Liturgical Time/days/seasons In Mormonism

[MiserereNobis]

The current correlation philosophy and objective of the Church is that the religion be lived "on the ground" essentially the same way in all countries and places.  Thus, if we officially began to observe a liturgical calendar, it would need to be the same in all countries and places and fairly uniform in the manner of celebration.

 

 

I wonder if this will change as the LDS church gets bigger.  It is easier to have uniformity in a small church than in a large one.

 

The Catholic Church has a universal calendar for all areas, but then also allows various regions to add/change it as needed for regional needs.

[David T]

A friend and I are reading and studying Jesus of Nazareth: Holy Week: From the Entrance Into Jerusalem to the Resurrection by Pope Benedict XVI. This book packs a powerful punch and is very humbling. Lent is a season of penance and deep reflection for me. I use it to further intensify my relationship with God.

 

I really enjoy Benedict XVI's writings. While I don't always come to the same conclusions he does, he has some fascinating insights, especially as symbolism is concerned. I really enjoy his Jesus of Nazareth books. I have all three of them. I also read the Holy Week one during the Lenten season a year or so ago!

[Damien the Leper]

Actually, the Church of Rome does recognize the Orthodox claim to Apostolic succession and authority -- this is why all the Sacraments in Orthodoxy are considered valid.  Rome does not recognize Anglican or Lutheran, however.

 

The problems between Rome and Orthodoxy are mainly ecclesiastical nature (the relationship of the bishops, the primacy and supremacy of Peter/Rome, etc) more so than theological.  The Eastern Catholic Churches are a good example of this.  They are basically identical to the Orthodox Churches in liturgy and theology, except that they also accept the Pope as the supreme Bishop of the Church.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood Mark Staples. I thought he had said that Rome saw the Orthodox churches in error. I'll have to go back and look. Thanks for the correction.

 

Here in Phoenix, we have a Byzantine church that is in communion with Rome. I have never crossed myself so many times! I loved it. It was high mass with incense, a processional from the iconostasis and Communion was done facing the altar. I love orthodoxy.

 

I also went Mater Misericordiae, which is the Latin church in the Phoenix Diocese. That was intense too. Couldn't even hear Fr. Terra speaking the Eucharist. Prior to the service we prayed the Rosary. It just warmed my heart.

[pogi]

But Lent, no, Lent is not a time for partying. It is a time of fasting, prayer and alms giving.The Church will not even perform weddings or baptisms during Lent (unless a specific case warrants permission to do so). So on the flip side, people who move to Utah from a "Catholic"country like the Philippines, it takes a little explaination to why the community is not observing Lent and acting like every day is a day to invite us to parties. Particulary Good Friday, where Catholics from the Philippines would expect everything to be closed, no one working, and everyone at Church. But the opposite is, everything is open and your office mates plan pizza parties, on a day of fasting! Maybe it is an indication of the spiritual desert that is Utah,

Different cultures do different things. Catholics have solemn Holy days and seasons, but we aren't solemn all of the time. Celebrations are integral to our faith, the largest celebration being Easter Sunday.

 

I don't disagree that Catholics have solemn Holy days and seasons.  As I have indicated, I am a bit envious of some of these traditions.  My observation in the Philippines however, was that the vast majority of Catholics were only Catholic by tradition rather than by observance or practice.  I never saw a day where businesses were closed in the Philippines.  People worked year round (at least in the region I served in), even on Good Friday and the Sabbath.  Fasting was a totally radical concept to them, and were blown away that we go without food for 24 hours once each month.  If there were people who fasted on Good Friday, I never met them.  There were very few people who attended church on Good Friday, even less on the Sabbath, mostly just Easter.  These people were starving for a more consistent and constant spirituality in their lives as evidenced by the huge conversion rates to religions that practice their faith daily and weekly, and who expect regular activity and devotion.  

 

The big event in the Philippines on Good Friday was a live crucifixion (mostly performed in a region that I did not serve in), where multiple men would be nailed to a cross for a period of time.  Others would walk down the street whipping themselves on the back until they were bloodied, some would walk barefoot on the burning pavement in never ending processions.  In exchange, these men would receive a complete remission of sins.  I don't doubt the sincerity of these men, but my observation was that the rest of the population viewed it like an intriguing side-show event rather than some Holy and spiritual display.  It was a free show for them.  Then they would all go play at the beach for the rest of the day and laugh about how crazy and daring these men are. 

 

I have no problem with different cultural expressions of faith.  I actually wish our church had more diversity.  My observation in the Philippines was that there was a whole lot of culture and very little spirituality.  Don't get me wrong, I respect and love your religious seasons and holidays, I just didn't see any substantive practice of it like their should be.  The Philippines and South American Catholics are experiencing high conversion rates to other religions.  I truly believe that this could be slowed if the Catholic church began expecting more daily and weekly observance of their faith rather than a seasonal cultural binge.  They truly seemed to be starving for more spiritual observance, so when they found a community of observers, they happily joined that new culture of daily spirituality.

 

 Maybe it is an indication of the spiritual desert that is Utah,

 

I think you mean dessert?     

[Calm]

I am often surprised at how few people know what Mardi Gras is actually celebrating, or what "Carnival" (carne, meat) is all about. I'm glad your daughter served you pancakes on the proper day

Any particular reason it is Russian? Did you serve a mission in post-Soviet Russia? Or just interested in Russian Orthodoxy?

This brings up another question (for any). In countries where the Eastern Orthodox calendar dictates Easter, do Mormons celebrate Easter at that time or do they follow the Western calendar?

We lived in Russia for a short time while my husband taught there. Edited March 10, 2014 by calmoriah

[saemo]

 

 

I don't disagree that Catholics have solemn Holy days and seasons.  As I have indicated, I am a bit envious of some of these traditions.  My observation in the Philippines however, was that the vast majority of Catholics were only Catholic by tradition rather than by observance or practice.  I never saw a day where businesses were closed in the Philippines.  People worked year round (at least in the region I served in), even on Good Friday and the Sabbath.  Fasting was a totally radical concept to them, and were blown away that we go without food for 24 hours once each month.  If there were people who fasted on Good Friday, I never met them.  There were very few people who attended church on Good Friday, even less on the Sabbath, mostly just Easter.  These people were starving for a more consistent and constant spirituality in their lives as evidenced by the huge conversion rates to religions that practice their faith daily and weekly, and who expect regular activity and devotion.  

 

Yes, I've heard this from LDS missionaries before. One fellow I know, who was a LDS missionary in Mexico, and is now Catholic, says people who he baptized into Mormonism thought Mormons were a version of Catholicism, recognized no difference in the understanding of God, and pretty much continued to believe as Catholics, but participated as Mormons. 

 

 

 

The big event in the Philippines on Good Friday was a live crucifixion (mostly performed in a region that I did not serve in), where multiple men would be nailed to a cross for a period of time.  Others would walk down the street whipping themselves on the back until they were bloodied, some would walk barefoot on the burning pavement in never ending processions.  In exchange, these men would receive a complete remission of sins.  I don't doubt the sincerity of these men, but my observation was that the rest of the population viewed it like an intriguing side-show event rather than some Holy and spiritual display.  It was a free show for them.  Then they would all go play at the beach for the rest of the day and laugh about how crazy and daring these men are. 

 

I have no problem with different cultural expressions of faith.  I actually wish our church had more diversity.  My observation in the Philippines was that there was a whole lot of culture and very little spirituality.  Don't get me wrong, I respect and love your religious seasons and holidays, I just didn't see any substantive practice of it like their should be.  The Philippines and South American Catholics are experiencing high conversion rates to other religions.  I truly believe that this could be slowed if the Catholic church began expecting more daily and weekly observance of their faith rather than a seasonal cultural binge.  They truly seemed to be starving for more spiritual observance, so when they found a community of observers, they happily joined that new culture of daily spirituality.

 

 

I think you mean dessert?  

 

No one is forced to do anything in Catholicism. We live freely, and worship freely. Daily Mass is there, for those who choose to participate. Joining another religion, does what, exactly? From what I hear, retention rates are dismally low, and understanding of the Mormon faith is even lower. I don't understand the point to such an endeavor. All it does is confuse people, and make them more likely, in the long run, to be attracted to secularism.

Edited March 10, 2014 by saemo

[The Nehor]

I have decided to give up humility for Lent this year. I love this holiday. Last year I gave up self-control.

[saemo]

I have decided to give up humility for Lent this year. I love this holiday. Last year I gave up self-control.

I believe it was last year, Steven Colbert gave up being Catholic for Lent. :-D

[pogi]

 

Joining another religion, does what, exactly? 

 

 

The best way to learn is through experience.  I know some missionaries that would love to speak with you if you really want to know what it does. 

 

No one is forced to do anything in Catholicism. We live freely, and worship freely. Daily Mass is there, for those who choose to participate. Joining another religion, does what, exactly? From what I hear, retention rates are dismally low, and understanding of the Mormon faith is even lower. I don't understand the point to such an endeavor. All it does is confuse people, and make them more likely, in the long run, to be attracted to secularism.

 

Secularism is almost non-existent in the region I served.  I think the cultural difference between Catholicism and Mormonism in the Philippines would be equivalent to being a child of parents who expect almost nothing of you, and being a part of a family who believes in you and plays an intimate role in your life and expects you to accomplish good things and follow the rules.  No one is forced to do anything in Mormonism either.  We simply play a more active role as we are invited to.  We know our members names and notice when they are not at church.  Studies show that parents who expect more from their children, see much better results from their children in school etc.  I believe the same applies to spirituality.

http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2014/02/09/blaming-parents-for-poor-schools/parents-need-to-set-standards-for-children

 

Joseph Smith taught that “a religion that does not require the sacrifice of all things never has the power sufficient to produce the faith necessary unto life and salvation.” This is the culture of Mormonism.  We expect them to participate and not just casually observe from a distance.  This is the only way that we can develop that internal devotion and observance to God and faith.

 

I found that generally speaking, Filipinos were a lot like children with little to no structure and craved this structure and direction and wanted to be more active, they just needed somebody to ask them and assist them.  I only wish that there were more Catholic missionaries out there to strengthen the fold, they are hungry for it.  I would fully support and encourage such a movement.  Any growth in spirituality is good growth. 

 

It is true that retention rates in the Philippines are very low comparative to other areas, but compared to Catholic retention in these same areas, our retention rates are remarkably good.  Partly to blame for these comparatively low retention rates is the Catholic culture there.  Old habits die hard.  When you are used to going to church once a year, never making any donations, never fasting, never actively participating in church service, yes it can be overwhelming for new members who have no experience with this.  But as they start to make the shift, boy do you see the light illuminate in their eyes!  That is why we serve missions, we assist in making a stagnant spirituality and faith in God active again.  It is miraculous to see!  You have to keep in mind also that we consider less active members anybody who misses church 3 times in a row.  That would be considered a hyper-active Catholic member in the Philippines.  

 

We reach out and try to nurture and care for less-active members back to spiritual health and activity.  We don't forget about our members, just like we don't forget about our children.  Because of this, a majority of less-active members return to church activity later in life according to this research:

 

 

 

Yes, I've heard this from LDS missionaries before. One fellow I know, who was a LDS missionary in Mexico, and is now Catholic, says people who he baptized into Mormonism thought Mormons were a version of Catholicism, recognized no difference in the understanding of God, and pretty much continued to believe as Catholics, but participated as Mormons. 

 

I never heard of a Philippine convert thinking it was a version of Catholicism, maybe that is unique to Mexico, I don't know.  It is true that the leadership is floundering a bit and struggling to implement standard programs such as home-teaching, but you have to keep in mind that the church is still extremely new in the Philippines.  The Philippines was dedicated for missionary service on April 28, 1961.  It is only 53 years old!  And yet there are 675,166 members.  That is remarkable!  It is no wonder that we are struggling to keep up with the growth.  Not even one generation of membership has passed away.  We don't have the solid foundation that other areas have, but we do have a white harvest with itching ears.  I think that Catholics and Mormons alike would benefit from a Catholic movement to spiritually rescue its members there. 

Edited March 10, 2014 by pogi

[MiserereNobis]

I think that Catholics and Mormons alike would benefit from a Catholic movement to spiritually rescue its members there. 

 

I absolutely agree.  Unfortunately, because of its long influence and deep cultural ties, it is too easy for the Catholic Church to be just a cultural trapping in many people's lives.  I've heard Mormons make that comment about Utah Mormonism (I don't mean to offend those Utah Mormons here -- just repeating what I've heard).  Multiple that by 1000 and you've got the issues the Catholic Church deals with.  Cultural spirituality can give awesome roots to an individual, but it can also leave them thinking that their relationship to God is just based on a few activities a year.

 

That idea is emphatically NOT taught by the Roman Catholic Church.  God should be first, and daily (daily Mass), and hourly (the Divine Office, or the Liturgy of the Hours).

 

For me, religious orders exemplify this the best.  We've got super-cloistered communities who spend their daily hours praying.  We've got mendicant communities who spend their daily hours not only praying, but also in poverty working with the poor.  We've got teaching orders and preaching orders and everything in between.  Catholic spirituality is a HUGE banquet, but unfortunately many Catholics only avail themselves of the fast food and leave the best dishes alone, because the best dishes require sacrifice and time and commitment.

 

I'm sure this is a problem in many (most? all?) religions, but I wanted to acknowledge it in Catholicism and offer my hopes and prayers that it changes.  I myself miss out on so much Holy Mother Church has to offer because of my own selfishness, sinfulness, and lack of desire.  May we all, Catholic and LDS, grow closer to God.

 

And let's not forget about good ol' Rory (3DOP), who is on an Ignatian Retreat this week and is absolutely availing himself of some deep and beautiful spirituality that the Church has to offer.

[mfbukowski]

Catholicism is not a homogenous culture. Every country, and even regions within countries, will have specific feast days that are not emphasized in other countries or regions.

There are several people in my parish who are originally from the Philippines, who are people of deep faith and devotion to Christ. But yes, I hear from Mormon converts at times that the free flow of wine at Catholic gatherings is alarming to them. Others feel more relaxed not having to worry about what other people are drinking. I can see both POV.

But Lent, no, Lent is not a time for partying. It is a time of fasting, prayer and alms giving.The Church will not even perform weddings or baptisms during Lent (unless a specific case warrants permission to do so). So on the flip side, people who move to Utah from a "Catholic"country like the Philippines, it takes a little explaination to why the community is not observing Lent and acting like every day is a day to invite us to parties. Particulary Good Friday, where Catholics from the Philippines would expect everything to be closed, no one working, and everyone at Church. But the opposite is, everything is open and your office mates plan pizza parties, on a day of fasting! Maybe it is an indication of the spiritual desert that is Utah,

Different cultures do different things. Catholics have solemn Holy days and seasons, but we aren't solemn all of the time. Celebrations are integral to our faith, the largest celebration being Easter Sunday.

That's nothing.

We are even worse on Ramadan.  I bet even sanctimonious Catholics are as well.  (No, I know most Catholics would never say such a thing...)

[mfbukowski]

I wonder if this will change as the LDS church gets bigger.  It is easier to have uniformity in a small church than in a large one.

 

The Catholic Church has a universal calendar for all areas, but then also allows various regions to add/change it as needed for regional needs.

On the other hand, communication is not instantaneous, world wide.  "Regional needs" are rapidly disappearing.  The world itself is now much "smaller" than it ever was.

 

Golly I bet you could even read this message in Borneo. 

[mfbukowski]

Perhaps I misunderstood Mark Staples. I thought he had said that Rome saw the Orthodox churches in error. I'll have to go back and look. Thanks for the correction.

 

Here in Phoenix, we have a Byzantine church that is in communion with Rome. I have never crossed myself so many times! I loved it. It was high mass with incense, a processional from the iconostasis and Communion was done facing the altar. I love orthodoxy.

 

I also went Mater Misericordiae, which is the Latin church in the Phoenix Diocese. That was intense too. Couldn't even hear Fr. Terra speaking the Eucharist. Prior to the service we prayed the Rosary. It just warmed my heart.

I find it fascinating that in Orthodox and Byzantine churches the faithful are separated from the altar by a veil or "screen" as it is called.  Yes, it has a huge "window" in it, but it is still there.

 

In the Roman rite the veil became the communion rail- which separates the faithful from the sanctuary, but of course you can see over it.

 

In medieval times and earlier, the newly baptized were not allowed into the cathedral to participate in the full mass, they worshiped in a separate building called the "Baptistry" and participated in the "Mass of the Catechumens" which was the term for the newly baptized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_of_the_Catechumens

 

There are extant many fine examples of Baptistries outside cathedrals- we might see them as similar to how the chapel relates to the temple.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptistery

Edited March 11, 2014 by mfbukowski

[MiserereNobis]

I really enjoy Benedict XVI's writings. While I don't always come to the same conclusions he does, he has some fascinating insights, especially as symbolism is concerned. I really enjoy his Jesus of Nazareth books. I have all three of them. I also read the Holy Week one during the Lenten season a year or so ago!

 

I think it's great that you are reading our Pope Emeritus's writings.  He was quite the theologian.  With your knowledge of Catholic theology, which LDS book might you recommend for a Catholic?

 

ETA:  I think you know this already, but I'll just add it.  I'm not looking for a missionary or conversion book, but a book that would help me deepen my understanding of LDS theology while at the same time bring me to closer to God.  It sounds like Pope Benedict's writings did that for you

Edited March 11, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[MiserereNobis]

I find it fascinating that in Orthodox and Byzantine churches the faithful are separated from the altar by a veil or "screen" as it is called.  Yes, it has a huge "window" in it, but it is still there.

 

In the Roman rite the veil became the communion rail- which separates the faithful from the sanctuary, but of course you can see over it.

 

In medieval times and earlier, the newly baptized were not allowed into the cathedral to participate in the full mass, they worshiped in a separate building called the "Baptistry" and participated in the "Mass of the Catechumens" which was the term for the newly baptized.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_of_the_Catechumens

 

There are extant many fine examples of Baptistries outside cathedrals- we might see them as similar to how the chapel relates to the temple.  The "leaning tower of Pisa is in fact a Baptistry as is the famous Baptistry in Florence

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptistery

 

I started to respond to your post and bring up the Mass of the Catechumens, but then I saw that you updated yours to include.  Sneaky, sly editor you

 

I remember a while ago you posted an essay/article comparing the Mass of the Catechumens to LDS Sunday services, and the Mass of the Faithful to LDS temples.  Perhaps you could repost the link for those reading this thread.  Thanks!

[MiserereNobis]

deleted -- duplicate (oops!)

Edited March 11, 2014 by MiserereNobis

[saemo]

That's nothing.

We are even worse on Ramadan. I bet even sanctimonious Catholics are as well. (No, I know most Catholics would never say such a thing...)

Yeah right, it is a good thing those Mormon missionaries show up to save those poor, poor, Catholics in spiritual starvation. But I'm the one being sanctimonious when I defend such a idea as that! Edited March 11, 2014 by saemo

[Damien the Leper]

I find it fascinating that in Orthodox and Byzantine churches the faithful are separated from the altar by a veil or "screen" as it is called.  Yes, it has a huge "window" in it, but it is still there. In the Roman rite the veil became the communion rail- which separates the faithful from the sanctuary, but of course you can see over it. In medieval times and earlier, the newly baptized were not allowed into the cathedral to participate in the full mass, they worshiped in a separate building called the "Baptistry" and participated in the "Mass of the Catechumens" which was the term for the newly baptized.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_of_the_Catechumens There are extant many fine examples of Baptistries outside cathedrals- we might see them as similar to how the chapel relates to the temple.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptistery

At the Byzantine church I attended, everyone could see into the iconostasis.

[mfbukowski]

 

I think it's great that you are reading our Pope Emeritus's writings.  He was quite the theologian.  With your knowledge of Catholic theology, which LDS book might you recommend for a Catholic?

 

ETA:  I think you know this already, but I'll just add it.  I'm not looking for a missionary or conversion book, but a book that would help me deepen my understanding of LDS theology while at the same time bring me to closer to God.  It sounds like Pope Benedict's writings did that for you

 

I've got one for you

http://gregkofford.com/products/fire-on-the-horizon

 

10 bucks on amazon for the kindle edition- and you can download a free reader to read it on you pc if you like

Edited March 11, 2014 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

I started to respond to your post and bring up the Mass of the Catechumens, but then I saw that you updated yours to include.  Sneaky, sly editor you

 

I remember a while ago you posted an essay/article comparing the Mass of the Catechumens to LDS Sunday services, and the Mass of the Faithful to LDS temples.  Perhaps you could repost the link for those reading this thread.  Thanks!

Here you go.

https://ojs.lib.byu.edu/spc/index.php/BYUStudies/article/view/5185

Incredible article.