The Dark Side Of The Doctrine Of Eternal Familes

[Spammer]

Hello Spammer...

 

I'm sorry you've lost your faith... even during all of my inactive years (30+). I kept my testimony, at least deep down... so while I can't truly understand how you feel yourself... I can say that I'm thankful for the love and respect you have for your dear wife, and how you're seeking ways to help her and bring her comfort.  To the point of attending with her.  You're a good man and she is fortunate.

My non-LDS husband supported me when I reactivated almost 18 years ago (3 years before he passed away)..  He would never attend Church with me, but did stand beside me in what I wanted to do... So I chose to go ahead and attend Church alone, and though it sorrowed me to always be by myself at church, in the temple, and at social activities... I went, and phooey on those who might gossip about me or pity me, etc etc.  I gathered my faith and went forward because I, like your wife, loved the gospel.  My attitude of facing forward and gathering my faith even at times when I felt very alone helped me immensely... and that attitude must have shone through because I became very accepted and served many callings, including in a RS pres and as a RS teacher... a stake missionary... and a temple ordinance worker...  Please let me encourage your wife to try very hard to ignore those who have been or are so insensitive and uncharitable...  Someone else mentioned that her attitude and behavior could help turn things around, and I agree and encourage her because I was alone.  I did not let that or anyone stop me, and I've been greatly blessed and found peace of heart and mind.  This is my prayer for her... please tell your wife that this sister is praying for her and sending her all good thoughts and wishes...

 

GG

 

Thank you for your kind words and prayers.  If you don't mind, I'd like to share your post with my wife.  

[Buzzard]

Hi Buzzard.  

 

 

I'm an Orthodox Christian and we believe in eternal marriage.  There is no 'til death do us part' in our tradition.  The Eastern Tradition is nearly 2000 years old and it's always been this way.  Marriage is not a requirement for salvation and theosis in our belief; those who are married are still married.  All who never married or whose spouses didn't 'make it' will not need to be married.  Married or not, all who inherit the Kingdom by loving like God loves will dwell in God's presence and will be filled with his Presence, divinized beings who love exactly as God loves: infinitely, indiscriminately, and equally.  

 

Well, good on the Orthodox, then. As far as I can tell, they are the only other Christian denomination that considers marriage to exist after death. You learn something new every day. Although if what I read here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church ) is correct, your definition of eternal marriage is less individual and more communal than the LDS understanding. And it seems that the members, perhaps also like us LDS are trying to figure out exactly what the ramifications of the doctrine are. http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/344095/Re:%20Why%20is%20marriage%20perceived%20

 

 

 

Since I don't believe the LDS church is true, I only made a covenant with my wife.  I am faithful to her, love her, still believe in eternal marriage, and look forward to eternal life with her.  I did not violate any marriage vows nor have I betrayed her in any way.  Love trumps any particular organization's idiosyncratic, unprovable propositions.  I just ceased believing that the LDS church is true. Ten years after that, I ceased lying to other people that I was still a believer.  God is merciful and compassionate and will not forcibly separate us just because one of us believes in unprovable propositions that later might turn out to have been wrong.  

 

Love is the core of the gospel, on that we heartily agree. Although my quick perusal of the Orthodox wiki above would seem to indicate that the Orthodox Church would not even consider you to be in a "mixed marriage", since your spouse is not a believer in the Trinity. But I also don't want to tread too far into the mine field of telling someone else what their religion believes, since others doing that about my faith can get on my nerves.  

 

 

[seed]

Your new church will be full of people that will want to help you.  Tell them you are in need of it, don’t be shy.  I am guessing you already have done so, but if not, do it.  Maybe your wife can fellowship with them sometimes, even as you do with your ward.  Sometimes things make more sense to the spouse; from anyone else other than there partner.

 

Listen (really listen) to each other.

Pray together every night and for each other.   Even if it is awkward.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I might not have much to say that will be deeply felt or help much. But I think some of the issue is that church members might not know how to relate and they are trying to. I know it does not excuse what has been said. I have had to talk to my wife just about the gossip that goes on in our ward when there is nothing really that controversial. So I could only imagine what you might and your wife are going through. You know what might help quite a bit and it would take some real balls to do it. I am not sure I could, but got to testimony meeting and open up about your feelings on what has been going on. You would have to do it in an uber tactful way though. Or another thought is that typically I find that there are 2 or 3 offenders. Confront them directly.

 

If I have an issue with people I just confront them. I have had to do it on occasion and it was really hard. But thing always got better. I am not sure people know the hurt they are causing and I think it is really beneficial that they know.

[Spammer]

 

 

 

Well, good on the Orthodox, then. As far as I can tell, they are the only other Christian denomination that considers marriage to exist after death. You learn something new every day. Although if what I read here ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_the_Eastern_Orthodox_Church ) is correct, your definition of eternal marriage is less individual and more communal than the LDS understanding. And it seems that the members, perhaps also like us LDS are trying to figure out exactly what the ramifications of the doctrine are. http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/344095/Re:%20Why%20is%20marriage%20perceived%20

 

That's a Byzantine Catholic forum.  Byzantine Catholics aren't Orthodox.  They are Eastern Christians (like the Orthodox) who use the Byzantine Rite in their liturgy (like the Orthodox) but who are in communion with the pope of Rome (unlike the Orthodox).  The Orthodox view of marriage derives from our views on the nature of God, priesthood, and the Mysteries (sacraments).  A priest's sacramental actions aren't his own.  His priesthood doesn't give him any independent power or authority to act in God's name as his proxy.  Christ is infinite and eternal and shares in a single divine nature with the Father and the Holy Spirit.  Like the divine nature, his power (or divine energies, which is the divine nature manifested in the material world of time and space and indivisible from that nature) is infinite and eternal and pieces of it can't be broken off and handed out to his priests on earth.  It can descend, surround, penetrate, and be withdrawn, but not subdivided or partitioned.  Thus, priests don't have any priesthood power of their own (this also explains how we view theosis.  There is only one divine nature, indivisible and eternal.  We don't accept the notion of discrete divinities, as in LDS theosis.  Instead, the divinized participate in the one divine nature; they don't acquire a divine nature for themselves). Christ is the sole Melchizedek high priest, he is the only one with power, and he acts through the Orthodox priest. That is the priest's sole function - to be the stand-in or conduit through which Christ invisibly performs his sacramental actions in this world.  It is Christ himself who baptizes, chrismates (confirms), effects the change of the bread and wine through invocation of the Holy Spirit, binds a man and a woman together through marriage, heals with oil, ordains, and absolves from sin through confession.  As it is the eternal Christ himself who performs these actions, they have an eternal character.  They are performed by Christ who dwells beyond time and space in the eternal realm.  What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.  As it is not mere men who perform the binding, it cannot be undone.  That is why the Orthodox view the sacrament of marriage to be eternal in character.  Civil marriages are performed among the Orthodox, but those are not sacramental.  They are not performed by Christ himself.  They are until death do us part.  A man and woman can only receive the sacrament of marriage from a priest, through whom Christ himself acts to bind them together.  

 

 

Love is the core of the gospel, on that we heartily agree. Although my quick perusal of the Orthodox wiki above would seem to indicate that the Orthodox Church would not even consider you to be in a "mixed marriage", since your spouse is not a believer in the Trinity. But I also don't want to tread too far into the mine field of telling someone else what their religion believes, since others doing that about my faith can get on my nerves.  

 

I feel the same about treading on people's beliefs.  It's uncharitable for anyone to assume they know more than people who have those beliefs and apply them to their lives.  The Orthodox Church does view my marriage as valid.  It does not have a sacramental character, however, and is thus not eternal.  My hope that our marriage will be eternal rests on my belief in God's mercy.  It is Christ alone who joins a man and a woman together eternally and even if my wife and sons never join me in Orthodox Church, I still place my hope in Christ that they will be saved in his kingdom and that he will accomplish this binding himself in the next world (that should tell you why the Orthodox do not believe that proxy ordinances for the dead are in principle necessary or even appropriate).  Of course, if they ever do decide to join me in the ancient church in this life, we will receive the sacrament of marriage in an Orthodox church.  

 

Thanks for your thoughts and comments.  I appreciate it. 

 

Edited April 23, 2014 by Spammer

[Spammer]

I might not have much to say that will be deeply felt or help much. But I think some of the issue is that church members might not know how to relate and they are trying to. I know it does not excuse what has been said. I have had to talk to my wife just about the gossip that goes on in our ward when there is nothing really that controversial. So I could only imagine what you might and your wife are going through. You know what might help quite a bit and it would take some real balls to do it. I am not sure I could, but got to testimony meeting and open up about your feelings on what has been going on. You would have to do it in an uber tactful way though. Or another thought is that typically I find that there are 2 or 3 offenders. Confront them directly.

 

If I have an issue with people I just confront them. I have had to do it on occasion and it was really hard. But thing always got better. I am not sure people know the hurt they are causing and I think it is really beneficial that they know.

 

Thanks for the suggestions.  My wife wants to handle this on her own, so I'm respecting her wishes.  

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Thanks for the suggestions.  My wife wants to handle this on her own, so I'm respecting her wishes.  

Well that is fair. One of you 2 should handle it. I hope things get better for you.

[Spammer]

Your new church will be full of people that will want to help you.  Tell them you are in need of it, don’t be shy.  I am guessing you already have done so, but if not, do it.  Maybe your wife can fellowship with them sometimes, even as you do with your ward.  Sometimes things make more sense to the spouse; from anyone else other than there partner.

 

Listen (really listen) to each other.

Pray together every night and for each other.   Even if it is awkward.

 

All of this is good advice.  Thank you.  My wife doesn't like going to church with me and I don't force her or try to make her feel guilty ("well, I go with you...").  Sometimes I can be annoyingly over-enthusiastic when I periodically invite her to come, though.  Praying together is hard.  I no longer pray to Heavenly Father, the exalted man.  I pray to the Holy Trinity and I pray to Jesus, the incarnate second Person.  Given that, there isn't much common ground for prayer, except perhaps the Lord's Prayer.  My priest suggested asking my wife to at least participate with me in that prayer.  I have yet to broach the topic with her.  

Edited April 23, 2014 by Spammer

[Spammer]

Well that is fair. One of you 2 should handle it. I hope things get better for you.

 

Thank you so much.  

[JDave]

All of this is good advice.  Thank you.  My wife doesn't like going to church with me and I don't force her or try to make her feel guilty ("well, I go with you...").  Sometimes I can be annoyingly over-enthusiastic when I periodically invite her to come, though.  Praying together is hard.  I no longer pray to Heavenly Father, the exalted man.  I pray to the Holy Trinity and I pray to Jesus, the incarnate second Person.  Given that, there isn't much common ground for prayer, except perhaps the Lord's Prayer.  My priest suggested asking my wife to at least participate with me in that prayer.  I have yet to broach the topic with her.  

Perhaps you could start the prayers with "Our Father who art in Heaven".  In the end you are addressing God, and your different interpretations of God's characteristics don't have to get in the way.  Obviously easier said than done, because there are emotional hurdles to get over as well.  I hope that you two can come to terms on enough commonalities to feel comfortable communing with God both separately and together.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

My only advice to the OP...no sacrifice is too big for your family. Often times things take a toll on us because we are thinking more of ourselves than them. If necessary walk through hell itself to help them all to grow spiritually...you will never regret it. The only dark side to eternal marriage, is giving up on it...pray, love, laugh, and live in peace.

Edited April 26, 2014 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[thesometimesaint]

There is no dark side of Eternal Marriage. Each of us gets exactly what it is we really want.

[Spammer]

There is no dark side of Eternal Marriage. Each of us gets exactly what it is we really want.

 

Sigh.

[Buzzard]

Spammer said:

"My hope that our marriage will be eternal rests on my belief in God's mercy.  It is Christ alone who joins a man and a woman together eternally and even if my wife and sons never join me in Orthodox Church, I still place my hope in Christ that they will be saved in his kingdom and that he will accomplish this binding himself in the next world (that should tell you why the Orthodox do not believe that proxy ordinances for the dead are in principle necessary or even appropriate).  Of course, if they ever do decide to join me in the ancient church in this life, we will receive the sacrament of marriage in an Orthodox church. "

 

It occurs to me that your lovely spouse probably hopes that even if you do not return to the Restored Gospel in this life, that Christ will be merciful and hold your temple sealing as binding in the next world. Just sayin'

[thesometimesaint]

Sigh.

 

Sigh right back at you, God isn't going to force you to be with someone you really don't want to be with.

[Spammer]

Sigh right back at you, God isn't going to force you to be with someone you really don't want to be with.

It sounds like you're one of those Mormons who doubts whether I really love my wife, the kind of Mormon who makes my wife feel like a piece of crap at church. If so, then maybe I mis-titled the thread. Maybe the darkness isn't in the doctrine; maybe it's really found in the judgmental hearts of certain church members. So, if you do doubt whether I really love my wife, let me ask you. Where does that darkness come from? Does the doctrine predispose you to be that way or is it just your nature?

Edited April 29, 2014 by Spammer

[Spammer]

Spammer said:

"My hope that our marriage will be eternal rests on my belief in God's mercy.  It is Christ alone who joins a man and a woman together eternally and even if my wife and sons never join me in Orthodox Church, I still place my hope in Christ that they will be saved in his kingdom and that he will accomplish this binding himself in the next world (that should tell you why the Orthodox do not believe that proxy ordinances for the dead are in principle necessary or even appropriate).  Of course, if they ever do decide to join me in the ancient church in this life, we will receive the sacrament of marriage in an Orthodox church. "

 

It occurs to me that your lovely spouse probably hopes that even if you do not return to the Restored Gospel in this life, that Christ will be merciful and hold your temple sealing as binding in the next world. Just sayin'

 

Yes, I know she does hope for that, as do I.  We believe the same thing about Christ's mercy.  Thanks for your kind words about my wife.

[Storm Rider]

I'll try to keep this very brief. My wife and I married in the SLC temple. I left the church in spirit a few years later and left it officially ten years after that. The interim for me was spent in atheism, rearing our kids, regular church attendance with the family, and simultaneous maintenance of the illusion that I was a believer - put another way, I lied to church leaders, members, and my own children about what I really believed. I accepted church callings, took part in church charitable works, and helped my wife teach the kids things I did not believe. The years of duplicity took its toll on me and culminated into a gradual, sure fall into extreme anger and bitterness. I only began climbing out of that pit after turning back to Christ and being baptized into a different church. I went public with this information and everything changed for my wife. Although I had begun to heal, my decision to go public with my apostasy and quit lying deeply wounded her and disrupted the family harmony. I admit my culpability. She didn't bargain on a temple marriage that would culminate in a part-member reality. But she also didn't bargain on encountering the dark side of teachings about eternal families.

 

The doctrine is beautiful, but the negative spiritual and, especially, social implications for families where one spouse falls away are stark. It's bad enough for my poor wife to know that in the eyes of the church we're no longer married eternally. What's worse (for her) is the overnight change in how she is treated by church members when my apostasy becomes general knowledge in the ward. We have lived in four wards since I left the church (including the ward we were in when I did the dirty deed), and the result is always the same. In every ward, the members are genuinely friendly, open, and caring towards me, until they find out why I won't be giving any talks or accepting any church callings or attending elder's quorum. People are still nice, but the nature of our interactions are changed. Awkwardness and discomfort permeates everything. Gradually, people begin to keep their distance. It's my fault, since I don't participate in any meetings or activities at all except for the occasional sacrament mtg and gospel doctrine, and only when my wife is there with me. Personally, I'm fine with people avoiding me like the plague. I don't care. But it really bothers me when my wife is suddenly treated very differently, just because members, especially the relief society sisters, find out about me. That's when the dark side of mormon teachings about eternal families begins to show itself. The sister missionaries never, ever visit us - until people find out about me. That's when they take a sudden interest in my wife. In every ward, when the truth is known, several sisters ask my wife such things as "Doesn't your husband love you anymore?" "How can he do that?" "Do you think he had/is having an affair?" "Doesn't he want to be married to you forever?" This happens in every single ward and it kills her. She thinks, no matter how well-meaning, she's talked about behind her back. I heard church members talking about apostates and their families all of my life, all 40+ years of my active church attendance, so I'm sure she's not wrong. The fact that missionaries suddenly start showing up at our home just adds to my wife's sense that our family is a "project" for the ward. All my wife wants is to be treated exactly like every other sister in the ward is treated. But it's my belief that the gossip results from the insidious (to me) belief that she will only be married to me in the highest level of the celestial kingdom if I repent, am rebaptized, and return to my family priesthood duties as husband and father. This is something I will never do. That means at death our marriage will be sundered and my wife will be given to another man, if she has hopes to be exalted. In my mind, that easily explains the pity party always shown to my wife, and the vicious gossip about me and my alleged infidelities and/or lack of love for her, when people find out about me. It also explains why hearing mention of eternal families at church (which is every single week) makes her very sad.

 

All of this is complicated by my older son's refusal to attend church anymore. He's 15, very smart and a 4.0 honors student, and of an age to make up his own mind about what he believes about spiritual matters. I don't deny my influence on him, though it is never intended to destroy his belief in the church (despite what some of my family members have told me). I've encouraged him to read the Book of Mormon for himself and pray. He says no thanks. The ward gossip my wife hears about me, and her reasonable conviction that she's a project, means that she has no desire to go to church with only part of her family and stick out like a sore thumb. It understandably makes her sad. The commentary and looks she gets infuriates her. So she's simultaneously sad and angry on Sundays. It also understandably makes her fear having to sit there knowing what people are thinking about me and taking pity on her. So it's a battle every Sunday to get the entire family to church with my wife. Sundays pretty much suck in our house. My poor wife. It's not enough that I'm there with her at church. She's treated completely differently now that I'm out of the closet about my beliefs. The fact that I'm no longer a member is seemingly more important to church members than the fact that I'm a Christian man who loves my family with all my heart.

 

IMO, all of this negativity that my wife experiences - the gossip about me, the pity, the project - is directly caused by the belief that salvation in the highest heaven requires an eternal marriage. It's my belief that no matter how wonderful and beautiful the idea of eternal families is, the doctrine can ruin part-member families like mine through the negative influence and behavior of church members who, no matter how well meaning, manifest pity, make families like mine a project, and gossip about those like me who leave the church. It's my belief that church members can't help it. The church is true. Joseph Smith is a prophet. People like me never have a good reason to leave and violate my temple covenants. I get it. I do support my wife's participation in church but it's obvious to me that she's being slowly pushed away by the behavior of church members. I see it happening. If she wasn't so obviously unhappy about it, it would make me very happy for church members to push her away and have the chance that she will one day join me and leave the church. But I'm not happy at all because she loves going to church and she's so unhappy at feeling like a fish out of water at church. My poor wife. This is the dark side of Mormon teaching. Teachings about eternal families are only good and healthy for families where both spouses are active, believing members.  Maybe someone in this forum has connections on high and can say something or share my experience. This needs to be a conference talk, to put an end to this kind of shaming and gossip. It can be Part 2 to Uchtdorf's effort to put an end to speculation about why people leave the church.

Sorry, that wasn't very brief.

 

This is an unfortunate reaction when the sacred ordinance of marriage is violated by either party. It is not unique within the Church of Jesus Christ, but is found in all churches where marriage is considered a rite or ordinance. 

 

It may be helpful for you to talk to your wife's bishop. Explain the pain you experience because of the unhappiness of your wife. Be frank, you are not there under any attempt on your part or the Church's to get you return to the Church. You are there out of your love and concern as a disciple of Christ to support your wife.  

 

Part-member families will always be "projects" in the Church. One of our objectives is to unite the children with their parents and vice-versa.  It will never stop and the change needs to occur between the two of you.  She needs to accept and understand that your path is within the Orthodox Church. You made this choice because you could not do otherwise; in effect, you have followed the Spirit and you are doing your best to serve God.  Yes, this conflicts with her beliefs, but she also needs to put her faith completely in our Father in Heaven's hands and let him be the judge.

 

She is called to be a disciple of Christ and she needs to have faith that she is doing her best to serve God and others as well as you are. As disciples of Christ we must learn to forgive the shortcomings and sins of others.  When members ask she needs to respond directly and promptly in a way that demonstrates her love for you and her complete support and acceptance for your choice. She should also share her faith that she knows God will work it out and that all will be well because of God's mercy and understanding. 

 

It is not an easy path, but with honest answers when asked and with a strong commitment to follow Christ you both will know you are doing your best.  

[Spammer]

This is an unfortunate reaction when the sacred ordinance of marriage is violated by either party. It is not unique within the Church of Jesus Christ, but is found in all churches where marriage is considered a rite or ordinance. 

 

It may be helpful for you to talk to your wife's bishop. Explain the pain you experience because of the unhappiness of your wife. Be frank, you are not there under any attempt on your part or the Church's to get you return to the Church. You are there out of your love and concern as a disciple of Christ to support your wife.  

 

Part-member families will always be "projects" in the Church. One of our objectives is to unite the children with their parents and vice-versa.  It will never stop and the change needs to occur between the two of you.  She needs to accept and understand that your path is within the Orthodox Church. You made this choice because you could not do otherwise; in effect, you have followed the Spirit and you are doing your best to serve God.  Yes, this conflicts with her beliefs, but she also needs to put her faith completely in our Father in Heaven's hands and let him be the judge.

 

She is called to be a disciple of Christ and she needs to have faith that she is doing her best to serve God and others as well as you are. As disciples of Christ we must learn to forgive the shortcomings and sins of others.  When members ask she needs to respond directly and promptly in a way that demonstrates her love for you and her complete support and acceptance for your choice. She should also share her faith that she knows God will work it out and that all will be well because of God's mercy and understanding. 

 

It is not an easy path, but with honest answers when asked and with a strong commitment to follow Christ you both will know you are doing your best.  

 

Stormrider, thank you.  I agree with everything you said, well except for the implication that ceasing to believe in Joseph Smith and following my heart equates to a violation of my marriage covenants with my wife.  Since I don't believe in the church's claims, there was no eternal sealing power in operation in the first place, there was no eternal covenant to break.  For me, a temple marriage is just a civil marriage in a really nice building, in my case the SLC temple.  But I do understand Mormons believe with all their hearts that this sealing power exists and I understand why they would think I've violated my vows to my wife.  It's a very hard thing when one partner in an LDS marriage ceases to believe.  As you say, honest answers and a strong commitment to follow Christ is the only way.   

Edited April 29, 2014 by Spammer

[thesometimesaint]

It sounds like you're one of those Mormons who doubts whether I really love my wife, the kind of Mormon who makes my wife feel like a piece of crap at church. If so, then maybe I mis-titled the thread. Maybe the darkness isn't in the doctrine; maybe it's really found in the judgmental hearts of certain church members. So, if you do doubt whether I really love my wife, let me ask you. Where does that darkness come from? Does the doctrine predispose you to be that way or is it just your nature?

 

I neither doubt you love your wife nor your wife loves you. However there are consequences of everything we do. I'm sure you will happiest in whatever Kingdom of Glory you find yourself in. You are apparently happiest in your new religion. God isn't going to put you anywhere you won't be happiest. There are certain requirements for each Kingdom as well as certain blessings attached to that Kingdom. Be happy in your decision is all I am saying.

 

 The doctrine is what it is. I'm a convert.

[Spammer]

I neither doubt you love your wife nor your wife loves you. However there are consequences of everything we do. I'm sure you will happiest in whatever Kingdom of Glory you find yourself in. You are apparently happiest in your new religion. God isn't going to put you anywhere you won't be happiest. There are certain requirements for each Kingdom as well as certain blessings attached to that Kingdom. Be happy in your decision is all I am saying.

 

 The doctrine is what it is. I'm a convert.

 Ok, I understand.  I'm sorry if was uncharitable.  I do understand the doctrine.  I'm descended from five generations of Mormons and was born into the church.  Mission, temple marriage, etc.  I simply no longer believe in Joseph Smith and regret telling people on my mission there was a Great Apostasy.  Given what I know, I was unhappy and had to do something about it. But, hey!, if it makes folks happy, more power to them.   It just really bothers me to hear Mormons say the things they say, as if God really will split us up just because my wife and I happen to believe in differing, unprovable propositions.  A loving God will condemn no one based on their belief in something that can't be proven.  If it later turns out that God does condemn me to a lower kingdom just because my brain and heart mistakenly tells me there was no Apostasy, then that's fine.  I wouldn't want to be near the callous jerk anyway.  Fortunately, that's not the kind of God I believe in.  Neither does my wife.  The God I believe in was described by St. Anthony the Great (born 3rd century), the father of monasticism:

 

"God is good, without passions and unchangeable. One who understands that it is sound and true to affirm that God does not change might very well ask: `how, then, is it possible to speak of God as rejoicing over those who are good, becoming merciful to those who know Him and, on the other hand, shunning the wicked and being angry with sinners.' We must reply to this, that God neither rejoices nor grows angry, because to rejoice and to be angered are passions. Nor is God won over by gifts from those who know Him, for that would mean that He is moved by pleasure. It is not possible for the Godhead to have the sensation of pleasure or displeasure from the condition of humans, God is good, and He bestows only blessings, and never causes harm, but remains always the same. If we humans, however, remain good by means of resembling Him, we are united to Him, but if we become evil by losing our resemblance to God, we are separated from Him. By living in a holy manner, we unite ourselves to God; by becoming evil, however, we become at enmity with Him. It is not that He arbitrarily becomes angry with us, but that our sins prevent God from shining within us, and expose us to the demons who make us suffer. If through prayer and acts of compassionate love, we gain freedom from our sins, this does not mean that we have won God over and made Him change, but rather that by means of our actions and turning to God, we have been healed of our wickedness, and returned to the enjoyment of God's goodness. To say that God turns away from the sinful is like saying that the sun hides itself from the blind."

 

Repenting from sin and living in a holy manner is what matters.  Given my belief, I have great hope that my wife and I will be able to dwell in God's presence together, whether she becomes Orthodox or not.  The God I worship is compassionate and merciful, the Father of the Prodigal Son. There is no hell or kingdoms or separate locations assigned to the wicked or the good who didn't choose Christ.  There's just us and God and God will still accept us, even if we don't choose Him until the next life.  The only ones who will be eternally damned are those who eternally damn themselves by choosing eternally to be separate from God by continuing to put themselves and what they want first in their lives. Yes, that is the dominant belief within Orthodoxy and that is what I believe.  We believe there is hope for all, Orthodox or not.  I personally find the idea of separate kingdoms or domains with no possible progression between them to be repugnant.  It violates the love of the God who wants all to be saved and is infinitely patient and merciful.  Heaven and hell are states of being, not locations.  After death, all will be brought brought into the blinding presence of the infinitely holy and good God.  Divine love will be experienced as heaven or hell depending on the condition of the soul.  Those who are still self-centered and egotistical will seek to get as far away from the source of their pain as they possibly can.  For the holy, it will be experienced as joy and bliss.  Even though there aren't separate kingdoms, there are degrees of glory, as many degrees as there are individuals with varying degrees of cleansing from ego and self-interest.  Take a look at C.S. Lewis's book The Great Divorce for a fictional description of the ancient view of heaven and hell.  This is exactly what that book describes.  

 

If all will are likely to be saved anyway, why didn't I just stay Mormon?  Well, since I don't believe there was a Great Apostasy and thus reject the need for a Restoration, the LDS church has nothing to aid me in my spiritual journey and I need a lot of help.  As the Body of Christ, the ancient orthodox catholic church is where the fullness of the Christian faith is found and the only place where Christ the Physician gives himself to us in the sacraments to heal us so we can prepare ourselves for so we can develop in holiness in this life and prepare for that inevitable meeting with the divine in the next life.  That doesn't mean those out of the Church won't be healed.  We don't know anything about that.  That's up to God.  All we know is that the Church is the only place to go to obtain that healing in this life.  Those who don't belong can't avail themselves of the divine graces imparted through the sacraments and are thus missing out on the one thing needful to help them in their journey - Christ Himself coming to you to unite Himself with you in this life.  Those outside the Church are left to work out their salvation with Christ working on them externally only, just like good people everywhere before His Incarnation.  Since the Incarnation, he makes Himself available to us more intimately so He can work on us internally, transforming us from within, by directly uniting Himself to us in the core of our beings.  This kind of blessed intimacy is only possible under the new covenant in Christ's church.  Since I don't believe there was a Great Apostasy, why would I refrain from uniting myself with Christ in this life through the sacraments, even if it means I'm no longer considered to be married eternally in the eyes of the LDS church?

Edited April 29, 2014 by Spammer

[Storm Rider]

Stormrider, thank you.  I agree with everything you said, well except for the implication that ceasing to believe in Joseph Smith and following my heart equates to a violation of my marriage covenants with my wife.  Since I don't believe in the church's claims, there was no eternal sealing power in operation in the first place, there was no eternal covenant to break.  For me, a temple marriage is just a civil marriage in a really nice building, in my case the SLC temple.  But I do understand Mormons believe with all their hearts that this sealing power exists and I understand why they would think I've violated my vows to my wife.  It's a very hard thing when one partner in an LDS marriage ceases to believe.  As you say, honest answers and a strong commitment to follow Christ is the only way.   

 

I think those vows we make in the temple come on several levels; between each individual and God, between each individual and their mate, and between each individual and the body of Christ.  Joseph Smith plays no role in any of those covenants. Please understand that there is no judgment associated with the statement that you (or me or anyone else) broke some of those covenants. I just think we all brake those covenants in varying degrees. The fact that you are like the rest of us does not make you bad or evil; it just means you broke those covenants on some levels and kept them on others.

 

I met a fellow that I admired a great deal. He had converted to the Catholic Church. We used to have great talks. In his heart he still misses the comfort he found within the Church of Jesus Christ, but he also knew that he was where he needed to be. It was a catch-22 and he was just striving to do his best. I supported him in his desire to follow the Spirit and to do his best.  

 

As you know, being a Latter-day Saint is more than membership in a church, it is an entire culture and way of life. It is hard when one spouse leaves the Church/culture and moves on necessarily leaving the other spouse behind. The cultural issues are far more difficult to deal with than the religious.  

 

A spiritually blended marriage can work, but it takes more effort and a higher degree of honesty and openness than otherwise. I wish that we humans were not so hardheaded, rude, impolite, thoughtless, crass, jerks; unfortunately, that is who we are.  Both of you need to overlook the stupidity of others and focus on what you both are committed; living as true disciples of Christ. In doing so, you become a wonderful example to others and others will be attracted to the light you both reflect to the world. 

 

You are a good man. We each have a cross to carry. Gratefully, He is with us and lightens the load through his unending grace. Our challenge is remain open to Light and Grace.  God bless you.

[Spammer]

I think those vows we make in the temple come on several levels; between each individual and God, between each individual and their mate, and between each individual and the body of Christ.  Joseph Smith plays no role in any of those covenants. Please understand that there is no judgment associated with the statement that you (or me or anyone else) broke some of those covenants. I just think we all brake those covenants in varying degrees. The fact that you are like the rest of us does not make you bad or evil; it just means you broke those covenants on some levels and kept them on others.

 

I met a fellow that I admired a great deal. He had converted to the Catholic Church. We used to have great talks. In his heart he still misses the comfort he found within the Church of Jesus Christ, but he also knew that he was where he needed to be. It was a catch-22 and he was just striving to do his best. I supported him in his desire to follow the Spirit and to do his best.  

 

As you know, being a Latter-day Saint is more than membership in a church, it is an entire culture and way of life. It is hard when one spouse leaves the Church/culture and moves on necessarily leaving the other spouse behind. The cultural issues are far more difficult to deal with than the religious.  

 

Yes, that's one thing the LDS has church has over every other church out there (in my experience).  The community is tight, close-knit, supportive, and independent.  Mormons really look out for each other.  It's an amazing thing.  Those positives can sometimes become negatives, though, under certain circumstances and for some individuals.  I do miss the community, though not at the cost of compromising my beliefs and personal integrity.  It really can be a catch-22 for those who leave.  

 

A spiritually blended marriage can work, but it takes more effort and a higher degree of honesty and openness than otherwise. I wish that we humans were not so hardheaded, rude, impolite, thoughtless, crass, jerks; unfortunately, that is who we are.  Both of you need to overlook the stupidity of others and focus on what you both are committed; living as true disciples of Christ. In doing so, you become a wonderful example to others and others will be attracted to the light you both reflect to the world. 

 

You are a good man. We each have a cross to carry. Gratefully, He is with us and lightens the load through his unending grace. Our challenge is remain open to Light and Grace.  God bless you.

 

Thanks.  I really appreciate the good advice.  God bless you, too.  

[Garden Girl]

. I do support my wife's participation in church but it's obvious to me that she's being slowly pushed away by the behavior of church members. I see it happening. If she wasn't so obviously unhappy about it, it would make me very happy for church members to push her away and have the chance that she will one day join me and leave the church. But I'm not happy at all because she loves going to church and she's so unhappy at feeling like a fish out of water at church. My poor wife. This is the dark side of Mormon teaching. Teachings about eternal families are only good and healthy for families where both spouses are active, believing members. 

 

Hello Spammer...

I've posted earlier here and expressed my hope that your wife can overcome some of these feelings of being "a fish out of water" etc... You know that I was married to a non-LDS man for 3 years before he passed away... in that time he didn't attend Church with me once, though he did support me in other ways... I never allowed myself to feel different or "less than" any of the sisters who had active husbands... I held my head high... was open and friendly... was very active, even though alone... participated in discussions, expressing my opinions (and am I opinionated!).  Because of my attitude, if the sisters gossiped about me I was never aware of it, nor did I care.  In fact, I can't tell you how many sisters came up to me, then and through the years, and said what an "example" I was to them, etc.  So my feeling is that this unhappiness she feels is deeper than it needs to be (please don't take this wrong... I can see from what you've said there's obviously a problem) but if she could just stand steady, look everyone in the eye, walk tall physically and emotionally, and quit feeling like there's something wrong with her like being out of place...  if it were me and I overheard or knew of a sister making remarks etc I'd put that sister in her place in nothing flat! Privately of course.  Her body language, her voice, her  demeanor can go a long way in alleviating this situation... I do hope she can take some of this to heart because I know what it was and is like to be alone... the rapport I have with my ward sisters tells me that there's no one who doesn't wish me well, alone or not... 

 

As for you Spammer, you're a good man no doubt about it... but you have written some long posts here in the Social forum expressing in a very positive, matter of fact way your beliefs as if they are true and factual... and they are to you, but while I can respect and honor your views, I certainly do not agree with all of the things you've written though we do share some common ground, yet this is not the place for debate... such posts as yours would be better in the Gospel Discussions forum so that if someone wanted to respond to a particular view they could... I say this with all good will... and wish only the best for both you and your wife... just wish I could help her in some way...

 

from the beach on another warm day (89 yesterday, 80 today) here on the central Oregon coast.  We usually don't make it out of the 60's...

 

GG

Edited May 2, 2014 by Garden Girl

[saemo]

Garden Girl, There is a difference in being married to a never-Mormon, as compared to an Apostate. There is heavy cultural baggage. Gossiping. Assumptions. Most of it never good.

Spammer, I am married to an atheist. I take comfort in the teachings of St. Paul, who said (paraphrasing) the unbelieving spouse is made holy by the believing spouse. Not words to be taken lightly. Assure your wife at all times and work towards bringing her the peace of Christ.

Peace be with you.

Edited May 2, 2014 by saemo