Evolution: Your Inner Fish

[BCSpace]

To correspond with the Cosmos thread here...

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63085-cosmos-are-you-watching/

 

...I thought one might also be interested in the 'Your Inner Fish' Series.  It's quite good.  Evolution, Fossils, Embryos, Genetics, and yes, even Sonic Hedgehog (very important, you'll just have to watch).  Try episode one:

 

http://www.pbs.org/your-inner-fish/watch/

 

I think most people will come away with a much better sense of what Evolution is and the science behind it. Have not detected any anti-religion/anti-Christian sentiment so far.  My own belief in God is strengthened by seeing how His intricate creation works, is put together, and made.

[thesometimesaint]

To correspond with the Cosmos thread here...

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63085-cosmos-are-you-watching/

 

...I thought one might also be interested in the 'Your Inner Fish' Series.  It's quite good.  Evolution, Fossils, Embryos, Genetics, and yes, even Sonic Hedgehog (very important, you'll just have to watch).  Try episode one:

 

http://www.pbs.org/your-inner-fish/watch/

 

I think most people will come away with a much better sense of what Evolution is and the science behind it. Have not detected any anti-religion/anti-Christian sentiment so far.  My own belief in God is strengthened by seeing how His intricate creation works, is put together, and made.

 

[Rob Osborn]

To correspond with the Cosmos thread here...

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63085-cosmos-are-you-watching/

 

...I thought one might also be interested in the 'Your Inner Fish' Series.  It's quite good.  Evolution, Fossils, Embryos, Genetics, and yes, even Sonic Hedgehog (very important, you'll just have to watch).  Try episode one:

 

http://www.pbs.org/your-inner-fish/watch/

 

I think most people will come away with a much better sense of what Evolution is and the science behind it. Have not detected any anti-religion/anti-Christian sentiment so far.  My own belief in God is strengthened by seeing how His intricate creation works, is put together, and made.

As soon as they showed the fish walking out of the ocean onto land I laughed, stopped the video and did something better with my time. Sad that they go to such great measures to make educational fairy tales.

[BCSpace]

As soon as they showed the fish walking out of the ocean onto land I laughed, stopped the video and did something better with my time. Sad that they go to such great measures to make educational fairy tales.

 

 

That means you missed out on the explanation of bone and embryo development that shows how some fish developed that way. Plus you missed the discovery of the molecular signal that tells which cells to develop into what type of body part and to what extent.  You also missed how scientists can now manipulate that molecule to create interesting effects.  And if they can do it, God can do it, either directly or indirectly via natural selection.

 

That fact remains that there is nothing about Evolution that precludes the existence of God or the fact that we are created in His image.

[Rob Osborn]

That means you missed out on the explanation of bone and embryo development that shows how some fish developed that way. Plus you missed the discovery of the molecular signal that tells which cells to develop into what type of body part and to what extent.  You also missed how scientists can now manipulate that molecule to create interesting effects.  And if they can do it, God can do it, either directly or indirectly via natural selection.

 

That fact remains that there is nothing about Evolution that precludes the existence of God or the fact that we are created in His image.

Except for the fact that we are created in Gods image, not a fish. As such, we also have the very seed of God within us being of divine lineage. Then you have the fact that all animals were created and placed into a state of no death and then all life became mortal some 6,000 years ago. Then of course- you have the flood that destroyed all life on earth and made the geologic column.

[BCSpace]

Except for the fact that we are created in Gods image, not a fish.

 

No one is claiming otherwise. There is no doctrinal problem with a genetic line of physical bodies going through a fish stage.  The end result is homo sapiens (and the whole variety of desired animal diversity), exactly what God wanted because God Himself is a Homo Sapiens.

 

Using your logic, one could say against Creationism that we are not created in the half-formed image of a lump of clay.

Edited April 14, 2014 by BCSpace

[Rob Osborn]

Hum...Pretty sure the scriptures say that God created man after his own image and that Adam was the literal son of God. Not sure how one could put "fish" in their lineage?

[The Nehor]

Hum...Pretty sure the scriptures say that God created man after his own image and that Adam was the literal son of God. Not sure how one could put "fish" in their lineage?

 

Secret LDS Doctrine

 

God also sometimes appears in the form of Leviathan:

 

[Freedom]

What does me being in the image of god have to do with an ancient ancestor from 1,000,000 years ago? This is like arguing I cannot be a mormon because my grandfather was not a mormon. 

[thesometimesaint]

Hum...Pretty sure the scriptures say that God created man after his own image and that Adam was the literal son of God. Not sure how one could put "fish" in their lineage?

 

It does. It doesn't say how he did it.

[BCSpace]

and that Adam was the literal son of God

 

Nope.  Not in the flesh. The JST corrects Luke to say that Adam was formed of God and not a son of as is the rest of the genealogy. Luke 3:38 footnote c.

[Gray]

Hum...Pretty sure the scriptures say that God created man after his own image and that Adam was the literal son of God. Not sure how one could put "fish" in their lineage?

 

The scriptures don't make that claim

[thesometimesaint]

The scriptures don't make that claim

 

God took a pile of dust, breathed into it and thus made man. At least according to Scripture. How to get life from dust is another question.

[The Nehor]

God took a pile of dust, breathed into it and thus made man. At least according to Scripture. How to get life from dust is another question.

Voodoo.

[thesometimesaint]

Voodoo.

 

I've heard that. Though not in this Church.

Edited April 14, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Gray]

God took a pile of dust, breathed into it and thus made man. At least according to Scripture. How to get life from dust is another question.

 

Indeed

[halconero]

I always thought the scriptural creation account as indicative of a water-based origin of all life. The phrase "after their kind" also coincides with our understanding of the Biological Species Concept.

 

 20 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.

 21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

[BCSpace]

The phrase "after their kind" also coincides with our understanding of the Biological Species Concept.

 

 

Yes, this seems to be one of the most difficult concepts for a Creationist to understand, that Evolution teaches like produces like and everything after it's own kind. Even Russel M. Nelson didn't understand it as illustrated by his Pew research comments when he said in erroneous criticism of Evolution:

 

"Man has always been man. Dogs have always been dogs. Monkeys have always been monkeys. It’s just the way genetics works."

 

How this can be in Evolution is illustrated at about the 5:55 mark in the link in my siggy.

[thesometimesaint]

I always thought the scriptural creation account as indicative of a water-based origin of all life. The phrase "after their kind" also coincides with our understanding of the Biological Species Concept.

 

 20 And the Gods said: Let us prepare the waters to bring forth abundantly the moving creatures that have life; and the fowl, that they may fly above the earth in the open expanse of heaven.

 21 And the Gods prepared the waters that they might bring forth great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters were to bring forth abundantly after their kind; and every winged fowl after their kind. And the Gods saw that they would be obeyed, and that their plan was good.

 

There is no biological species concept of "kind". That is totally a religious concept. OTOH It does appear that life as we know it originated in water. Though I think some on this board may disagree.

[halconero]

There is no biological species concept of "kind". That is totally a religious concept. OTOH It does appear that life as we know it originated in water. Though I think some on this board may disagree.

 

You misunderstand what I'm trying to say. The religious concept that states that species produce after their own kind does not do damage to the scientific Biological Species Concept, which states that organisms can only reproduce within their own species.

[thesometimesaint]

You misunderstand what I'm trying to say. The religious concept that states that species produce after their own kind does not do damage to the scientific Biological Species Concept, which states that organisms can only reproduce within their own species.

 

I still don't understand. Speciation is where a descendent generation is unable to reproduce with its parent generation. Kind is an unspecific grouping of superficial likenesses. IE; Bee's, Birds, and Bats are all kinds of flying animals, but they are all separate species. Our Scriptures have Bats as Birds.

 

Leviticus 11:13-19

New International Version (NIV)

¹³ “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,^[a] the vulture, the black vulture, ¹⁴ the red kite, any kind of black kite, ¹⁵ any kind of raven, ¹⁶ the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, ¹⁷ the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, ¹⁸ the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, ¹⁹ the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

[Teancum]

That means you missed out on the explanation of bone and embryo development that shows how some fish developed that way. Plus you missed the discovery of the molecular signal that tells which cells to develop into what type of body part and to what extent.  You also missed how scientists can now manipulate that molecule to create interesting effects.  And if they can do it, God can do it, either directly or indirectly via natural selection.

 

That fact remains that there is nothing about Evolution that precludes the existence of God or the fact that we are created in His image.

 

 

I read the book and really enjoyed it.  Sure evolution does not prove there is no God. Who said it did?  But evolution does not need God to work and could go in any given direction in another world.  Also, why would an omnipotent being use such a lengthy and combersome process?

[halconero]

I still don't understand. Speciation is where a descendent generation is unable to reproduce with its parent generation. Kind is an unspecific grouping of superficial likenesses. IE; Bee's, Birds, and Bats are all kinds of flying animals, but they are all separate species. Our Scriptures have Bats as Birds.

 

Leviticus 11:13-19

New International Version (NIV)

¹³ “‘These are the birds you are to regard as unclean and not eat because they are unclean: the eagle,^[a] the vulture, the black vulture, ¹⁴ the red kite, any kind of black kite, ¹⁵ any kind of raven, ¹⁶ the horned owl, the screech owl, the gull, any kind of hawk, ¹⁷ the little owl, the cormorant, the great owl, ¹⁸ the white owl, the desert owl, the osprey, ¹⁹ the stork, any kind of heron, the hoopoe and the bat.

 

"Kind" as used in the Creation accounts and the Temple presentations indicates one species reproducing after its own kind. Furthermore, speciation is not really a generation to generation thing. It happens over several generations along a continuum.

[thesometimesaint]

I read the book and really enjoyed it.  Sure evolution does not prove there is no God. Who said it did?  But evolution does not need God to work and could go in any given direction in another world.  Also, why would an omnipotent being use such a lengthy and combersome process?

 

I've never said that evolution proves or disproves God.

 

What is a few billion years to eternal beings?

 

[halconero]

I read the book and really enjoyed it.  Sure evolution does not prove there is no God. Who said it did?  But evolution does not need God to work and could go in any given direction in another world.  Also, why would an omnipotent being use such a lengthy and combersome process?

 

Omnipotent being in traditional Christianity =/= Omnipotent being in Latter-day Saint theology. God in Latter-day Saint thought is bound by the natural laws of physics, biology, chemistry and the like. If it turns out that evolution is the process whereby Homo sapien sapien came to be then it means that God was bound to operate within the laws of natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, etc.