The Dark Side Of The Doctrine Of Eternal Familes

[Garden Girl]

Garden Girl, There is a difference in being married to a never-Mormon, as compared to an Apostate. There is heavy cultural baggage. Gossiping. Assumptions. Most of it never good.

Spammer, I am married to an atheist. I take comfort in the teachings of St. Paul, who said (paraphrasing) the unbelieving spouse is made holy by the believing spouse. Not words to be taken lightly. Assure your wife at all times and work towards bringing her the peace of Christ.

Peace be with you.

 

Hello saemo...

Yes, I can see how that is probably true for the most part...  sometimes I have to stop and try to imagine what is was like for my husband... who probably felt like... Whoa, what happened?! ... when his wife of 35 years returned to her faith and became TBM practically overnight.  I'm fortunate because as I've said, even though he would not attend, he did support me and my activity.

But regardless, I still had to deal with some of the fallout of the "aloneness."  The peace of Christ is there for his wife if she will embrace it and find the comfort that is there for her... and the fact that Spammer is supportive and wants her happiness is truly a blessing to her.

 

GG

[saemo]

Hello saemo...

Yes, I can see how that is probably true for the most part...  sometimes I have to stop and try to imagine what is was like for my husband... who probably felt like... Whoa, what happened?! ... when his wife of 35 years returned to her faith and became TBM practically overnight.  I'm fortunate because as I've said, even though he would not attend, he did support me and my activity.

But regardless, I still had to deal with some of the fallout of the "aloneness."  The peace of Christ is there for his wife if she will embrace it and find the comfort that is there for her... and the fact that Spammer is supportive and wants her happiness is truly a blessing to her.

 

GG

The same for my husband when I converted to Catholicism. His fear was that it would break our marriage apart. I told him it didn't have to, and he was good from there. He attended my baptism and goes to Mass with me once a year, on Christmas Eve. Cooks up veggie dishes for me on Friday. Etc.

 

I understand the feeling of being alone, as it is the same for me in my parish. Most people are there with their families, a few of us sit alone. I kind of like it, to tell the truth, most of the time as I can focus on worship, hang around longer or show up earlier to pray, if I want. Those with families always seem in a rush to leave. I take my time.

 

The biggest crush for me was as a new convert I had high hopes for my husband following me. I just KNEW God would touch him as he has touched me. One year, two years, 4 years, 6 years go by, and in there somewhere I had to come to terms with feeling very crushed. I imagine Spammer's wife had similar hopes for him returning to Mormonism, and as time goes by, the reality sets in very hard that it doesn't look likely to ever happen.

 

For a LDS temple marriage, there are things to worry over that as a Catholic, I just don't even think about. I trust God knows my husband's heart and will judge him with both justice and mercy. I have no worries he'll be in one heaven, alone, while I'm in another, alone. If he is in heaven, and I am in heaven, there we will be, together. That is where my Hope lies, in Jesus Christ.

 

I also think of a sister in law, who could not get pregnant and at a fast and testimony meeting I went to was crying her eyes out because she believed she was doing something very wrong, therefore, God would not bless her with children. If Spammer's wife has the same thing going for the blessings of a temple marriage, I imagine even the slightest comment or off look can be devastating.

 

I wouldn't even know how to begin to navigate that minefield.

 

As for the peace of Christ, I don't believe in can be found outside of the Eucharist.

 

God bless you.

Edited May 2, 2014 by saemo

[JDave]

For a LDS temple marriage, there are things to worry over that as a Catholic, I just don't even think about. I trust God knows my husband's heart and will judge him with both justice and mercy.

While there might be more distinct details to "worry over", I think the end doctrine is the same and Mormons can safely do without the excessing worry. Trusting in the mercy and understanding of the Savior is about all any of us Christians can do in these types of situations.

 

I also think of a sister in law, who could not get pregnant and at a fast and testimony meeting I went to was crying her eyes out because she believed she was doing something very wrong, therefore, God would not bless her with children. If Spammer's wife has the same thing going for the blessings of a temple marriage, I imagine even the slightest comment or off look can be devastating.

Feelings like this can be so easily devastating. I have seen similar situations amongst other Mormons, but I would be shocked if the same thing didn't happen in every religion. The tendency to self-doubt is very human.

[saemo]

While there might be more distinct details to "worry over", I think the end doctrine is the same and Mormons can safely do without the excessing worry. Trusting in the mercy and understanding of the Savior is about all any of us Christians can do in these types of situations. Feelings like this can be so easily devastating. I have seen similar situations amongst other Mormons, but I would be shocked if the same thing didn't happen in every religion. The tendency to self-doubt is very human.

Ha, yes! We call it Catholic guilt.

We walk a fine line, between believing we can't be forgiven, called despair, and believing we can be forgiven for anything (in that eat, drink and be merry sort of way), called presumption. Both despair and presumption are considered sins, and so care must be taken to not lean into either. A good thing we find healing in the Sacrament of a Reconciliation.

Abide in Him. That is all we are called to do. Most find that easier said than done.

Edited May 3, 2014 by saemo

[JDave]

Abide in Him. That is all we are called to do. Most find that easier said than done.

Amen!!

[Garden Girl]

 

I also think of a sister in law, who could not get pregnant and at a fast and testimony meeting I went to was crying her eyes out because she believed she was doing something very wrong, therefore, God would not bless her with children. If Spammer's wife has the same thing going for the blessings of a temple marriage, I imagine even the slightest comment or off look can be devastating.

 

I wouldn't even know how to begin to navigate that minefield.

 

As for the peace of Christ, I don't believe in can be found outside of the Eucharist.

 

God bless you.

 

I'm sorry for your sister-in-law's situation... but this is a minefield that she is making unnecessarily... I'm sure she's not doing something very wrong... and even more sure that God is not withholding children from her... I don't believe He operates that way at all... if that were the case, why are all these illegitimate babies being born into the world... many of whom are addicted to drugs at birth... their little bodies shaking with withdrawal symptoms while nurses try and comfort them... no, she is beating herself up for nothing... does she actually believe God is blessing those women with babies that are born into hardship and poverty and not her in her loving, Christ-centered home.

 

As for the peace of Christ... I, too, find great comfort and peace of heart and soul as I partake of the Sacrament every week, and take that time to be in deep prayer and reflection....

 

And blessings on you... GG

Edited May 4, 2014 by Garden Girl

[saemo]

I'm sorry for your sister-in-law's situation... but this is a minefield that she is making unnecessarily... I'm sure she's not doing something very wrong... and even more sure that God is not withholding children from her... I don't believe He operates that way at all... if that were the case, why are all these illegitimate babies being born into the world... many of whom are addicted to drugs at birth... their little bodies shaking with withdrawal symptoms while nurses try and comfort them... no, she is beating herself up for nothing... does she actually believe God is blessing those women with babies that are born into hardship and poverty and not her in her loving, Christ-centered home.

 

As for the peace of Christ... I, too, find great comfort and peace of heart and soul as I partake of the Sacrament every week, and take that time to be in deep prayer and reflection....

 

And blessings on you... GG

She believes what she is taught. That is, God will bless the righteous but not the wicked. Seems to me LDS have a view of God as vending machine. Put the right coinage in and the good things you hope for come out.

 

 

 

I've wanted to point out to her that it rains both on the wicked and the righteous.

[thesometimesaint]

She believes what she is taught. That is, God will bless the righteous but not the wicked. Seems to me LDS have a view of God as vending machine. Put the right coinage in and the good things you hope for come out.

 

 

 

I've wanted to point out to her that it rains both on the wicked and the righteous.

 

That is a gross mischaracterization of LDS belief.

[Calm]

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2008/10/hope-ya-know-we-had-a-hard-time?lang=eng

References "rains on the just and unjust" among other things.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/02/so-how-many-children-do-you-have?lang=eng&query=Childless

Recognises the hardship of being childless in the Church.

Excellent talk, even deals with the perception of childlessness is a sign of unrighteousness.

https://www.lds.org/ensign/1989/02/just-the-two-of-us-for-now?lang=eng&query=Childless

Edited May 4, 2014 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

She believes what she is taught. That is, God will bless the righteous but not the wicked. Seems to me LDS have a view of God as vending machine. Put the right coinage in and the good things you hope for come out. [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969].

 

Some of us do.  Many (I dare say most) of us don't.  Your mileage may vary (your experience in Mormonism was different than mine [as well as that of many/most others] has been.  See here: http://www.greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/10/17/of-doubt-faith-questions-and-choices/.  I have to go.  Perhaps I will comment more later.  I wish you well.

Edited May 4, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Garden Girl]

She believes what she is taught. That is, God will bless the righteous but not the wicked. Seems to me LDS have a view of God as vending machine. Put the right coinage in and the good things you hope for come out.

 

 

 

I've wanted to point out to her that it rains both on the wicked and the righteous.

 

 

That is a gross mischaracterization of LDS belief.

 

Hello saemo...

Your "vending machine" comment on the  LDS view of God is beneath you, and is disappointing... and I agree with TSS... is a gross misrepresentation... 

Particularly since the scriptures are replete with admonitions about the faithful being blessed... both in the OT and NT... for instance...

Deut 28:2-8... "And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God... (and then it lists the numerous blessings to be received "if"...) 

Deut 28:15... "But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee...(and then it lists numerous curses)

Pro 28:20...."A faithful man shall abound with blessings...

Mal. 3:10...."...prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it."

Matt 7:21-29... "Not everyone that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven... (and continuing through vs 29).

Luke 11:28... "But he said, Yea, rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it."

John 15:9-10... "As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you; continue ye in my love... If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."

 

There are numerous parables following these concepts... i.e., sheep and goats... wheat and tares... etc. etc

 

I think we both can agree that we want to abide in the Savior and have the Savior abide in us...  one way to do so is to follow his admonition to hearken unto his words and keep his commandments... and to love the Lord... and our neighbors as ourselves.

 

GG

Edited May 5, 2014 by Garden Girl

[saemo]

...and then there is Job.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. Just an observation that hit me once, long ago in a conversation with an LDS member who agreed. Perhaps I should have framed it as a question rather than a statement.

 

I have to admit LDS teaching on suffering has never made sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Garden Girl]

...and then there is Job.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. Just an observation that hit me once, long ago in a conversation with an LDS member who agreed. Perhaps I should have framed it as a question rather than a statement.

 

I have to admit LDS teaching on suffering has never made sense to me.

 

The LDS teaching on "suffering??"  The LDS teaching is that when we repent the atonement covers any suffering and if we will put our faith and trust in the Lord... every teaching we have is filled with hope and light when we follow the Savior, and rely on his atonement.

 

GG

[thesometimesaint]

...and then there is Job.

 

I'm sorry, I wasn't trying to offend. Just an observation that hit me once, long ago in a conversation with an LDS member who agreed. Perhaps I should have framed it as a question rather than a statement.

 

I have to admit LDS teaching on suffering has never made sense to me.

 

We are not our temptations, trials, difficulties. We are our response to them.

[saemo]

The LDS teaching on "suffering??"  The LDS teaching is that when we repent the atonement covers any suffering and if we will put our faith and trust in the Lord... every teaching we have is filled with hope and light when we follow the Savior, and rely on his atonement.

 

GG

I said suffering, you respond with an answer that I would give to sin. This is what I don't understand, the LDS conflating suffering with sin. It is at the heart of someone sobbing over being childless, believing they must be sinning in some way. If only they could figure out how, and repent.

Edited May 5, 2014 by saemo

[Storm Rider]

I said suffering, you respond with an answer that I would give to sin. This is what I don't understand, the LDS conflating suffering with sin. It is at the heart of someone sobbing over being childless, believing they must be sinning in some way. If only they could figure out how, and repent.

 

When I read you say suffering I thought of opposition in all things. This life is about suffering and still retaining a hope in Christ. Suffering is not the result of sin, bad choices, or good choices; it is a simple fact of life in this mortal existence.  

 

You have a very jaded perspective of the LDS people, the Church of Jesus Christ, and its teachings. You invariably spin them in the worst possible light.  When I used to post on the Catholic forums I met a few people that were very similar.  You remind me of them often.  Regardless, LDS are just as different in their understanding of the gospel as Catholics.  I know you see us as worshiping a different Jesus and even a different God, but I am grateful that I can pray with my Catholic friends here in Qatar just as easily as I can pray with my LDS friends.  More importantly, I am grateful that the God recognizes us for the desires of our heart to love him, to serve his children, and to keep running the good race. 

[saemo]

When I read you say suffering I thought of opposition in all things. This life is about suffering and still retaining a hope in Christ. Suffering is not the result of sin, bad choices, or good choices; it is a simple fact of life in this mortal existence.

You have a very jaded perspective of the LDS people, the Church of Jesus Christ, and its teachings. You invariably spin them in the worst possible light. When I used to post on the Catholic forums I met a few people that were very similar. You remind me of them often. Regardless, LDS are just as different in their understanding of the gospel as Catholics. I know you see us as worshiping a different Jesus and even a different God, but I am grateful that I can pray with my Catholic friends here in Qatar just as easily as I can pray with my LDS friends. More importantly, I am grateful that the God recognizes us for the desires of our heart to love him, to serve his children, and to keep running the good race.

How does one repent of suffering?

If you claim the truth, I should be able to reason out what you are teaching, compare it to any number of beliefs, and comment on the differences. This does not mean I'm jaded or persecuting you. As a Catholic, I certainly see teachings that I view as in direct conflict to the teachings of Christ. Obviously, LDS do not. So I attempt to reason it out, but I admit, I find at times to be more than futile. I am trying to find the rationale.

Perhaps attempting to reason out the teachings being presented by participants at this website is a waste of my time.

Edited May 5, 2014 by saemo

[Garden Girl]

I said suffering, you respond with an answer that I would give to sin. This is what I don't understand, the LDS conflating suffering with sin. It is at the heart of someone sobbing over being childless, believing they must be sinning in some way. If only they could figure out how, and repent.

 

When the Savior was in the Garden, he took upon himself all pain and suffering that we might ever feel... so much so that he bled from every pore... he suffered not only for our sins, but he took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses (Matt 8:17), body and soul.  Christ's whole ministry was about healing... healing the body... healing the spirit.  In my darkest hours, it is only through the Savior that I can find comfort for my soul as I kneel and lay my burdens at his feet, and I feel the sweet comfort fill my heart.  Incidentally... I am childless... I layed that burden at the Savior's feet a long time ago. 

 

GG

[saemo]

When the Savior was in the Garden, he took upon himself all pain and suffering that we might ever feel... so much so that he bled from every pore... he suffered not only for our sins, but he took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses (Matt 8:17), body and soul.  Christ's whole ministry was about healing... healing the body... healing the spirit.  In my darkest hours, it is only through the Savior that I can find comfort for my soul as I kneel and lay my burdens at his feet, and I feel the sweet comfort fill my heart.  Incidentally... I am childless... I layed that burden at the Savior's feet a long time ago. 

 

GG

I'm still walking around this morning wondering how one repents of suffering.

[thesometimesaint]

I'm still walking around this morning wondering how one repents of suffering.

 

We can't. It is our reaction to it that suffering that makes us who we are.

[Garden Girl]

I'm still walking around this morning wondering how one repents of suffering.

 

C'mon saemo... Did anyone say anything about repenting of "suffering?"  No.  Me thinks you are being purposely obtuse.  That's it.

 

GG

[bluebell]

I'm still walking around this morning wondering how one repents of suffering.

 

Who has said that we are supposed to repent of suffering?  I haven't read the whole thread so i must have missed it.

[Calm]

The Atonement covers more than just sin, it involves more on the side of humanity than just repentance. In becoming one with Christ, we accept his yoke by laying our burdens at his feet which involve both our sins and our sufferings. For the latter, we receive peace and comfort and his aid in turning that outside of us which is bad to good; for the former, we receive the opportunity and aid in repenting to remove the barrier we create with sin between us and God.

The Atonement is about reconciling man with God, it is about God helping us to grow up, we will know as we are known, etc.

Edited May 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[3DOP]

Just my opinion, but I think it is a mistake to talk of the LDS teaching on suffering. There is the Catholic teaching and everything else, although certain elements of the Catholic view might be compatible with other Christian approaches to the subject.

 

Our belief in purgatory stems from the idea that there is a distinction to be made between the temporal and eternal punishment for sins. Christ paid all of the eternal punishment. He paid for sins which only God could pay for. But the "results" for sin, in a form of suffering remain. Catholics believe that we have an important decision to make about how to respond to suffering. We can be resigned to these just sufferings and offer them back to God or we can do many things short of that, even becoming angry. I fear I waste a lot of chances to suffer well. I think I need to cultivate the habit of always picturing "bad things" as opportunities. They can be very small, like how your in-law annoys you but you smile and say nothing for Christ's sake. Or for me, being mad at somebody cutting me off and not blowing my air horn and riding their tail. Better yet, be thankful for them for giving me an opportunity to be forgiving, as God is forgiving of my faults and sins. I am a work in progress for sure. It seems to me like unless I learn to offer up the little sufferings well and habitually, I'll probably fail when the big ones start coming.

 

So here is where purgatory comes in too. The sufferings we atone for in this life can shorten our purgatory in the next. This idea adds another layer to the practice of suffering. We can also take upon ourselves "sufferings" that we more or less choose, as opposed to that kidney stone I had last year. This is the purpose of fasting, almsgiving and other kinds of voluntary penances, as we call them. In our own way, we think God also allows us to imitate Christ by offering our sufferings for others, (loved ones, political or religious leaders, Hollywood stars, heh.) besides ourselves. It is considered an act of charity and we are promised that such offerings are pleasing and acceptable to God. In these ways, we hold that there is potentially great, maybe even infinite, value in all suffering, if only we made as good use of it as did our brother Jesus. Some of you may have heard of the three parts of the Catholic Church: The Church Militant, The Church Triumphant, and the Church Suffering representing the kingdom of heaven as manifested on earth, in heaven, and in purgatory (a part of hell, but temporary)

 

I don't think anybody else teaches anything close, whether Mormon or not. I don't know of any Protestants that have anything on the Mormons in this area. Maybe Spammer could say if what I presented seems to parallel anything in Orthodoxy. 

 

This is Social Hall and off topic at that. Otherwise I might defend the position. In this case I think I will just state it for the record.

Edited May 6, 2014 by 3DOP

[saemo]

C'mon saemo... Did anyone say anything about repenting of "suffering?"  No.  Me thinks you are being purposely obtuse.  That's it.

 

GG

You said, The LDS teaching is that when we repent the atonement covers any suffering.

 

I would say, the atonement covers any sin. Atonement and repentance of sins goes together. The atonement is for our sins.

 

After thinking on it I get what you are saying. Though I would think "covers any suffering", "when we repent", means suffering for sins. So there is that. I don't believe someone is childless because of sin.

 

 

Thanks for explaining.