true but also we read in the Doctrine and Covenants 14:2 "behold, I am God;Give heed to my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow: Therefore give heed to my word" Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through the depression? why does it sound like depression is a Holy Ghost repellant, it's not like depressed people don't want the spirit or get revelation, it's like if you have depression, then you are cut off and can't feel the spirit despite what the DC says. What say ye?
teddyaware Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) In reading this article it says http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604105/Depression-More-than-a-bad-hair-day.html "People with depression yearn for spiritual feelings and the warmth of God’s love, she said, but their symptoms often make it hard to sense and feel the Spirit’s positive comfort." Which is true but also we read in the Doctrine and Covenants 14:2 "behold, I am God;Give heed to my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow: Therefore give heed to my word" Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through the depression? why does it sound like depression is a Holy Ghost repellant, it's not like depressed people don't want the spirit or get revelation, it's like if you have depression, then you are cut off and can't feel the spirit despite what the DC says. What say ye? I can only speak for myself on this point, but if it weren't for the influence Holy Ghost my depressive episodes would have surely been many times worse. It was the Holy Ghost that buoyed me up and gave me hope when if left to my own devises I would have been so thoroughly depressed that I might have wanted to "check out," if you know what I mean. Also, the Holy Ghost gave me occasional interludes of joy and happiness while in the midst of my worse bouts of depression, and these respites from the storm strengthened me to be better able to cope with the depression when it inevitably returned. It all boils down to the fact that if it weren't for the Holy Ghost my emotional pain, anxiety and feelings of aloneness would have been exponentially worse. Like the angel who strengthened Christ during His agony in Gethsemane, the Holy Ghost can strengthen and encourage us to endure to the end as we deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that may come our way as we sojourn in mortality. Edited May 30, 2014 by teddyaware 3
Duncan Posted May 30, 2014 Author Posted May 30, 2014 I can only speak for myself on this point, but if it weren't for the influence Holy Ghost my depressive episodes would have surely been many times worse. It was the Holy Ghost that buoyed me up and gave me hope when if left to my own devises I would have been so thoroughly depressed that I might have wanted to "check out," if you know what I mean. Also, the Holy Ghost gave me occasional interludes of joy and happiness while in the midst of my worse bouts of depression, and these respites from the storm strengthened me to be better able to cope with the depression when it inevitably returned. It all boils down to the fact that if it weren't for the Holy Ghost my emotional pain, anxiety and feelings of aloneness would have been exponentially worse. Like the angel who strengthened Christ during His agony in Gethsemane, the Holy Ghost can strengthen and encourage us to endure to the end as we deal with the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that may come our way as we sojourn in mortality. thank you!
Kenngo1969 Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) It's not an all-or-nothing proposition. And you could substitute any number of things for "depression" in the equation, e.g., "Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through schizophrenia?" "Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through obsessive-compulsive disorder?" or "Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through anxiety?" And why limit it to depression or to psychiatric diagnoses? There is a limitless number of things that might interfere with our perception of him. "Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through [whatever-I-don't-want-to-have-to-deal-with]?" Et cetera. As much as I might hate to admit it , "opposition in all things" (See 2 Nephi, Chapters 2 and 9) is simply a part of the plan. And, while people may equate Satan's influence with the fact that we live in a fallen world, I think they are subtly distinct forces. The fact of the matter is, even if pretty much everything else in someone's life is hunky-dory (How would it be? ) that person still faces difficulties of some sort simply as a result of the facts that we live in a fallen world and are separated from God. And I don't think it's proper to say that depression is a "Holy Ghost repellant": as Ted points out, it's not as though the Holy Ghost sez, "Uh-oh! Depression here! Sorry! Can't stick around! Sucks to be you! " as much as it is that depression interferes with our ability to perceive the Holy Ghost's influence. (I, too, have experience with this: like Ted, I believe things would have been [and would be] much worse without that influence.) (Again, you may ask what the distinction is between the Holy Ghost being absent, on the one hand, and experiencing interference which negatively affects our perception of him, on the other hand: perhaps its a subtle one, but I think it's significant.) And the Scripture you reference [Doctrine & Covenants 14:2] says that God's word is "quick and powerful," "sharper than a two-edged sword," can "[divide] asunder joints and marrow." I don't really want to be sliced in two, thank you very much! I'm not sure what the context of the verse is, but I think that matters: Yeah, if all else fails God may break out His sword and saw the most wicked and recalcitrant among us in half, but it's not as if that won't affect even Him emotionally. Think of Enoch: "How is it that Thou canst weep?" he asked God. What does God say? "These are the workmanship of mine hands." (See Moses 7:28 and verses following.) The Holy Ghost, on the other hand, is a still, small voice. As much as I hate to invoke a cliche, remember the story Footprints in the Sand: it wasn't that the Savior wasn't there when the man only saw one set of footprints. Depression notwithstanding, I'm grateful for the influences of the Savior, the Atonement, and the Holy Ghost in my life, and, although I now "see through a glass darkly," as Paul put it, I think that I, along with everyone else who strives to increase the influence of these things (and the perception of their influence) in my life, will be astounded at the degree to which these things exerted an influence in my life when I'm given the opportunity to look back on it in the Savior's presence. (It will be little wonder that many of us will fall on our faces then, and, weeping, will worship Him.) Edited May 30, 2014 by Kenngo1969 2
Popular Post Calm Posted May 30, 2014 Popular Post Posted May 30, 2014 For three years I was unable to feel the Spirit. I trusted based on past experience that it was there and attempting to communicate with me so I looked around and slowly developed other ways of communication, many listening to what others were saying much more carefully. A few days after going off an anti depressant for misdiagnosed chronic depression (actually slep deprivation for those who have heard my saga for the hundredth time) it was as if a literal weight/pressure was removed from the back of my brain and the Spirit along with some other mental and emotional sensations were restored. A very great relief.It taught me to accept that there are those who without fault who cannot utilised the Spirit whether it is limitations of their physical body interfering with communication or expression or understanding or their lives' circumstances having never given them a chance to develop that gift sufficiently to recognise the nuances. And since we are all limited in some way, I have come to the position it will be the rare person (if any) who experiences their 'full chance' to accept or reject the Gospel in this life. It makes much more sense to me that we are really all on the same playing field because the play goes far beyond the few acts taken at this dark and pitted area of the arena that we are currently stumbling around. The finish of our race will be in a brightly lit smoothly paved path where we can push ourselves to our ultimate limits unhindered by the temporary burdens we are now carrying to build up our muscles, develop better balance and pump up our motivation to seek out God, who is both our partner in the race and the end goal. 6
CV75 Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 In reading this article it says http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865604105/Depression-More-than-a-bad-hair-day.html "People with depression yearn for spiritual feelings and the warmth of God’s love, she said, but their symptoms often make it hard to sense and feel the Spirit’s positive comfort." Which is true but also we read in the Doctrine and Covenants 14:2 "behold, I am God;Give heed to my word, which is quick and powerful, sharper than a two-edged sword, to the dividing asunder of both joints and marrow: Therefore give heed to my word" Shouldn't the Holy Ghost cut through the depression? why does it sound like depression is a Holy Ghost repellant, it's not like depressed people don't want the spirit or get revelation, it's like if you have depression, then you are cut off and can't feel the spirit despite what the DC says. What say ye?Just some random thoughts about this: The blessings we seek are not always realized in this lifetime. Depressed people still have the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which also operates in the background and otherwise sanctifies the soul unbeknownst to the saint of any condition. So a depressed person is not repelling the Holy Ghost at all, he is just unable to feel undepressed. Just as people with physical maladies may sense that they cannot serve with all their heart, might, mind and strength, the Lord accepts what they can do (and what they can do is often by virtue of His grace anyway!). They do not “run and not be weary [or] …walk and not faint,” but someday they will! There are many divine attributes and gifts a depressed person can possess, and these are given in part by the Gift of the Holy Ghost. He can be just as inspirational to others as those who are not so afflicted. 2
Tacenda Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 For three years I was unable to feel the Spirit. I trusted based on past experience that it was there and attempting to communicate with me so I looked around and slowly developed other ways of communication, many listening to what others were saying much more carefully. A few days after going off an anti depressant for misdiagnosed chronic depression (actually slep deprivation for those who have heard my saga for the hundredth time) it was as if a literal weight/pressure was removed from the back of my brain and the Spirit along with some other mental and emotional sensations were restored. A very great relief.It taught me to accept that there are those who without fault who cannot utilised the Spirit whether it is limitations of their physical body interfering with communication or expression or understanding or their lives' circumstances having never given them a chance to develop that gift sufficiently to recognise the nuances. And since we are all limited in some way, I have come to the position it will be the rare person (if any) who experiences their 'full chance' to accept or reject the Gospel in this life. It makes much more sense to me that we are really all on the same playing field because the play goes far beyond the few acts taken at this dark and pitted area of the arena that we are currently stumbling around. The finish of our race will be in a brightly lit smoothly paved path where we can push ourselves to our ultimate limits unhindered by the temporary burdens we are now carrying to build up our muscles, develop better balance and pump up our motivation to seek out God, who is both our partner in the race and the end goal.You mean I have an excuse? Thanks Cal!!
Duncan Posted May 30, 2014 Author Posted May 30, 2014 Thank you for the responses! I know full well the ins and out of depression and was wondering what others' thoughts were! 1
jkwilliams Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 I never would have made such a connection. For me, depression just meant that I didn't like myself, had trouble concentrating, had panic attacks, and was tired all the time. But I don't remember any decrease in spiritual experiences related to the depression, and now that the depression is under control, I haven't noticed a change. I don't think I ever felt unloved by God, but I do remember times when there was no comfort and I felt totally alone and at an end, which had predictable results. 1
Duncan Posted May 30, 2014 Author Posted May 30, 2014 I never would have made such a connection. For me, depression just meant that I didn't like myself, had trouble concentrating, had panic attacks, and was tired all the time. But I don't remember any decrease in spiritual experiences related to the depression, and now that the depression is under control, I haven't noticed a change. I don't think I ever felt unloved by God, but I do remember times when there was no comfort and I felt totally alone and at an end, which had predictable results. thank you! I wonder what is the real world application of this dividing asunder of the Holy Ghost, like how does God communicate through depression?
jkwilliams Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 thank you! I wonder what is the real world application of this dividing asunder of the Holy Ghost, like how does God communicate through depression? Speaking for myself only, depression was always essentially narcissistic: I couldn't see beyond my own suffering. So, if there is a link at all between spiritual experience and depression, my guess is that it's that the depressed person is so absorbed in misery he or she isn't really open or receptive to anything outside, including the spirit. 1
Duncan Posted May 30, 2014 Author Posted May 30, 2014 Speaking for myself only, depression was always essentially narcissistic: I couldn't see beyond my own suffering. So, if there is a link at all between spiritual experience and depression, my guess is that it's that the depressed person is so absorbed in misery he or she isn't really open or receptive to anything outside, including the spirit. that's true, one gets so wound up in their own lot and they don't reach out or want to reach out, it's something to think about!
CV75 Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 thank you! I wonder what is the real world application of this dividing asunder of the Holy Ghost, like how does God communicate through depression?I think those who serve the depressed by whatever means they can are a means of God's communciation to the depressed. As long as the depressed person can remember the Lord (in thought, word or deed), that is an acheivement even if he cannot actually feel the Lord, and that is a signal of God's communication to him. He may be able to recognize the Lord's hand in various things around him. All these things and otehrs are evidence of the Holy Ghost's involvement. Elder Holland gave a talk https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/like-a-broken-vessel?lang=eng about responding to mental or emotional challenges. 1
JDave Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) I think one of the main differences is expected outcomes. If someone is feeling down, and they choose to read their scriptures, sing a hymn, pray, go serve their neighbor, etc. as a way to get over it, they might reasonably expect the result to be that they truly don't feel down anymore. This, in fact, works well most times. It works so well that it is prescribed -- "You're feeling down? Read your scriptures! Pray! Forget yourself and serve others! That'll help you out!" But for depression or some other mental illnesses, it may at times be near impossible to even DO some of those things. And the result of doing them doesn't work out near as often as it does for most people. So while I wouldn't say that people with depression cannot feel the influence of the Holy Ghost, it still is difficult to manage expectations and to not feel utterly unworthy and wonder what else you are doing wrong -- as if there wasn't enough of that going on in your head. ETA: Along with the excellent talk by Elder Holland, I thought this Ensign article was really helpful: Myths about Mental Illness. Edited May 30, 2014 by JDave 2
thesometimesaint Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 George Albert Smith suffered with long term Clinical Depression. I don't believe that we should make too many assumptions about mental illness and the Holy Ghost. 1
Senator Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 (edited) I watched my father change over night due to an undetected bleeding ulcer that left him collapsed on the floor from loss of blood. His mental and emotional state was never the same. After many many months he was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder. During his crashes, I would observed, almost in horror, as he would lay, literally moaning with a certain bottomless darkness, foreboding and despair. When this was new, and we were naive, we would counsel him and try to get him to read the scriptures and pray, thinking if he could just feel the spirit it would comfort him. But what he would describe to us of what he was experiencing was beyond our capacity to comprehend. He said eveything to him....the scriptures, prayer, church, even familial affections of his wife and home were as if they alien and irreconcilably displaced. Then, as he would cycle, his "highs" would be that of incredible joy, vitality, and spirituality. To cut to the chase, because of this I now have a great many questions as to what we attribute to "the spirit" over our own biology. Edited May 30, 2014 by Senator
Walden Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 Funny/interesting......my depression decreased exponentially after I left the LDS faith.
thesometimesaint Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 I watched my father change over night due to an undetected bleeding ulcer that left him collapsed on the floor from loss of blood. His mental and emotional state was never the same. After many many months he was finally diagnosed with bipolar disorder. During his crashes, I would observed, almost in horror, as he would lay, literally moaning with a certain bottomless darkness, foreboding and despair. When this was new, and we were naive, we would counsel him and try to get him to read the scriptures and pray, thinking if he could just feel the spirit it would comfort him. But what he would describe to us of what he was experiencing was beyond our capacity to comprehend. He said eveything to him....the scriptures, prayer, church, even familial affections of his wife and home were as if they alien and irreconcilably displaced. Then, as he would cycle, his "highs" would be that of incredible joy, vitality, and spirituality. To cut to the chase, because of this I now have a great many questions as to what we attribute to "the spirit" over our own biology. I am so sorry for your father. I can only imagine the pain he and you went through. Did your father get help from professional mental health workers?
thesometimesaint Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 Funny/interesting......my depression decreased exponentially after I left the LDS faith. The placebo effect is real.
Walden Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 The placebo effect is real. Are you talking about the "placebo effect" of thinking that you have the Holy Ghost watching over you, or the effect of the lifting of depression after abandoning the thought that there is a Holy Ghost watching over you, because one could easily make the argument for the "placebo effect" in which a member thinks that there is a Holy Ghost watching over them, despite the fact that there really isn't. Either way, in the end, if the effect is good, then does it really matter whether or not it is the result of a placebo?
thesometimesaint Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 .Either way, in the end, if the effect is good, then does it really matter whether or not it is the result of a placebo? Agreed. Correlation is not causation.
VideoGameJunkie Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 I've suffered from bad depression and anxiety for over a decade now, so I hope the Holy Ghost feelings of warmth are still there.
Senator Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 I am so sorry for your father. I can only imagine the pain he and you went through. Did your father get help from professional mental health workers?Thank you. Yes he did get help. Medications have been effective in stabilizing his emotional swings. (to an extent)
jkwilliams Posted May 30, 2014 Posted May 30, 2014 Funny/interesting......my depression decreased exponentially after I left the LDS faith. I wouldn't put it that way, but I don't think I was capable of recognizing and treating the depression until after I left the church. The first two years after I left were pretty awful, but nowadays I would say I'm much happier than I was when I was in the church. If nothing else, I was dealing with depression when I was active in the church, and I'm not now.
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