Marrying A Reurned Missionary

[Kenngo1969]

... the continued activity/membership and conversion rates for those marrying outside the Church are dismal.  With a 50% activity rate, what happens when the inactive marry the inactive?  In all the above cases, virtually none of the children grow up active or believing and are pruned from the vineyard.

 

There's a reason why the Church meets together oft.  It's the same reason why we must have this type of marriage mindset, and that is to protect each other from stumbling blocks.  A person can have the greatest testimony in the world, but more often than not, if he's alone, he will eventually be ground down. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969].

 

While love is important in a marriage, it is not the reason for marriage.  There is love aplenty without marriage.  What you are doing is selecting a mate who will best be able to co-operate with you in raising a family.  Sounds cynical and mechanical on the surface, but when you think about it, that's how God evolved us.  What the Church does is help us add the spiritual selection to the natural.

Oh, so that's why I feel like a fine powder!  (Sadly, speaking from personal experience, I know that's true.   )  In my own personal case, I don't know what to do about it.  I wouldn't want to take away anyone else's moral agency.  The one thing I've learned in my long and tortured (sick and twisted? ) "social life" is that you can't manufacture chemistry.  If it ain't there, it ain't there.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Duncan]

Well, that's a true fact.  Many go home and later are inactive, I don't know if it's because they felt like failures, not that that is what you're saying.  I see it happening all the time.  But hey think, what are the percentages?  I'll bet we don't have those yet or we do.  But it's still significant, the numbers going out.  It's the "in" thing right now, to go on missions, atleast in my world.  I can't think of one missionary that came home early in the last several years in my ward, I just hear/read it happening elsewhere.  I think it's as traumatic to come home early as it is to stay when you don't want to, or more so. 

 

Duncan, sorry you're still having problems with the missionaries.  Is there an environmental issue?  Are the missionaries coming from totally different climates?  Lame I'm blaming it on the climate, huh?  Is it the early age that is the problem?  Darn, wish I had some advice.  But of course I'm not the best source.    

 

 

baby it's cold outside!! That adds to it but I don't think it's the biggest thing. I think maturity has to do with it. I tell the missionaries that it's all rah rah rah, pep rally stuff until you get to the field and then the rubber hits the road and just take everything one step at a time and you'll make it, roll with the punches.We had a few close calls of people going home but 6 were successful in that. One elder said if he knew he'd be on facebook and doing church tours he could have stayed home and done that. I think once you get over the hump of a mission you'll be fine and things settle in and then it's fun and time flies by. In our case it's been 4 sisters and 2 elders but the close calls were all elders. One thing too is our ward is where the Mission President lives but he is hardly ever around so I wonder if they send people here to get a closer eye on but I do know that other wards have had missionaries go home early too, but none as high as ours. Plus there are some interesting people coming on missions that makes you wonder if they ever raised the bar

[Duncan]

We have had 3 missionaries come home early in the past 3 years.  1 for health reasons, the other 2 were sent home for unresolved/continuing issues.

 

that's interesting. In our stake the 3 flakiest, non commital guys I know all came home early, one isn't active, one is surprisingly in a bishopric (they do that around here to reactivate guys) and the other is around. All came home because for emotional concerns and one for lack of testimony. But I know a TON of inactive RMs from here but they didn't come early, they came home and then bailed on the church

[ERMD]

These YM can be heartbreaking cases.  One who was sent home had done a lot of stupid things in high school and his first year of college which basically would have eliminated him as a missionary candidate anyway.  He was not forthcoming through all the interview process.

 

One thing he said to me afterward was, "What LDS girl would want to marry a guy like me?"

 

I wept for him., and still do.

[Duncan]

These YM can be heartbreaking cases.  One who was sent home had done a lot of stupid things in high school and his first year of college which basically would have eliminated him as a missionary candidate anyway.  He was not forthcoming through all the interview process.

 

One thing he said to me afterward was, "What LDS girl would want to marry a guy like me?"

 

I wept for him., and still do.

 

 

hopefully he'll come back! I think some people have to hit rock bottom before they turn around and some come back and some don't

[Kenngo1969]

These YM can be heartbreaking cases.  One who was sent home had done a lot of stupid things in high school and his first year of college which basically would have eliminated him as a missionary candidate anyway.  He was not forthcoming through all the interview process.

 

One thing he said to me afterward was, "What LDS girl would want to marry a guy like me?"

 

I wept for him., and still do.

One need not be guilty of major sin (or of not being forthcoming about it) to find himself in that situation.  I'm a not-so-YM-anymore.  I don't believe in God-as-Santa-Claus and in quid pro quo obedience.  I'm far from perfect, but the things I do in the Gospel, I do because they fill my soul, and not because God won't give me "presents" if I'm not "good." I haven't gone inactive, and (God willing, will not).  I served an honorable mission, have held many callings in the Church, am an Eagle Scout and seminary graduate.  But I got stuck short of marriage in the whole go-on-a-mission, come-home, start-school, start-dating, find-a-mate, start-a-career, start-a-family thing.  I ask myself that same question.  I still haven't found an answer.  "Major sin" or not, no one can make it halfway through this life or into the next without the Savior.  Why haven't I gotten married or found at least modest success in a career?  "I know not the meaning of all things; nevertheless, I know that God loveth His children."  I could drive myself crazy repeatedly asking myself the questions I don't have the answers to, but why bother?  What's the point? My biggest struggle is refusing to be defined by what I lack. 

[Bikeemikey]

I loved serving my mission...

Not only should LDS women want to marry RM's, but tracting in the rain guarantees that you will get to marry the best looking of em.

[Stargazer]

I think that some people worry about the truthiness of the Church because so many people are inactive.

 

But I am familiar with the Lord's parables, and it is very clear that He expects that many will fall by the wayside.  And that would include RM's too.

 

It's still sad.

[mormonnewb]

It's absolutely imperative that the Church foster a marry an RM/member mindset. For one, RM men typically are the most active/believing/willing/capable to serve men in the Church.

 

In addition, the continued activity/membership and conversion rates for those marrying outside the Church are dismal.  With a 50% activity rate, what happens when the inactive marry the inactive?  In all the above cases, virtually none of the children grow up active or believing and are pruned from the vineyard.

 

There's a reason why the Church meets together oft.  It's the same reason why we must have this type of marriage mindset, and that is to protect each other from stumbling blocks.  A person can have the greatest testimony in the world, but more often than not, if he's alone, he will eventually be ground down.

 

While love is important in a marriage, it is not the reason for marriage.  There is love aplenty without marriage.  What you are doing is selecting a mate who will best be able to co-operate with you in raising a family.  Sounds cynical and mechanical on the surface, but when you think about it, that's how God evolved us.  What the Church does is help us add the spiritual selection to the natural.

I think we might be confusing cause and effect. RMs may stay active at higher rates because of how much better they are treated than their "slacker" counterparts. Not many people are interested in being second class citizens. If not serving a mission, relegated me to only dating those "sweet spirits" and serving the lowliest of callings, I'd probably find another church (or not at all).

[Bikeemikey]

I think we might be confusing cause and effect. RMs may stay active at higher rates because of how much better they are treated than their "slacker" counterparts. Not many people are interested in being second class citizens. If not serving a mission, relegated me to only dating those "sweet spirits" and serving the lowliest of callings, I'd probably find another church (or not at all).

I totally disagree with this thought.

Missions are an exceptionally unique time and opportunity for spiritual development, societal pressures aside.

[Kenngo1969]

I think we might be confusing cause and effect. RMs may stay active at higher rates because of how much better they are treated than their "slacker" counterparts. Not many people are interested in being second class citizens. If not serving a mission, relegated me to only dating those "sweet spirits" and serving the lowliest of callings, I'd probably find another church (or not at all).

Hmmm ...  While some members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints might treat those who did not serve missions as "second-class citizens" (at least in subtle ways), I doubt your assertion's applicability as a general principle.  I would be interested in seeing some data, if any exist (and if anyone has figured out a way to examine the issue empirically). While, admittedly, this experience is anecdotal, since I can only speak to what I know, I'll give you two examples.  I have a cousin who did not serve a mission.  He is currently active (last I heard, he serves in the leadership of his ward's Young Men's organization); he has an absolutely gorgeous wife, and they have three (or is it four now?) beautiful children; they have been sealed in the Temple; et cetera.  In no way is he treated as a second-class citizen, either by the leaders/members of his Ward or by the members of his immediate or extended family.  I also have a nephew who is nearly 22 and has not served a mission (and I don't know what the likelihood is that he will).  I'm not sure how active he is, but I know that neither his immediate nor his extended family "badger" him about serving a mission, openly lament the fact that he has not done so, or otherwise treat him with anything less than the love he deserves as a Child of God.  Another thing: How would I even know if someone hasn't served if I don't ask (and frankly, it's pretty far down on the list of my concerns)?

[Duncan]

None of the First Presidency served a mission and they all seemed to turn out all right. Obviously Pres. Monson was involved in the war and I am not sure why Pres. Eyring and Uchtdorf didn't serve

[mormonnewb]

Hmmm ... While some members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints might treat those who did not serve missions as "second-class citizens" (at least in subtle ways), I doubt your assertion's applicability as a general principle. I would be interested in seeing some data, if any exist (and if anyone has figured out a way to examine the issue empirically). While, admittedly, this experience is anecdotal, since I can only speak to what I know, I'll give you two examples. I have a cousin who did not serve a mission. He is currently active (last I heard, he serves in the leadership of his ward's Young Men's organization); he has an absolutely gorgeous wife, and they have three (or is it four now?) beautiful children; they have been sealed in the Temple; et cetera. In no way is he treated as a second-class citizen, either by the leaders/members of his Ward or by the members of his immediate or extended family. I also have a nephew who is nearly 22 and has not served a mission (and I don't know what the likelihood is that he will). I'm not sure how active he is, but I know that neither his immediate nor his extended family "badger" him about serving a mission, openly lament the fact that he has not done so, or otherwise treat him with anything less than the love he deserves as a Child of God. Another thing: How would I even know if someone hasn't served if I don't ask (and frankly, it's pretty far down on the list of my concerns)?

I admit that have NOT witnessed any "hostility" to non-RMs, although I have noticed a tendency of members to work their mission experience into conversations. "We need to wrap up this meeting before noon, which will be 3 pm in Argentina where I honorably served in the Buenos Aires mission."

Yet, I SUSPECT that the non-RM stigma might be greater in Zion. Just a hunch though ...

Edited May 4, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Kenngo1969]

 ... Yet, I SUSPECT that the non-RM stigma might be greater in Zion. Just a hunch though ...

Hmmm ...  Did I mention, I have a hunch that The Book of Mormon's Golden Plates are stored at Area 51?

 

(True, your "hunch" might be better than mine, at least as it regards individual members of the Church of Jesus Christ ...  I'm sure that some subtly treat those who have not served missions as second-class citizens, but I don't think there's any basis for concluding that such a problem is a systemic, widespread one ... even in "Zion."  (By the way, you live in Zion, wherever you are ... )

[mormonnewb]

Hmmm ... Did I mention, I have a hunch that The Book of Mormon's Golden Plates are stored at Area 51?

(True, your "hunch" might be better than mine, at least as it regards individual members of the Church of Jesus Christ ... I'm sure that some subtly treat those who have not served missions as second-class citizens, but I don't think there's any basis for concluding that such a problem is a systemic, widespread one ... even in "Zion." (By the way, you live in Zion, wherever you are ... )

And just to avoid any charges of anti-Utah bias, my hunch is based on sheer demographics. In Utah, a sister can be a lot pickier than she can be in, say, Alabama. I suspect the same is true with callings. Edited May 4, 2014 by mormonnewb

[Kenngo1969]

It's funny how, the further away from Utah one is, the more he seems to know what's going on here.

[mormonnewb]

It's funny how, the further away from Utah one is, the more he seems to know what's going on here.

I'm not that far from Utah. I live in AZ -- and the most Mormony part of it. Also, I travel to Utah quite often (I'll be in St George two days this week).

Also, I don't think that I have to be from pioneer stock to surmise that a woman with ready access to hundreds of thousands of Mormon men might feel that she can be pickier than the sister who only lives in a state with only two Mormon bachelors, one of whom is gay.

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not that far from Utah. I live in AZ -- and the most Mormony part of it. Also, I travel to Utah quite often (I'll be in St George two days this week).

Also, I don't think that I have to be from pioneer stock to surmise that a woman with ready access to hundreds of thousands of Mormon men might feel that she can be pickier than the sister who only lives in a state with only two Mormon bachelors, one of whom is gay.

Fair enough.  My assumption about your location was unwarranted.  In my defense, there is no shortage of people who, while they do not live anywhere near the location under discussion, seem to think that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should allow its headquarters city (or parts thereof) to degenerate into a slum.  My response is always that, before worrying about what sort of investment The Church of Jesus Christ makes in the city, there are plenty of slums which already exist and that they should pick one and move there before demanding that the Church prove its charitable bona fides by allowing Salt Lake City to degenerate into one.

 

As for Utah Mormon women being able to afford being picky, while I lack both the hubris necessary to abridge the moral agency of a woman by demanding that she couple herself with me when it is not her desire to do so and the hubris necessary to assume that, since I am God's gift to women , it is inexplicable that one should choose to spend life and eternity with someone else, I agree: they are plenty picky; more than enough of them have picked someone else for me to know!

 

P.S.: And it turns out that I was more correct than I knew when I observed that you live in Zion! "Thank yuh!  Thank yuh verruh verruh much, ladies and gentlemen!"

Edited May 5, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Tacenda]

Kenngo, they are missing out. Or you are freezing up, and not showing your funny side? So many unhappy marriages are out there because men and women think they need to marry a certain type.

She's out there, it's just finding her... don't give up.

[Rodeo]

Counsel your children to find a soul they can find and share happiness together with. Some people make lists of who or what they want in a spouse but fail in the most important of all in knowing what type of person it takes to be compatible. There's gotta be that magic spark or there won't be any true love. When i was looking for a person to marry I looked entirely at if my heart was compatible with theirs. 

[mormonnewb]

Kenngo, they are missing out. Or you are freezing up, and not showing your funny side? So many unhappy marriages are out there because men and women think they need to marry a certain type.

She's out there, it's just finding her... don't give up.

Amen! Keep the faith, Kenngo.

[Kenngo1969]

Kenngo, they are missing out. Or you are freezing up, and not showing your funny side? So many unhappy marriages are out there because men and women think they need to marry a certain type.

She's out there, it's just finding her... don't give up.

 

Amen! Keep the faith, Kenngo.

 

And so I shall!  Thank you both for the encouragement.

[Kenngo1969]

Counsel your children to find a soul they can find and share happiness together with. Some people make lists of who or what they want in a spouse but fail in the most important of all in knowing what type of person it takes to be compatible. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969.]  There's gotta be that magic spark or there won't be any true love. When i was looking for a person to marry I looked entirely at if my heart was compatible with theirs. 

I have one indispensable, non-negotiable qualification.  Would you like to know what it is?  She must reciprocate my interest!  (Ay, there's the rub! )

[rodheadlee]

Get a dog, move to California, shop at Home Depot. you'll be married in a year. It would help if you took up surfing or sailing.

Edited May 8, 2014 by rodheadlee

[Raingirl]

Fair enough.  My assumption about your location was unwarranted.  In my defense, there is no shortage of people who, while they do not live anywhere near the location under discussion, seem to think that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints should allow its headquarters city (or parts thereof) to degenerate into a slum.  My response is always that, before worrying about what sort of investment The Church of Jesus Christ makes in the city, there are plenty of slums which already exist and that they should pick one and move there before demanding that the Church prove its charitable bona fides by allowing Salt Lake City to degenerate into one.

 

As for Utah Mormon women being able to afford being picky, while I lack both the hubris necessary to abridge the moral agency of a woman by demanding that she couple herself with me when it is not her desire to do so and the hubris necessary to assume that, since I am God's gift to women , it is inexplicable that one should choose to spend life and eternity with someone else, I agree: they are plenty picky; more than enough of them have picked someone else for me to know!

 

P.S.: And it turns out that I was more correct than I knew when I observed that you live in Zion! "Thank yuh!  Thank yuh verruh verruh much, ladies and gentlemen!"

Move to Oregon. We have a serious lack of single Mormon men here.