Oaks' New Paradigm: Keys Of Priestesshood?

[David T]

Women are said to have Priestesshood in the eternities. We have in our liturgy the term and concept of Priestesshood (female), distinct from Priesthood (male).

If this is something different than Melchizedek/Aaronic, it makes sense that a new Key is necessary to actualize it.

Edited April 6, 2014 by David T

[CV75]

Women are said to have Priestesshood in the eternities. We have in our liturgy the term and concept of Priestesshood (female), distinct from Priesthood (male).

If this is something different than Melchizedek/Aaronic, it makes sense that a new Key is necessary to actualize it.

I think in every case where they are held in a condition that is less than exaltation, both are appendages to the overarching Priesthood of God, but this overarching Priesthood can only be established only by the merger of the two as a compound in one through the covenant of marriage. Otehrwise they operate separately and singly without the fulness we are invited to partake of, or the continuation of the seeds.

[CV75]

One might easily see the possible "priestesshood" as naturally existing and fully implied in the temple.

I think it is and Elder Cristofferson has said so much with regards to the moral authority of women: https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/the-moral-force-of-women?lang=eng

 

the veil ceremony

You mean the drapes?!

[mfbukowski]

I am not sure what you mean.

Repeatedly we see the symbolism of being "clothed" in flesh. That symbol applies on many levels in the temple.

Dang.

Miserere Nobis was right. Here I end up with the Gospel of Thomas after all.

http://mfbukowski.wordpress.com/hymn-of-the-soul-proto-mormon-gnostic-text/

[wenglund]

If women do have a different priesthood, requiring different keys, then the question becomes: what will be their different priesthood domain and roles, and in what different ways will the female priesthood be manifest and applied than for men. While men have been given the authority and power of administration, I wonder what women will be given authority and power over? Could it have to do with creation  pr "quickening" in the resurrection as David T speculates? I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be surprised if it also had something to do with the tradition female role of bring beauty into the world, or "glorification" in the resurrection. Given the heightened sense of women for relationships, I also wouldn't be surprised if their priesthood had much to do with sealings. It will be interesting to find out.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[mfbukowski]

If women do have a different priesthood, requiring different keys, then the question becomes: what will be their different priesthood domain and roles, and in what different ways will the female priesthood be manifest and applied than for men. While men have been given the authority and power of administration, I wonder what women will be given authority and power over? Could it have to do with creation  pr "quickening" in the resurrection as David T speculates? I wouldn't be surprised. I also wouldn't be surprised if it also had something to do with the tradition female role of bring beauty into the world, or "glorification" in the resurrection. Given the heightened sense of women for relationships, I also wouldn't be surprised if their priesthood had much to do with sealings. It will be interesting to find out.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

I think spiritually CV has made a great point- child bearing itself is the creation of humanity.

There is authority and then there is civilization and kindness within that authority.  My wife is constantly after me to get civilized and stop being a "cave-man". 

 

Perhaps the keys to re-birth itself- resurrection - could fit in there somehow.

 

Does any of this fit in with Mary Mag. not touching the savior until he had ascended to his father?  What was she really doing there anyway? 

 

As long as we are wildly speculating, let's go for it! 

Edited April 6, 2014 by mfbukowski

[Stone holm]

All She needs to be a God and fulfill her responsibilities as the Mother to us all.

 

I've said it a dozen times on this site - women DO hold priesthood in the eternities and that is evidenced in the Temple, the eternities represented on earth.

What the group protesting on Temple Square is actually after is power within the Church beyond the auxiliary departments.  Not really after true priesthood or they would realize they already can have it.

Should we be talking about Heavenly Mother instead of a Heavenly Mother? Do we assume we all have the same Heavenly Mother?

[CV75]

Perhaps the keys to re-birth itself- resurrection - could fit in there somehow.

I think this might have to do with the idea that Creation could not be resurrected into a higher glory until Eve entered the picture and both she and Adam exited it together and in the order in which they made their respective covenants in relation to the announcement of the Redemption.

 

Now, since since both are in mortality, the woman (as the creator of bodies "naturally") cannot create those bodies on a higher level in this world (that is, in the covenant) until the husband and wife enter the order given in the temple ceremony. Only then the sealed family (both immediate and its generations) has the hope of being resurrected into exaltation.

[JLHPROF]

Should we be talking about Heavenly Mother instead of a Heavenly Mother? Do we assume we all have the same Heavenly Mother?

 

No, but I've had quite enough of debating eternal polygamy for one week....

[CV75]

Does any of this fit in with Mary Mag. not touching the savior until he had ascended to his father?  What was she really doing there anyway?

I think it does fit with the role of Mary the mother of Jesus. by creating His body in the flesh, she also brought the Resurrection into this world.

[mfbukowski]

I think this might have to do with the idea that Creation could not be resurrected into a higher glory until Eve entered the picture and both she and Adam exited it together and in the order in which they made their respective covenants in relation to the announcement of the Redemption.

 

Now, since since both are in mortality, the woman (as the creator of bodies "naturally") cannot create those bodies on a higher level in this world (that is, in the covenant) until the husband and wife enter the order given in the temple ceremony. Only then the sealed family (both immediate and its generations) has the hope of being resurrected into exaltation.

I definitely think you are on the right track .  Thinking.

[mfbukowski]

I think it does fit with the role of Mary the mother of Jesus. by creating His body in the flesh, she also brought the Resurrection into this world.

Catholics see her as co-redemptrix. But if anyone gets that title I would think it would be Jesus' wife. Dunno. Edited April 7, 2014 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

I am not sure what you mean.

Repeatedly we see the symbolism of being "clothed" in flesh. That symbol applies on many levels in the temple.

Dang.

Miserere Nobis was right. Here I end up with the Gospel of Thomas after all.

http://mfbukowski.wordpress.com/hymn-of-the-soul-proto-mormon-gnostic-text/

 

Too bad I can't give myself rep points when you say I am right after all

[MiserereNobis]

I think it does fit with the role of Mary the mother of Jesus. by creating His body in the flesh, she also brought the Resurrection into this world.

 

This borders on Catholic theology, that because of the Blessed Virgin Mary there is salvation, therefore she is the co-redemptrix of the world.

 

ETA:  Mark beat me to it.

Edited April 7, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

Too bad I can't give myself rep points when you say I am right after all

That's ok I'll just give you a few you don't deserve.

[MiserereNobis]

That's ok I'll just give you a few you don't deserve.

 

I agree, and I boast in my humility

[Stone holm]

No, but I've had quite enough of debating eternal polygamy for one week....

Well can't object to that.

[mfbukowski]

I agree, and I boast in my humility

And another point.  But we are definitely caught up now.    In fact after this one, I think I want a refund. 

[CV75]

Catholics see her as co-redemptrix. But if anyone gets that title I would think it would be Jesus' wife. Dunno.

 

This borders on Catholic theology, that because of the Blessed Virgin Mary there is salvation, therefore she is the co-redemptrix of the world.

 

ETA:  Mark beat me to it.

In that case, all women are co-redemptrices (another aspect of being a "Savior on Mount Zion," which all the servants of God are). All women create bodies that will be resurrected; without their creation they would/could not be resurrected.

 

There are many kinds of creation but only a couple of kinds of resurrection (that I can think of, anyway), and only one kind of final resurrection (with many degrees of glory). I've always envisioned this last resurrection as a priesthood ordinance governed by Christ. If women have the first role as redemptrices, men might have the counterpart role in the final ordinance.

[Ahab]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

I'm going to follow a preliminary trail of clearly speculative musing, pondering, and logic here.

If this is what he meant, this changes the paradigm. What would now need to be sought is not just a revealed 'go ahead', but it would suggest, if going by past prescedent, that what would be expected and needed is a manifestation of a personage bestowing the keys.

And if it's keys of a Priestesshood, who would bestow it? A resurrected Woman? And would it be bestowed on the President of the Church? Not if it was a Priestesshood. It would need to be a woman. But the President would need to be witness to such an event, and bear witness of it, right? Then who better/more appropriate to have a joint visionary experience and to receive such keys of a Matriarchal Priesthood than the wife of the Prophet/Patriarch - the Prophetess/Matriarch.

If this logic is followed, these conditions might be needed for the ordination to a distinct Priestesshood in the Church:

1. A Vision/Visitation Bestowal of the Keys by a Resurrected divine female messenger

2. A living wife of a living Prophet to receive the keys, and be able to distribute them.

Is this what is holding back revealed knowledge of a Heavenly Mother? Is this knowledge meant to be revealed through the Keys of the Matriarchal Priesthood? Is this a part of the Restoration of All Things that we should yet look forward to?

Nice deflection.

On the other hand, it was a very nice way for Elder Oaks (perhaps also speaking for other prophets and apostles) to tell the OW (and other like-minded women) that they can not grant their desire to be ordained in the priesthood.

[Calm]

In what way is what he saying a "deflection"?

[mtomm]

Does it seem odd to anyone else that ALL women are given the potential of exercising this "priesthood" power of granting life but only men who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints can use the men's priesthood authority?  There are no qualifications  (other than being fertile and finding a partner), no worthiness involved to exercise that authority.  In fact, you can have it happen accidentally with no intent to bring a life into the world.  It can also happen against your own will.  Do we really think that is equal to the priesthood authority for male church members?

Edited April 7, 2014 by mtomm

[Calm]

If we are all children of God, then I assume there are aspects of his power and authority that are simply inherited in our natures while others need to be given by him, just as happens with our mortal parents.

[ERayR]

This borders on Catholic theology, that because of the Blessed Virgin Mary there is salvation, therefore she is the co-redemptrix of the world.

 

ETA:  Mark beat me to it.

 

Truth  is truth no matter where it is housed.  But I get ahead of myself as it has not yet been established that this is true.  Very intriguing though.

[David T]

Mtom,

And many faithful endowed LDS women do NOT have that power functioning in them. I know first-hand infertile married women who have had their feelings of self-worth deeply affected by this line of reasoning.

My goodness. It could be rationally expressed that that fertile bunny over there is exercising more creative priesthood power than an infertile Mormon woman.

Is this really the road we want to go down?