Pres Uchtdorf At Church History Symposium: Our 'leaf' Is Not All There Is To Know

[canard78]

President Uchtdorf gave one of the keynote addresses at the Church History Symposium on Friday.

There's no official transcript but here's as much as I've been able to glean from 3 different online sources. I can't vouch for accuracy, it's what has been reported to have been said. I also don't know if it's in the right order. But it's still worth reading

Hopefully there will be transcripts soon. Terryl Givens and Dieter Uchtdorf are the dream team. I credit the writings of these two men (and Terryl's wife Fiona) with being a huge influence on me being able to stay in the fold.

I read this and think, OK Frederick... I'll wait another week. I'll stay a little longer.
 

(President Uchtdorf drew his theme from a quoted remark by novelist Michael Crichton: “If you don’t know history, you don’t know anything. You are a leaf that doesn’t know it is part of a tree.”)
 
“History teaches us not only about the leaves of existence. It also teaches about the twigs, branches, trunks and roots of life. And these lessons are important.”
 
(...a failing of mortal men and women) “is to assume that our ‘leaf’ is all there is — that our experience encompasses everyone else’s, that our truth is complete and universal.” 

(Also reported as: "...we have an almost irresistible desire to assume that the leaf of information we have in our possession is a representation of all there is to know.”)
 
(...the gospel of Christ that Mormonism embraces encompasses all truth), “not only the truth of what was and what is but the truth of what can and will be.”
 
 
(He related an incident of Frederick the Great, the 18th century king of Prussia. After a military defeat, many of Frederick’s soldiers scattered in confusion. A soldier brought before the king was asked why he had run away.)
 
“Because things were going badly for your majesty,” (was the reply.)
 
“Frederick reflected for a moment, then said mildly, ‘I suggest that you wait a week. Then, if things are still going badly, we will quit together,’ ”
 
“There will be times when it may appear that things are going badly for the truth of God — that the evidence of the world contradicts God’s utterances. For my part, I have learned to be patient, knowing that in the end things will work out. God’s kingdom will continue to grow. The truth will continue to flourish and spread throughout the earth. Sometimes all it takes is a little faith and a little patience.”
 
"We always need to remember that transparency and openness keep us clear of the negative side effects of secrecy or the cliché of faith-promoting rumors.  Jesus taught the Jews, “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”  Truth and transparency complement each other.
 
"Isn’t it a remarkable feeling to belong to a Church that not only embraces truth—no matter the source—but that teaches there is much more to come!  That God “will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.”
 
"As a result, we are humble about the truth we have.  We understand our knowledge is a work in progress, that the leaf we have before us is simply one microscopic snapshot—part of an infinitely vast forest of fascinating knowledge.
 
"Our little world—our small section of experience—may be an accurate and true reflection of our reality.  But, it is only an infinitesimal atom in the vast universe of what we eventually will know."

 
Do you envisage ideas from this address being reapeated at conference in a first presidency message or published in the Ensign in other forms? I hope so. I've seen President Uchtdorf sprinkle these ideas throughout talks for the last few years.

These are messages that need to be headlining on church channels.
It's exciting to see these messages growing in influence, along with the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org growing. I have hope that my children will grow up in a church with a far more frank and open attitude to history, fallibility and seeing through a glass darkly.
 
Sources:
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598190/Church-History-Symposium-examines-Mormonisms-global-reach.html
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57647487-80/church-history-lds-uchtdorf.html.csp
http://janariess.religionnews.com/2014/03/08/president-uchtdorf-urges-mormons-toward-transparency-openness-history/

Edited March 9, 2014 by canard78

[Tacenda]

President Uchtdorf gave one of the keynote addresses at the Church History Symposium on Friday.

There's no official transcript but here's as much as I've been able to glean from 3 different online sources. I can't vouch for accuracy, it's what has been reported to have been said. I also don't know if it's in the right order. But it's still worth reading

Hopefully there will be transcripts soon. Terryl Givens and Dieter Uchtdorf are the dream team. I credit the writings of these two men (and Terryl's wife Fiona) with being a huge influence on me being able to stay in the fold.

I read this and think, OK Frederick... I'll wait another week. I'll stay a little longer.

Do you envisage ideas from this address being reapeated at conference in a first presidency message or published in the Ensign in other forms? I hope so. I've seen President Uchtdorf sprinkle these ideas throughout talks for the last few years.

These are messages that need to be headlining on church channels.

It's exciting to see these messages growing in influence, along with the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org growing. I have hope that my children will grow up in a church with a far more frank and open attitude to history, fallibility and seeing through a glass darkly.

Sources:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598190/Church-History-Symposium-examines-Mormonisms-global-reach.html

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57647487-80/church-history-lds-uchtdorf.html.csp

http://janariess.religionnews.com/2014/03/08/president-uchtdorf-urges-mormons-toward-transparency-openness-history/

Hallelujah, truth might prevail.

And like a parent, that may have had a sordid past, the church wants to be truthful, yet still wants to be loved and respected for who they are now, and not let what happened in the past ruin it. So it's a fine line that must be drawn.

Thanks for sharing Canard, I've missed your posts and feel we are in the same boat unable to leave because things keep us in there.

[canard78]

Thanks Tacenda. I appreciate your contribution too. I can understand your perpetual merry-go-round of questions and answers then more questions. I post here less often because the contention that comes from doing so is not good for the soul. I read more than I post these days or none at all.

 

I think an important realisation for me is that leaders teach us that the "fullness of the gospel" does not mean a "completeness of the gospel."

 

We are all vessels, filled brim-full. LDS gospel fullness is simply the measure of truth we can receive, not a fullness of what is available to receive. And given what we have received has passed through human funnels, some of our fullness is probably not worth keeping... but I'm glad there's enough that it.

[why me]

Hallelujah, truth might prevail.

And like a parent, that may have had a sordid past, the church wants to be truthful, yet still wants to be loved and respected for who they are now, and not let what happened in the past ruin it. So it's a fine line that must be drawn.

Thanks for sharing Canard, I've missed your posts and feel we are in the same boat unable to leave because things keep us in there.

What sordid past? Can you elaborate?

[canard78]

What sordid past? Can you elaborate?

Maybe a better way of putting it would be:

We always need to remember that transparency and openness keep us clear of the negative side effects of secrecy or the cliché of faith-promoting rumors.

[Bikeemikey]

Always loved his approach!

[Bikeemikey]

Always loved his approach!

[Tacenda]

What sordid past? Can you elaborate?

Just an analogy, but maybe sordid was the wrong word. How about a past that spells controversy.

[CV75]

Do you envisage ideas from this address being reapeated at conference in a first presidency message or published in the Ensign in other forms?

 

I usually reserve comment on interpretations of public addresses until I have an opportunity to see the published version with the intended message in full context.

 

But I do think we gain a greater understanding of God's truths as we keep the covenants that have been given us by virtue of the restored keys, and this helps us view history and any other means and sources by which facts enter our consciousness in the proper light, and expands our ability to access and process these means and sources as well as the data they produce for the benefit of all. Spiritual light is the key I think to making good use of the rest of all we see, and I think what you've presented from the speakers supports that idea.

[canard78]

I usually reserve comment on interpretations of public addresses until I have an opportunity to see the published version with the intended message in full context.

But I do think we gain a greater understanding of God's truths as we keep the covenants that have been given us by virtue of the restored keys, and this helps us view history and any other means and sources by which facts enter our consciousness in the proper light, and expands our ability to access and process these means and sources as well as the data they produce for the benefit of all. Spiritual light is the key I think to making good use of the rest of all we see, and I think what you've presented from the speakers supports that idea.

This would be consistent with LDS scripture.

There are several instances where more available scripture is hinted at but available conditional on our faithfulness.

When I read Pres. Uchtdorf's talks I think he's talking about more than simply the "held-back" scripture in some heavenly vault (apparently held back until we're considered faithful enough) and instead is reminding us that there are many leaves beyond Mormonism. Truths that are on earth and available now, outside of Mormonism, that we are yet to discover/embrace.

[teddyaware]

This would be consistent with LDS scripture.

There are several instances where more available scripture is hinted at but available conditional on our faithfulness.

When I read Pres. Uchtdorf's talks I think he's talking about more than simply the "held-back" scripture in some heavenly vault (apparently held back until we're considered faithful enough) and instead is reminding us that there are many leaves beyond Mormonism. Truths that are on earth and available now, outside of Mormonism, that we are yet to discover/embrace.

According to Brigham Young, and other LDS leaders, there is no such thing as truth beyond Mormonism because Mormonism encompasses and embraces all truth; and all truth, wherever it is found, is God's truth.

"Let us remember that we never get beyond the purview of our religion—never, never! “Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this church. As for their morality many of them are morally just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this church and kingdom. Death, hell, and the grave only are outside of “Mormonism.” “Mormonism” includes all truth. There is no truth but what belongs to the gospel." (Brigham Young)

Edited March 9, 2014 by teddyaware

[canard78]

According to Brigham Young, and other LDS leaders, there is no such thing as truth beyond Mormonism because Mormonism encompasses and embraces all truth; and all truth, wherever it is found, is God's truth.

"Let us remember that we never get beyond the purview of our religion—never, never! “Mormonism,” so-called, embraces every principle pertaining to life and salvation, for time and eternity. No matter who has it. If the infidel has got truth it belongs to “Mormonism.” The truth and sound doctrine possessed by the sectarian world, and they have a great deal, all belong to this church. As for their morality many of them are morally just as good as we are. All that is good, lovely, and praiseworthy belongs to this church and kingdom. Death, hell, and the grave only are outside of “Mormonism.” “Mormonism” includes all truth. There is no truth but what belongs to the gospel." (Brigham Young)

I agree with Brigham Young. But just because it "belongs" to Mormonism doesn't mean we know about it. We have to find it first to lay claim to it.

I think that's Pres Uchtdorf's point, we shouldn't assume that the leaf of current LDS doctrine represents all of the truth that God has so far revealed.

[CMZ]

I think an important realisation for me is that leaders teach us that the "fullness of the gospel" does not mean a "completeness of the gospel."

 

Even when you have a completeness of the the gospel one has to remember that the gospel is comprised of the principles and ordinances that lead a soul to salvation. The "gospel" is not every single historical point connected with the history of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. This same gospel was revealed to Adam and Eve long before there was anything about Joseph Smith and polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, the papyri in connection with the Book of Abraham, Nephite DNA, and so forth and so on. The Church's mission is to lead souls to salvation not to flood them with historical information "so they can make up their minds." When I saw that historical information was being disseminated by many different organizations then in my mind for the Church to duplicate their efforts would be unproductive. Historical stuff gets argued endlessly here so it's naive to think loading up an investigator with volumes of historical information before they pray about the truthfulness of The Book of Mormon and the Church is somehow going to help that investigator (the logical amongst us here will recognize that I am NOT saying that information should be intentionally withheld, just that there really are FIRST principles; if an investigator asks about some hot topic issue I also feel like it's intellectually dishonest to brush their questions off, acting as though the concern has no validity or that it shouldn't be given a straightforward answer).

Edited March 9, 2014 by CMZ

[CV75]

This would be consistent with LDS scripture.

There are several instances where more available scripture is hinted at but available conditional on our faithfulness.

When I read Pres. Uchtdorf's talks I think he's talking about more than simply the "held-back" scripture in some heavenly vault (apparently held back until we're considered faithful enough) and instead is reminding us that there are many leaves beyond Mormonism. Truths that are on earth and available now, outside of Mormonism, that we are yet to discover/embrace.

Good point but I wasn’t even thinking of scripture held in reserve or additional light and knowledge that is bound to come forth from the Lord’s anointed. I was thinking in terms of what we discover individually as we remain faithful and draw near to the Lord: “Yea, blessed are they whose feet stand upon the land of Zion, who have obeyed my gospel; for they shall receive for their reward the good things of the earth, and it shall bring forth in its strength. And they shall also be crowned with blessings from above, yea, and with commandments not a few, and with revelations in their time—they that are faithful and diligent before me.” (D&C 59:2-3). I take this to mean individually as well as collectively.

 

I think BYU (as is any good education) is a good example of seeking out those truths “that are on earth and available now, outside of Mormonism, that we ["we" meaning the world] are yet to discover/embrace.” The saints have the added advantage of access to the Gift of the Holy Ghost to identify and harness these discoveries with discernment, consistent with the promises in D&C 59: 2-3.

 

If you’re focusing on history alone, there have been great advances in both methodology and technology as well as the discovery of new documentation over the past decades that will ultimately benefit the Church tremendously, which will in turn help the world discover and embrace our message as our history is better understood in proper context. It works both ways, for sure as we seek out all that is beneficial.

 

I've observed that when we hold out for the Church to catch up with some pet truth we think we have obtained, or feel a malaise or dissatisfaction with the Church until she does catch up with us, we haven't gotten that formula from D&C 59: 2-3 quite right.

[CMZ]

I've observed that when we hold out for the Church to catch up with some pet truth we think we have obtained, or feel a malaise or dissatisfaction with the Church until she does catch up with us, we haven't gotten that formula from D&C 59: 2-3 quite right.

 

Or when we think we are punishing the Church by going into a malaise because they haven't met some standard of "historical information dissemination" we have set for them, instead of seeing it as cutting ourselves off from the Spirit. So many people think activity in the Church and in the gospel means jumping through hoops for Church leaders so they can see how active we are, and feel we will only jump through those hoops if those leaders are 100% perfect in our eyes. Somehow it's hard to get through to people that living the gospel is for your own sake, not so some mortal leader can give you brownie points.

 

 

Men ought—above all things in this world—to seek for the guidance of the Holy Spirit. There is nothing as important as having the companionship of the Holy Ghost. Those who first receive this endowment and who then remain in tune with this member of the Eternal Godhead will receive a peace and a comfort that passeth all understanding; they will he guided and preserved in ways that are miraculous; they will he instructed until they receive all truth; they will sanctify their souls so as to dwell spotless before the Sinless One in his everlasting kingdom.

There is no price too high, no labor too onerous, no struggle too severe, no sacrifice too great, if out of it all we receive and enjoy the gift of the Holy Ghost. It follows that faithful people desire to know who or what the Spirit is; to know the part he plays in the plan of salvation; to know the blessings that flow from his hands; to know his relationship to the Father and the Son; to know what mortals must do to be filled with his goodness and grace. It is to these and related matters that we shall now give attention. To guide us in our search, we shall set forth the doctrines involved. They should generate the motivating power that will enable us to gain the blessings so devoutly desired.

Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, Chap. 28

 

What Elder McConkie is talking about here is available to all and totally and completely sidesteps the issue of what the institutional Church may at the moment be or not be saying on some hot topic issue. To deprive ourselves of these blessings because we don't think the Church is doing enough to tell everyone on the planet that some people don't think native Americans have Hebrew DNA is to me not the wisest course of action. It's like cutting off one of your own limbs because somebody else has a zit on their face.

Edited March 9, 2014 by CMZ

[canard78]

Mormonnewsroom has also covered it:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-history-scholars-meet-in-utah-to-discuss-the-global-reach-of-mormonism

Some repeats and some new bits.

[CV75]

Mormonnewsroom has also covered it:

http://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/church-history-scholars-meet-in-utah-to-discuss-the-global-reach-of-mormonism

Some repeats and some new bits.

Thank you for sharing that -- wow! Personally, I'm impressed with the decentralization of history preservation (though I'm sure it must be collated centrally).

 

There is another thread that discussed the value of wrapping the LDS theology into a historical narrative, and the following statement seems to apply to that line of thinking: "President Uchtdorf commended the audience for its efforts to keep a history of the Church and to encourage others to keep a record of their lives and their families. “This is a cause that is of great importance to God’s work and to His Church,” he added."

[Palerider]

President Uchtdorf gave one of the keynote addresses at the Church History Symposium on Friday.

There's no official transcript but here's as much as I've been able to glean from 3 different online sources. I can't vouch for accuracy, it's what has been reported to have been said. I also don't know if it's in the right order. But it's still worth reading

Hopefully there will be transcripts soon. Terryl Givens and Dieter Uchtdorf are the dream team. I credit the writings of these two men (and Terryl's wife Fiona) with being a huge influence on me being able to stay in the fold.

I read this and think, OK Frederick... I'll wait another week. I'll stay a little longer.

 

 

Do you envisage ideas from this address being reapeated at conference in a first presidency message or published in the Ensign in other forms? I hope so. I've seen President Uchtdorf sprinkle these ideas throughout talks for the last few years.

These are messages that need to be headlining on church channels.

It's exciting to see these messages growing in influence, along with the Gospel Topics section of LDS.org growing. I have hope that my children will grow up in a church with a far more frank and open attitude to history, fallibility and seeing through a glass darkly.

 

Sources:

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/865598190/Church-History-Symposium-examines-Mormonisms-global-reach.html

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/lifestyle/57647487-80/church-history-lds-uchtdorf.html.csp

http://janariess.religionnews.com/2014/03/08/president-uchtdorf-urges-mormons-toward-transparency-openness-history/

 

 

Sounds like someone desperate to calm people who are thinking of jumping ship.........

 

 

"Shut up! Shut up! I am busy. I am working Cape Race!"

 

John Phillips, Senior wire operator in reply to Cyril Evans’ wireless operator for the Californian who gave the final ice warning for Titanic.

[teddyaware]

Sounds like someone desperate to calm people who are thinking of jumping ship.........

 

 

"Shut up! Shut up! I am busy. I am working Cape Race!"

 

John Phillips, Senior wire operator in reply to Cyril Evans’ wireless operator for the Californian who gave the final ice warning for Titanic.

Another virtuous, lovely and praiseworthy comment from Palerider.

[katherine the great]

Just an analogy, but maybe sordid was the wrong word. How about a past that spells controversy.

Or perhaps a past that is viewed through our modern sensibilities and not in context of time and place.  

[Storm Rider]

This thread is a bit confusing to me. Both Joseph and Brigham were absolutely clear that we did not hold all truth - that we held enough truth for exaltation, yes.  We claim all truth as our own wherever we find it and that we need to search out of the best books.  How do we get from there to thinking that we have complete truth i.e. that there is no truth outside of the Church?  Why would any member think like that?  

 

It is interesting to me that so much needs to be repeated constantly and consistently.  We all do not have hears to hear at the same time. Finally, something clicks and then we stand amazed at a truth that has been taught for decades and decades, but we just never "heard" it.  

 

How much more important is the lesson that we need to be patient and not shy away from God and his gospel?  Too often we are ready to put all our faith in the arm of flesh as we march off quietly to hell because we think man knows all things; there is no longer any need to listen to that still small voice any longer.  

[canard78]

Sounds like someone desperate to calm people who are thinking of jumping ship.........

"Shut up! Shut up! I am busy. I am working Cape Race!"

John Phillips, Senior wire operator in reply to Cyril Evans’ wireless operator for the Californian who gave the final ice warning for Titanic.

I did have a wry smile at the "if it's still going badly in a week, I'll leave with you," comment.

Really President Uchtdorf? Now that would be a surprise! Not one that would be a pleasant one either. He is a genuine "leaning post" for me.

[canard78]

This thread is a bit confusing to me. Both Joseph and Brigham were absolutely clear that we did not hold all truth - that we held enough truth for exaltation, yes. We claim all truth as our own wherever we find it and that we need to search out of the best books. How do we get from there to thinking that we have complete truth i.e. that there is no truth outside of the Church? Why would any member think like that?

It is interesting to me that so much needs to be repeated constantly and consistently. We all do not have hears to hear at the same time. Finally, something clicks and then we stand amazed at a truth that has been taught for decades and decades, but we just never "heard" it.

How much more important is the lesson that we need to be patient and not shy away from God and his gospel? Too often we are ready to put all our faith in the arm of flesh as we march off quietly to hell because we think man knows all things; there is no longer any need to listen to that still small voice any longer.

I heard the primary president say the following recently in sacrament meeting:

"It's so good to know we have the truth when the rest of the world is following satan."

President Uchtdorf's message of universalism needs to be heard.

[CMZ]

I heard the primary president say the following recently in sacrament meeting:

"It's so good to know we have the truth when the rest of the world is following satan."

 

[Calm]

I heard the primary president say the following recently in sacrament meeting:

"It's so good to know we have the truth when the rest of the world is following satan."

.

I wonder at times if some people really think about what they are saying.