Evolution: Your Inner Fish

[thesometimesaint]

"Kind" as used in the Creation accounts and the Temple presentations indicates one species reproducing after its own kind. Furthermore, speciation is not really a generation to generation thing. It happens over several generations along a continuum.

 

Neither accounts nor the Temple presentations are scientific presentations. They are allegorical morality plays to tell a different story. Speciation is a generation to generation thing. Genetic mutations accumulate until reproduction is no longer possible. The actual speciation event can occur suddenly as in the case of a horse and donkey to create a mule. or over long periods of time as in Apes to Humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

[thesometimesaint]

Omnipotent being in traditional Christianity =/= Omnipotent being in Latter-day Saint theology. God in Latter-day Saint thought is bound by the natural laws of physics, biology, chemistry and the like. If it turns out that evolution is the process whereby Homo sapien sapien came to be then it means that God was bound to operate within the laws of natural selection, genetic drift, gene flow, etc.

 

The problem is where this God being bound by natural laws then does something that violates those laws. IE: Taking dust blowing on it and creating man, the sun stopping its movement, and floating axeheads, going on top of a mountain and seeing the whole earth. etc., etc., etc.. I'm fine with miracles but lets not call it science.

[halconero]

Neither accounts nor the Temple presentations are scientific presentations. They are allegorical morality plays to tell a different story. Speciation is a generation to generation thing. Genetic mutations accumulate until reproduction is no longer possible. The actual speciation event can occur suddenly as in the case of a horse and donkey to create a mule. or over long periods of time as in Apes to Humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation

 

Sigh

 

I know. I'm not saying they are.

 

Furthermore, I know speciation quite well...I study just about every day, considering that its an intrinsic part of my major (Biological Anthropology). The creation of a mule is not a speciation event, it is the result of one. Speciation refers to the trans-generation process whereby Donkeys and Horses could no longer produce fertile offspring, not breeding a mule. Generation-to-generation speciation occurs in only extremely rare instances.

[halconero]

The problem is where this God being bound by natural laws then does something that violates those laws. IE: Taking dust blowing on it and creating man, the sun stopping its movement, and floating axeheads, going on top of a mountain and seeing the whole earth. etc., etc., etc.. I'm fine with miracles but lets not call it science.

 

1) Who was it that just told me that the whole dust blowing, man creation thing was allegorical?

 

2) Who says that miracles could not be explained through scientific means? Maybe God caused the axe to float by influence its chemical density, or that the Spirit somehow influences electrical patterns in the brain to enable someone to enter a visionary state. I have no clue. What I do know is that even miracles work within a framework. If something "violates" one of our natural laws, it doesn't destroy them, it simply means we haven't fully come to understand that natural law.

[thesometimesaint]

Sigh

 

I know. I'm not saying they are.

 

Furthermore, I know speciation quite well...I study just about every day, considering that its an intrinsic part of my major (Biological Anthropology). The creation of a mule is not a speciation event, it is the result of one. Speciation refers to the trans-generation process whereby Donkeys and Horses could no longer produce fertile offspring, not breeding a mule. Generation-to-generation speciation occurs in only extremely rare instances.

 

Donkey's and horses are two different species closely related enough to interbreed the resulting offspring are sterile and not able to reproduce with either parent or of themselves. True it is usually multigenerational but not necessary.

[halconero]

Donkey's and horses are two different species closely related enough to interbreed the resulting offspring are sterile and not able to reproduce with either parent or of themselves. True it is usually multigenerational but not necessary.

 

Good. You've just defined the biological species concept and the evolutionary process.

Edited April 14, 2014 by halconero

[Rob Osborn]

Nope.  Not in the flesh. The JST corrects Luke to say that Adam was formed of God and not a son of as is the rest of the genealogy. Luke 3:38 footnote c.

You are wrong, the JST is an extension of the words not a replacement. It should thus read-

38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God who was formed of God, and the first man upon the earth.

If you will also note in 38d it gives a link to Moses 6:22 which is the asctual correct translation of Genesis-

22 And this is the genealogy of the sons of Adam, who was the son of God, with whom God, himself, conversed.

 

[thesometimesaint]

1) Who was it that just told me that the whole dust blowing, man creation thing was allegorical?

 

2) Who says that miracles could not be explained through scientific means? Maybe God caused the axe to float by influence its chemical density, or that the Spirit somehow influences electrical patterns in the brain to enable someone to enter a visionary state. I have no clue. What I do know is that even miracles work within a framework. If something "violates" one of our natural laws, it doesn't destroy them, it simply means we haven't fully come to understand that natural law.

 

I did.

 

If you want to put the Scriptures as allegorical I won't object. Changing the chemical density of an axehead pretty well destroys its usefulness as an axehead, unless God changed it back again, But as God is omnipotent he can do that. I know of some "magic" mushrooms that produce that effect too. I think it is rather short sighted to attribute what is not understood to God.

[Rob Osborn]

God took a pile of dust, breathed into it and thus made man. At least according to Scripture. How to get life from dust is another question.

We are all created from the dust of the earth and we all know how life comes about from this dust. Its called procreation.

[thesometimesaint]

We are all created from the dust of the earth and we all know how life comes about from this dust. Its called procreation.

 

Then how come life as we know it is mostly water and carbon the two things not common in dust?

[Rob Osborn]

If we want to get real technical and to the point the scriptures actually place man on the earth on the seventh day with he being the first life created before the other animals are created.

 

 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, ^acreated all things, of which I have spoken, ^bspiritually, before they were ^cnaturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had ^dcreated all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ^eground; for in ^fheaven ^gcreated I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

 6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a ^amist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

 7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the ^adust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the ^bbreath of life; and ^cman became a living ^dsoul, the ^efirst flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3:5-7)

[thesometimesaint]

If we want to get real technical and to the point the scriptures actually place man on the earth on the seventh day with he being the first life created before the other animals are created.

 

 5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, ^acreated all things, of which I have spoken, ^bspiritually, before they were ^cnaturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had ^dcreated all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ^eground; for in ^fheaven ^gcreated I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

 6 But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a ^amist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

 7 And I, the Lord God, formed man from the ^adust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the ^bbreath of life; and ^cman became a living ^dsoul, the ^efirst flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3:5-7)

 

To till the ground you need first have something to till it with. Then put seeds into it, and wait for those seeds to grow.  With wheat it takes about 150 days. I don't know about you but I get pretty hungry after just a few days.

[Rob Osborn]

Then how come life as we know it is mostly water and carbon the two things not common in dust?

And yet when our mortal remains disentegrate they do so by returning to dust. We are all dust-

 

20 All go unto one place; all are of the ^adust, and all turn to dust again. (Eccl. 3:20)

14 For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are ^adust. (Psalms 103:14)

29 Thou hidest thy ^aface, they are troubled: thou takest away their ^bbreath, they die, and return to their ^cdust. (Psalms 104:29)

 17 Their sleeping ^adust was to be ^brestored unto its ^cperfect frame, ^dbone to his bone, and the sinews and the flesh upon them, the ^espirit and the body to be united never again to be divided, that they might receive a fulness of ^fjoy. (D&C 138:17)

[Rob Osborn]

To till the ground you need first have something to till it with. Then put seeds into it, and wait for those seeds to grow.  With wheat it takes about 150 days. I don't know about you but I get pretty hungry after just a few days.

God had already placed seeds in the ground but had not yet caused any rain to fall on the earth and cause growth leading up to the seventh day. It was then on the seventh day God causes it to rain and then after that he creates the garden then man and places him there before any other life of animals. Then at this point he forms all the animals and brings them to Adam to name.

[thesometimesaint]

God had already placed seeds in the ground but had not yet caused any rain to fall on the earth and cause growth leading up to the seventh day. It was then on the seventh day God causes it to rain and then after that he creates the garden then man and places him there before any other life of animals. Then at this point he forms all the animals and brings them to Adam to name.

 

What was Adam eating before that mist caused the seeds to germinate? Or maybe he was eating this fish.http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/

Edited April 14, 2014 by thesometimesaint

[Anijen]

Trying to show someone evidence to one who does not believe in evidence becomes a futile exercise. 

 

I will just join the popcorn eaters and shake my head in bewilderment.

[Rob Osborn]

What was Adam eating before that mist caused the seeds to germinate? Or maybe he was eating this fish.http://tiktaalik.uchicago.edu/

Do you ever read the scriptures? Read carefully. It says that God caused it to rain and then after it rained and life began to grow God then creates man.

[thesometimesaint]

Do you ever read the scriptures? Read carefully. It says that God caused it to rain and then after it rained and life began to grow God then creates man.

 

Every day.

 

Genesis 1:11-17

King James Version (KJV)

11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

¹² And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

¹³ And the evening and the morning were the third day.

¹⁴ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

¹⁵ And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

¹⁶ And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

¹⁷ And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.

 

So according to Scripture grass, herbs, trees, days, and seasons were here before the moon and the sun existed.

[Rob Osborn]

Every day.

 

Genesis 1:11-17

King James Version (KJV)

11. And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

¹² And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

¹³ And the evening and the morning were the third day.

¹⁴ And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

¹⁵ And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

¹⁶ And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

¹⁷ And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.

 

So according to Scripture grass, herbs, trees, days, and seasons were here before the moon and the sun existed.

Thats the spiritual creation. Keep reading, you have to get to chapter two where it explains that it there was not yet any physical animal or man on the earth, in the water nor in the sky yet. It hadnt even rained yet until the seventh day.

[thesometimesaint]

Thats the spiritual creation. Keep reading, you have to get to chapter two where it explains that it there was not yet any physical animal or man on the earth, in the water nor in the sky yet. It hadnt even rained yet until the seventh day.

 

Non Sequitur.

[Swampfox53]

In my personal research on the topic of evolution I have found no evidence of Darwins theory other than his vivid imagination. There is simply no evidence of one species evolving into another, ie. macro evolution. We see micro evolution, that is evolution within a species or probably more appropatly adaptation. The fosill record shows no evidence of one species evolving into another such as a half reptile half bird. For years scientists were searching for the so called missing link between Neandertal and Cro-Magnon. Well come to find out Neandertal DNA is alive and well in modern humans. Simply because species share DNA to me does not support evolution but only suggests perhaps a common sorce materal. I read somewhere we share 50% of our DNA with a bannanna. Does that make me a fruit? I don't think so. Modern science has revealed DNA can be minupilated and life can be created. Given that the master of the universe probably has more knowledge than modern man I am quite comfortable with creationism as my paradigm. We now have a new idea reffered to as intelegent design that is used so scientists don't have to acknowledge God as creator. The Glory of God is Intellegence.

[Brian 2.0]

There is simply no evidence of one species evolving into another, ie. macro evolution.

And what would that evidence looks like to you?

[bcuzbcuz]

As soon as they showed the fish walking out of the ocean onto land I laughed, stopped the video and did something better with my time. Sad that they go to such great measures to make educational fairy tales.

I have pictures my wife took in Thailand of a mudskipper, a fish that walks on land. It climbs up on rocks, using its fins as flippers, to position itself. Then as the water retreats it has the rock surfaces to itself to forage for food.

Not science fiction, just life doing what it does best, taking advantage of situations. Check out pictures yourself, just google mudskippers.

[Teancum]

To correspond with the Cosmos thread here...

 

http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/63085-cosmos-are-you-watching/

 

...I thought one might also be interested in the 'Your Inner Fish' Series.  It's quite good.  Evolution, Fossils, Embryos, Genetics, and yes, even Sonic Hedgehog (very important, you'll just have to watch).  Try episode one:

 

http://www.pbs.org/your-inner-fish/watch/

 

I think most people will come away with a much better sense of what Evolution is and the science behind it. Have not detected any anti-religion/anti-Christian sentiment so far.  My own belief in God is strengthened by seeing how His intricate creation works, is put together, and made.

 

 

A great book. Certainly creates problems for an actual Adam, Fall of man, no death before the fall and need for an atonement.

[Teancum]

As soon as they showed the fish walking out of the ocean onto land I laughed, stopped the video and did something better with my time. Sad that they go to such great measures to make educational fairy tales.

 

 

Ah it is tough when facts conflict with fantasy isn't it?