Oaks' New Paradigm: Keys Of Priestesshood?

[Calm]

Mikey, women can have authority over men as well such as male Primary teachers, women are teachers of mixed gender classes and in service to families, they are not just serving the women. They may even be helping a family with no woman present as occurred in my former ward where the mother had died of cancer and the RS and Primary were very active in supporting the family.

[Bikeemikey]

Perhaps there is something of spiritual power required, unconsciously of course, need to connect the spirit of God's child with the body. Pure speculation, but I've wondered about how it was done and was thinking of this as a possibility. Barren women wouldn't be using it, like a man who didn't give blessings or baptised but still held the Priesthood.

I find this unlikely, though in an infinite universe I won't say never. This idea however does risk making barren women who prayerfully and humbly seek gods help to have a baby not just biologically deficient but possibly priesthoodly deficient also...

Also should a sterile man be allowed the Phood

[Stone holm]

I find this unlikely, though in an infinite universe I won't say never. This idea however does risk making barren women who prayerfully and humbly seek gods help to have a baby not just biologically deficient but possibly priesthoodly deficient also...

Also should a sterile man be allowed the Phood

And we condemn the idea that Ishtar was anciently worshipped in the Temple as a fertility goddess, and the make fertility a Priesthood power, hm.

[Bikeemikey]

Mikey, women can have authority over men as well such as male Primary teachers, women are teachers of mixed gender classes and in service to families, they are not just serving the women. They may even be helping a family with no woman present as occurred in my former ward where the mother had died of cancer and the RS and Primary were very active in supporting the family.

 

I think you might be talking about Boys... but sure I guess there is an example that disproves every rule...

[Calm]

I find this unlikely, though in an infinite universe I won't say never. This idea however does risk making barren women who prayerfully and humbly seek gods help to have a baby not just biologically deficient but possibly priesthoodly deficient also...

Also should a sterile man be allowed the Phood

You are making unrequired assumptions about the possibility. Is a man who is physically incapable of giving others blessings etc. thought to be deficient in their Priesthood?

And if it is a key given to women, whether or not they are sterile (able to make use of it), why would there be any question about whether male Priesthood should be given to a sterile male?

Edited April 8, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

I think you might be talking about Boys... but sure I guess there is an example that disproves every rule...

i have yet to see a boy made a teacher in Primary but have seen plenty of men teaching. Have you never had a female as a teacher in a gospel doctrine class? Can a woman not be able to direct compassionate service for a male adult?

I have been called a couple of times to position in scouting where my stewardship included leadership over male adults, also as ward librarian I had adult male assistant librarians working with me I was responsible for. Music ward directors may give direction to adult males. Those who are in charge of activities.

These are common occurrences, not exceptions.

Edited April 8, 2014 by calmoriah

[Traela]

Agreed!

 

Maybe Mary (mother of Jesus) and Mary Magdeline would play a key role in such a revelation.

 

And the idea of women having their own priesthood is not at all far-fetched.  It has been a while since I read it, and I don't have the reference at my fingertips, but I recall when reading the Joseph Smith Papers that when Joseph established the Relief Society, he originally established it as a companion priesthood entity for the women of the Church.  The RS was NOT originally established as an auxiliary organization, but held equal footing with the men.  He even stated that the organization of the Church could not be complete until the women's organization was established.  It was also very commonplace for women to administer blessings for the sick by the laying on of hands in the early days of the Church.

There is even more to it than that, that I think Elder Oaks may have missed, and needs to be addressed.

What if the Brethren don't have the keys, because they have already been given?

When the RS was organized, Joseph Smith said, "I turn the key to you..." What if he meant that literally, and he was bestowing keys upon the members of the Relief Society. It would change everything. Relief Society would regain its rightful place as, not an auxiliary, but an help meet for the Melchizedek Priesthood.

I really want to write to Elder Oaks and ask him about this.

[Stone holm]

i have yet to see a boy made a teacher in Primary but have seen plenty of men teaching. Have you never had a female as a teacher in a gospel doctrine class? Can a woman not be able to direct compassionate service for a male adult?

I have been called a couple of times to position in scouting where my stewardship included leadership over male adults, also as ward librarian I had adult male assistant librarians working with me I was responsible for. Music ward directors may give direction to adult males. Those who are in charge of activities.

These are common occurrences, not exceptions.

Yeah and we all know Bishops whose wives are really calling the shots.....oh wait....

[Calm]

Are you saying Primary presidencies don't have authority over the male Primary teachers?

[CV75]

I really want to write to Elder Oaks and ask him about this.

Would you ask him something for me too: What is the difference between "I turn the key to you" and "I turn the key over to you? -- ?

[David T]

Would you ask him something for me too: What is the difference between "I turn the key to you" and "I turn the key over to you? -- ?

 

Or, as the earlier editors changed it, "It turn the key in your behalf" - which is what was repeated for a long time, but was not what was recorded as what Joseph said.

[David T]

I'm going to revise my understanding based on reviewing the talk again:

 

1. I do think Oaks believes there is a distinct key for Priestesshood.

2. Oaks does not appear to believe the key to Priestesshood is currently held by the President of the Church

3. Oaks appears to believe all keys for this dispensation have been granted.

4. Oaks does not appear to believe the Key to Priestesshood will be restored until the Millennium.

5. Thus, Oaks is seeking to understand the extent to which women can act under and with the authority of the extant Priesthood Keys, and seeking to expand and clarify this relationship.

 

So my speculation still might be what ends up happening, but in Oaks view, it seems like he doesn't believe it will in this dispensation, prior to a Millennial period. Which, yes, sounds familiar, but the difference with OD-2 is that the Key of the MP was already there and active, and just needed to be clarified that it was authorized for everyone (Africans were never thought to need a 'different' Priesthood), and here, Oaks does not believe an OD-2 type revelation would do the job, because he does not appear to believe the Key is present to be activated.

 

I still believe this is an important new paradigm being articulated, but (disappointingly) don't think it is understood to be likely that we're going to be seeing that Key restored any time soon.

[Stone holm]

Are you saying Primary presidencies don't have authority over the male Primary teachers?

 

Can they call or release them?

[Calm]

Is that the only form of authority that matters?

I would think the authority that is over the performance of the calling itself was more important than just the getting and leaving of it.

Edited April 8, 2014 by calmoriah

[ksfisher]

Can they call or release them?

I have authority over people I supervise at work, but I can't fire them.

[David T]

BEGIN RESTORATION FAN FICTION:

Or Maybe Joseph Smith did recieve the Key of Priestesshood, and did 'turn [over] the key' to Emma. But because she didn't come to Utah, neither did that Key, but remained with her and her Branch of the Restoration . . . who eventually began to ordain Women ... and its only a matter of time before a Female President Prophetess arises in that Branch . . .and the time draws near for the keys to be Reunited . . . 

END RESTORATION FAN FICTION

Edited April 8, 2014 by David T

[JLHPROF]

BEGIN RESTORATION FAN FICTION:

Or Maybe Joseph Smith did recieve the Key of Priestesshood, and did 'turn [over] the key' to Emma. But because she didn't come to Utah, neither did that Key, but remained with her and her Branch of the Restoration . . . who eventually began to ordain Women 

END RESTORATION FAN FICTION

 

Love it!

 

It is amazing how we don't recognize how women actually do hold the priesthood and have to start making up silly theories with no real historical basis.

[Senator]

Love it!

 

It is amazing how we don't recognize how women actually do hold the priesthood and have to start making up silly theories with no real historical basis.

 

..OR, it's amazing that we do recognize how women actually do not hold the priesthood and have to start making up silly theories of how they do.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Senator

[Stone holm]

BEGIN RESTORATION FAN FICTION:

Or Maybe Joseph Smith did recieve the Key of Priestesshood, and did 'turn [over] the key' to Emma. But because she didn't come to Utah, neither did that Key, but remained with her and her Branch of the Restoration . . . who eventually began to ordain Women ... and its only a matter of time before a Female President Prophetess arises in that Branch . . .and the time draws near for the keys to be Reunited . . . 

END RESTORATION FAN FICTION

Interesting argument, or she stayed in Nauvoo joined the falling away and the key needs to be restored. Similar to King Josiah purging the Temple of worship of Heavenly Mother. Given motherhood has been declared a priesthood power, maybe we are moving back to acceptance of fertility deities .

[JLHPROF]

..OR, it's amazing that we do recognize how women actually do not hold the priesthood and have to start making up silly theories of how they do.

 

No, they do.  The temple is pretty clear on the subject for those who pay attention.  No theories (silly or otherwise) necessary.

[Senator]

No, they do.  The temple is pretty clear on the subject for those who pay attention.  No theories (silly or otherwise) necessary.

 

It's amazing how this realization is now coming to fruition.  In all my days in the church (since birth) I never heard it proclaimed that women hold the priesthood till now. All it took was the right nuance to be put in place and, BANG! women now hold, and have always held the priesthood!

Edited April 8, 2014 by Senator

[JLHPROF]

It's amazing how this realization is now coming to fruition.  In all my days in the church (since birth) I never heard it proclaimed that women hold the priesthood till now. All it took was the right nuance to be put in place and, BANG! women now hold, and have always held the priesthood!

 

Not sure if you're being sarcastic here (seems like you are), but I agree?

 

The simple fact has always been that there are two areas where priesthood functions - ecclesiastical and temple.  Both can be Aaronic/Levitical level and both can be Melchezidek level.  This is very clear in the scriptures and in the temple.

 

Joseph, Brigham and others always recognized the superiority of the temple priesthood to the point that they both stated they that they were going to focus on the temple priesthood and that the Church could be run by anyone, be it Hyrum (correct) or Ann Lee (joke).

 

If you consider all the things that are given to you in the temple, both the actual items given and the spiritual things bestowed, they are almost all named "Priesthood xyz" or "xyz of the Priesthood".  And last I checked women received these items singly and independently just as men do.

 

It is sad that we had to have this big debate over women and the priesthood to recognize what should have been obvious from the beginning and should be taught to our young women.  But then what OW really want is authority in the Church and a bigger say in the running of it, so actually receiving eternal priesthood keys is secondary to them if they don't get an equal say.

[Ahab]

There is even more to it than that, that I think Elder Oaks may have missed, and needs to be addressed.

What if the Brethren don't have the keys, because they have already been given?

When the RS was organized, Joseph Smith said, "I turn the key to you..." What if he meant that literally, and he was bestowing keys upon the members of the Relief Society. It would change everything. Relief Society would regain its rightful place as, not an auxiliary, but an help meet for the Melchizedek Priesthood.

I really want to write to Elder Oaks and ask him about this.

You mean what if what the Relief Society is for women is equivalent and equal to what the Priesthood is for men? Or in other words, what if what women want when they want the prieshood is essentially what they already have in the Relief Society? Or in other words, what if Elder Oaks was essentially telling women that they should not be asking men about what they should do to have the power they seek but instead should talking with women in Relief Society about how to exercise the power they already have but don't realize they have because they don't realize the power alteady given and already a part of what the Relief Society already is?

Yeah, I mean, come on! It's something women just need to take care of, themselves. Men are not holding them back. If anything I'm just trying to be a cheerleader for women, just trying to encourage and support them in doing all the good they do and can do as women!

[mtomm]

 

 

It is sad that we had to have this big debate over women and the priesthood to recognize what should have been obvious from the beginning and should be taught to our young women. 

Considering how touchy people are about talking about the Temple I doubt you'll get a resounding applause for teaching these concepts to the young women.  In fact, I dare say since we can hardly even utter words used in the temple to explain an idea without receiving rebukes that most people have little understanding of all the temple has to offer. 

 

It is so sacred that it just remains an enigma.  People like the temple because they get a good feeling there, unfortunately since we teach little of what actually happens there (beyond redeeming the dead) they are missing on what there really is to learn.

Edited April 9, 2014 by mtomm

[JLHPROF]

Considering how touchy people are about talking about the Temple I doubt you'll get a resounding applause for teaching these concepts to the young women.  In fact, I dare say since we can hardly even utter words used in the temple to explain an idea without receiving rebukes that most people have little understanding of all the temple has to offer. 

 

It is so sacred that it just remains an enigma.  People like the temple because they get a good feeling there, unfortunately since we teach little of what actually happens there (beyond redeeming the dead) they are missing on what there really is to like.

 

This is so true and very understandable.  It's also a little sad.  It would go a long way towards helping our young women feel like they have a more significant role in God's kingdom and perhaps feel less like Priesthood is something denied to them.