Oaks' New Paradigm: Keys Of Priestesshood?

[David T]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

I'm going to follow a preliminary trail of clearly speculative musing, pondering, and logic here.

If this is what he meant, this changes the paradigm. What would now need to be sought is not just a revealed 'go ahead', but it would suggest, if going by past prescedent, that what would be expected and needed is a manifestation of a personage bestowing the keys.

And if it's keys of a Priestesshood, who would bestow it? A resurrected Woman? And would it be bestowed on the President of the Church? Not if it was a Priestesshood. It would need to be a woman. But the President would need to be witness to such an event, and bear witness of it, right? Then who better/more appropriate to have a joint visionary experience and to receive such keys of a Matriarchal Priesthood than the wife of the Prophet/Patriarch - the Prophetess/Matriarch.

If this logic is followed, these conditions might be needed for the ordination to a distinct Priestesshood in the Church:

1. A Vision/Visitation Bestowal of the Keys by a Resurrected divine female messenger
2. A living wife of a living Prophet to receive the keys, and be able to distribute them.

Is this what is holding back revealed knowledge of a Heavenly Mother? Is this knowledge meant to be revealed through the Keys of the Matriarchal Priesthood? Is this a part of the Restoration of All Things that we should yet look forward to?

 

EDIT: For those just joining,  I have clarified and revised my thoughts on this matter. See Post#87 - also, here is a link to Elder Oaks' talk itself: The Keys and Authority of the Priesthood

Edited April 9, 2014 by David T

[The Nehor]

Well, if the prophetesses of the Old Testament did hold some kind of Priesthood (I have no idea whether they did or not) then it will have to be restored to us as part of the restoration of all things in the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times. There are probably other neat things from other dispensations we still need to restore and do not know of.

[David T]

Maybe it's not Heavenly Father's to give, it's Heavenly Mothers', and, since her existence has now been deduced by the Saints, She's waiting for us to ask Her for it... 

Edited April 6, 2014 by David T

[The Nehor]

Maybe it's not Heavenly Father's to give, it's Heavenly Mothers', and, since her existence has now been deduced by the Saints, She's waiting for us to ask Her for it... 

 

I am sure someone has done that by now. I have long since decided that my prayers are heard by both of them and that God is both of them. I really doubt She would keep quiet in a fit of pique over not being addressed directly. She would instead tell her Husband to tell the prophet to tell the saints to start praying to both of them.

[Bikeemikey]

http://m.imgur.com/xq3uIU8

Is this what it will looking like a decade from now?

[Bikeemikey]

He blew the conversation wide open in my opinion... It was almost like he was opening the door with one hand and then slapping the face of the person trying to get through

It was an excellent talk... I'll need a lot of time to figure it out.

[Bikeemikey]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key (of Priestesshood?) would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

I'm going to follow a trail of clearly speculative logic here.

If this is what he meant, this changes the paradigm. What would now need to be sought is not just a revealed 'go ahead', but it would suggest, if going by past prescedent, that what would be expected and needed is a manifestation of a personage bestowing the keys.

And if it's keys of a Priestesshood, who would bestow it? A resurrected Woman? And would it be bestowed on the President of the Church? Not if it was a Priestesshood. It would need to be a woman. But the President would need to be witness to such an event, and bear witness of it, right? Then who better/more appropriate to have a joint visionary experience and to receive such keys of a Matriarchal Priesthood than the wife of the Prophet/Patriarch - the Prophetess/Matriarch.

If this logic is followed, these conditions might be needed for the ordination to a distinct Priestesshood in the Church:

1. A Vision/Visitation Bestowal of the Keys by a Resurrected divine female messenger

2. A living wife of a living Prophet to receive the keys, and be able to distribute them.

Is this what is holding back revealed knowledge of a Heavenly Mother? Is this knowledge meant to be revealed through the Keys of the Matriarchal Priesthood? Is this a part of the Restoration of All Things that we should yet look forward to?

A visitation is not a hard and fast requirement at this point, and if it was there is no need for it to come to the prophets wife... In fact that seems far more likely that the relief society president would get it Edited April 6, 2014 by Bikeemikey

[The Nehor]

A visitation is not a hard and fast requirement at this point, and if it was there is no need for it to come to the prophets wife... In fact that seems far more likely that the relief society president would get it

 

If it is separate from the mainstream priesthood in its own separate sphere then it could be given by angelic visitation to a female leader or anyone at all though I expect they would involve the current Priesthood leaders in some way to prevent conflict. I see this as very doubtful. It would remove the idea of the head of the Church being the one person having and exercising all Priesthood keys.

 

More likely it would be the same priesthood (the Melchizedek Priesthood seems to be all there is) and could be passed on by current priesthood holders. If there are new offices and functions the Prophet would need the keys to govern them (unless they are included in what he has).

 

Again, all speculation. I don't have a horse in the race and do not have strong feelings either way. I am just a speculating spectator.

[Calm]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

 

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key (of Priestesshood?) would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

 

I'm going to follow a trail of clearly speculative logic here.

 

If this is what he meant, this changes the paradigm. What would now need to be sought is not just a revealed 'go ahead', but it would suggest, if going by past prescedent, that what would be expected and needed is a manifestation of a personage bestowing the keys.

 

And if it's keys of a Priestesshood, who would bestow it? A resurrected Woman? And would it be bestowed on the President of the Church? Not if it was a Priestesshood. It would need to be a woman. But the President would need to be witness to such an event, and bear witness of it, right? Then who better/more appropriate to have a joint visionary experience and to receive such keys of a Matriarchal Priesthood than the wife of the Prophet/Patriarch - the Prophetess/Matriarch.

 

If this logic is followed, these conditions might be needed for the ordination to a distinct Priestesshood in the Church:

 

1. A Vision/Visitation Bestowal of the Keys by a Resurrected divine female messenger

2. A living wife of a living Prophet to receive the keys, and be able to distribute them. 

 

Is this what is holding back revealed knowledge of a Heavenly Mother? Is this knowledge meant to be revealed through the Keys of the Matriarchal Priesthood? Is this a part of the Restoration of All Things that we should yet look forward to?

Now this is speculation I can really get into.

[mfbukowski]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

 

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key (of Priestesshood?) would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

 

I'm going to follow a trail of clearly speculative logic here.

 

If this is what he meant, this changes the paradigm. What would now need to be sought is not just a revealed 'go ahead', but it would suggest, if going by past prescedent, that what would be expected and needed is a manifestation of a personage bestowing the keys.

 

And if it's keys of a Priestesshood, who would bestow it? A resurrected Woman? And would it be bestowed on the President of the Church? Not if it was a Priestesshood. It would need to be a woman. But the President would need to be witness to such an event, and bear witness of it, right? Then who better/more appropriate to have a joint visionary experience and to receive such keys of a Matriarchal Priesthood than the wife of the Prophet/Patriarch - the Prophetess/Matriarch.

 

If this logic is followed, these conditions might be needed for the ordination to a distinct Priestesshood in the Church:

 

1. A Vision/Visitation Bestowal of the Keys by a Resurrected divine female messenger

2. A living wife of a living Prophet to receive the keys, and be able to distribute them. 

 

Is this what is holding back revealed knowledge of a Heavenly Mother? Is this knowledge meant to be revealed through the Keys of the Matriarchal Priesthood? Is this a part of the Restoration of All Things that we should yet look forward to?

A very intriguing idea indeed, as well as a very intriguing way to solve a thorny problem.

 

The idea that gender is an eternal aspect of an individual remains as well as that genders have roles specific to their gender remains.  We already know that women will one day be "priestesses"- it just moves up the date we thought such a thing would happen.  Women get their own priesthood, but not the Melchizadek priesthood, and men would not get their priesthood.

 

Fascinating idea.

[mfbukowski]

Now this is speculation I can really get into.

And quite an exciting prospect.!

[mfbukowski]

I am sure someone has done that by now. I have long since decided that my prayers are heard by both of them and that God is both of them. I really doubt She would keep quiet in a fit of pique over not being addressed directly. She would instead tell her Husband to tell the prophet to tell the saints to start praying to both of them.

Certainly the Godhead is a glorified Family;  this would just make it a full family structure, and fits perfectly with the Patriarchal Order in which all those exalted would be sealed into one family of humanity.

 

This also puts our doctrine finally and explicitly into the category of social trinitarianism

[The Nehor]

Certainly the Godhead is a glorified Family;  this would just make it a full family structure, and fits perfectly with the Patriarchal Order in which all those exalted would be sealed into one family of humanity.

 

This also puts our doctrine finally and explicitly into the category of social trinitarianism

 

Not really. It makes us have a Godhead in which one member (the Head of said Godhead) is two people. Unless of course the Holy Ghost is multiple people in which case it gets even more convoluted.

 

I am going to stick with believing in one God and let them work out the logistics.

[The Nehor]

Oh, and calling this Oak's paradigm is not fair to Elder Oaks.

 

The idea that we do not have all the keys has been taught throughout the history of the Church. He definitely did not suggest there were keys of Priestesshood.

 

The ones we know exist but don't have are resurrection, creation, and translation (the Enoch kind, not the Book of Mormon kind). That's all I know of anyways.

[Abulafia]

The only thing I would add for consideration, (I haven't watched the talk, but will do), is that many OT prophets didn't have a priesthood. They were not from that tribe. They appeared as a balancing foil to the priesthood.

Historically, prophethood was not under the auspices of priesthood. They were male and female charismatics. Jesus, himself comes within this category.

In a very real sense then, these women are acting as prophets to their generation.

[cinepro]

I've been reading the book "Lost Legacy", which details the history of the office of "Presiding Patriarch" in the Church.  Basically, it was set up by Joseph Smith as kind of an ancillary priesthood, outside of the line of authority of the FP and Q12 (there were debates with Joseph F. Smith over whether the Presiding Patriarch should be sustained before the Q12 or after).  Eventually, the office was done away with.

 

I haven't finished the book, but from what I've read so far, I would say the likelihood of there ever being some form of "Priestesshood" that runs alongside and separate from the Aaronic and Melchizedek Priesthoods to be exactly zero.

[David T]

I doubt my model is the 'right'one when it gets down to the nitty gritty. I'm not by any means tied to this. Narrative Theology is all a game anyway.

What the Paradigm Oaks shifted is the suggestion that the Keys aren't even in place to do such a thing. I don't think anyone saw that coming.

It opens up new ways of thinking, for sure, explains the 'we can't change this' rhetoric a bit more, and I just thought I'd get the speculative ball rolling

Edited April 6, 2014 by David T

[Alan]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

 

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key (of Priestesshood?) would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

 

I'm going to follow a trail of clearly speculative logic here.

 

If this is what he meant, this changes the paradigm. What would now need to be sought is not just a revealed 'go ahead', but it would suggest, if going by past prescedent, that what would be expected and needed is a manifestation of a personage bestowing the keys.

 

And if it's keys of a Priestesshood, who would bestow it? A resurrected Woman? And would it be bestowed on the President of the Church? Not if it was a Priestesshood. It would need to be a woman. But the President would need to be witness to such an event, and bear witness of it, right? Then who better/more appropriate to have a joint visionary experience and to receive such keys of a Matriarchal Priesthood than the wife of the Prophet/Patriarch - the Prophetess/Matriarch.

 

If this logic is followed, these conditions might be needed for the ordination to a distinct Priestesshood in the Church:

 

1. A Vision/Visitation Bestowal of the Keys by a Resurrected divine female messenger

2. A living wife of a living Prophet to receive the keys, and be able to distribute them. 

 

Is this what is holding back revealed knowledge of a Heavenly Mother? Is this knowledge meant to be revealed through the Keys of the Matriarchal Priesthood? Is this a part of the Restoration of All Things that we should yet look forward to?

 

I certainly didn't get that idea from Elder Oaks sermon.

[David T]

I certainly didn't get that idea from Elder Oaks sermon.

There was a lot of ideas tossed out and not firmly connected in his sermon. I took one of the strands (we don't have the Keys to ordain women) and ran down the rabbit hole with it.

Edited April 6, 2014 by David T

[Alan]

There was a lot of ideas tossed out and not firmly connected in his sermon. I took one of the strands (we don't have the Keys to ordain women) and ran down the rabbit hole with it.

 

I must have missed that. Were those words actually said or inferred?

[CV75]

One of the fascinating directions Oaks took in his talk was the idea that Joseph didn't receive all possible keys (such as those of Creation, Resurrection, etc), leading to the idea that the Apostles don't currently have keys that would allowing the ordination of women.

The suggestion is that even more than a revelation authorizing the practice would be required, that the bestowal of a New Key would be needed in order to present a new order of ordination.

I think that while he mentioned keys (creation and resurrection) that have not been restored through priesthood channels, he also indicated that these keys have nonetheless "naturally" existed and operated within this mortal sphere: He mentioned that at least some of the keys of creation operate in mortality though the creation of bodies (by women). And while he didn't mention it specifically, I can imagine that some of the keys of resurrection are operated by women as follows: The DNA contributed by male and female gametes "dies" when combined to form a new cell, but they are resurrected in the gametes eventually formed by that new body. The passage of DNA along the generations is both a form of creation and resurrection where women are the gatekeepers just as men are the drape-openers (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/power-in-the-priesthood?lang=eng).

[mfbukowski]

The only thing I would add for consideration, (I haven't watched the talk, but will do), is that many OT prophets didn't have a priesthood. They were not from that tribe. They appeared as a balancing foil to the priesthood.

Historically, prophethood was not under the auspices of priesthood. They were male and female charismatics. Jesus, himself comes within this category.

In a very real sense then, these women are acting as prophets to their generation.

This is inconsistent with LDS doctrine- it is not our belief.

The Melchizadek Priesthood can be held independently of the Aaronic. The BOM peoples operated under the authority of the M priesthood not the A.

It is certainly not our doctrine that Jesus did not hold the priesthood - indeed that is contradicted in the NT

[mfbukowski]

I think that while he mentioned keys (creation and resurrection) that have not been restored through priesthood channels, he also indicated that these keys have nonetheless "naturally" existed and operated within this mortal sphere: He mentioned that at least some of the keys of creation operate in mortality though the creation of bodies (by women). And while he didn't mention it specifically, I can imagine that some of the keys of resurrection are operated by women as follows: The DNA contributed by male and female gametes "dies" when combined to form a new cell, but they are resurrected in the gametes eventually formed by that new body. The passage of DNA along the generations is both a form of creation and resurrection where women are the gatekeepers just as men are the drape-openers (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2013/10/power-in-the-priesthood?lang=eng).

I think this is a very powerful concept- thanks for it.

One might easily see the possible "priestesshood" as naturally existing and fully implied in the temple.

Further one can see the veil ceremony itself affirming this concept and I think tying birth and resurrection together with the natural priestesshood of women.

VERY heavy stuff, and as David has suggested, quite possibly this is why this has not yet been revealed.

David, don't wimp out

This is an important idea!

[mfbukowski]

http://m.imgur.com/xq3uIU8

Is this what it will looking like a decade from now?

The question becomes WHICH priesthood he is talking about.

What priestesshood does heavenly Mother hold?

[JLHPROF]

What priestesshood does heavenly Mother hold?

 

All She needs to be a God and fulfill her responsibilities as the Mother to us all.

 

I've said it a dozen times on this site - women DO hold priesthood in the eternities and that is evidenced in the Temple, the eternities represented on earth.

What the group protesting on Temple Square is actually after is power within the Church beyond the auxiliary departments.  Not really after true priesthood or they would realize they already can have it.