The Lost 116 Pages

[cdowis]

 

 

Which would have required a master forger for what would have undoubtedly been an intensely scrutinized document.

 

Why did you not answer my questions on this issue?

 

 

What credibility would these (most likely known) enemies of the church have if they couldn't produce the original document?

 

You are either incredibly naive or ignorant of history of the time.   The point is that the phony manuscript **IS** the "original" document.  Now answer my questions on how that is disproved.

 

 

Who said anything about a scientific expert or the FBI and CIA for that matter?  Unless you're an expert it is very difficult to pass off full pages of forged writings, even to the untrained eye.  If you were an early Saint, who would you believe:  Joseph Smith and one of the three witnesses Martin Harris, or enemies of the church?

 

 

Many at the time thought Lucy was involved, including Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith.

 

"...The manuscript has never been found; and there is no doubt but Mrs. Harris took it from the drawer, with the view of retaining it until another translation should be given, then to alter the original translation, for the purpose of showing a discrepancy between them, and thus make the whole appear to be a deception..."

 

Whether Lucy Harris or Obediah Dogberry took the manuscript is besides the point.  

 

ThIs is exactly the point.  Dogberry had the opportunity, the motive, and the resources to create the phony manuscript and to publish it in his newspaper.  People believe what they read, even today.  If he publishes it, it must be true.  And how would it be proved otherwise, with the technology of the time.  

 

What's important is that it was taken and that we know why.  If the express purpose of the theft was to deceive, why then were no alterations made?  Simply change the name of Nephi's brother Sam and a few other details and voila, you have a forgery! 

 

 

Ummm...the prophet Joseph Smith?  He was able to convince thousands of early Saints that he saw God and Jesus Christ, that he translated an ancient book of scripture through the power of God, and restored Christ's church, but you think this guy would have led to his unraveling?

 

 

Well, I know I must be getting somewhere when Cdowis starts throwing out unsubstantiated accusations...or is that par for the course?

 

Are you going to answer my questions, or just blow hot air.

 

[cdowis]

Would there have been some that left or didn't join had the altered Book of Lehi appeared?  Likely, but I don't see it as being a major stumbling block.  As I pointed out earlier it would have been very difficult to pull it off convincingly.  Even if they managed to do so it would be the enemy's word against Joseph and Martin Harris' word.  If you were a Saint or friendly towards them you would most likely believe Joseph, if you were anti-Mormon, then you would have probably remained so.  

 

 

Sigh.

 

 What saints?  How many converts did JS have at the time?

 

Since you do not know the basics of church history, the BOM has not even been published at this time.  There was no church, no missionaries, no "saints".  JS basically stood alone surrounded by enemies on every side.

Edited February 25, 2014 by cdowis

[rodheadlee]

Last time I checked...investigators are not told this story...most learn it long after they've been baptized

That's not true. When I took the lessons I was told the story of the 116 lost pages.

[CV75]

I just don't see this as being the stumbling block it was made out to be.

Your observation and opinion and God's may differ ("by small and simple things are great things brought to pass").

[omni]

Why did you not answer my questions on this issue?

 

 

Could you kindly specify which question?  However, since you brought up the topic of not answering questions...when are you going to answer mine (that I asked twice) about why these conspiring men never actually went through with their plans to alter the original document?  We have canonized scripture (D&C 10) stating the reason for the theft, yet when given the chance, the alterations were never made.

 

You are either incredibly naive or ignorant of history of the time.   The point is that the phony manuscript **IS** the "original" document.  Now answer my questions on how that is disproved.

 

 

 

Apparently my ignorance is surpassed only by your lack of reading comprehension.  When I wrote "What credibility would these (most likely known) enemies of the church have if they couldn't produce the original document?"  The original document I was referring to was the altered document (which would have been perceived as the original by those who were deceived).  A master forger would be needed in order to "copy the 116 pages on a new document and make the changes on a second document".  Whether this would have occurred by the forger visually copying Harris' writing style or tracing the document.  Try tracing 116 pages of cursive writing using an 1830 pen written on foolscap and tell me how convincing it looks.

 

ThIs is exactly the point.  Dogberry had the opportunity, the motive, and the resources to create the phony manuscript and to publish it in his newspaper.  

 

 

 

Then why didn't he!?!  You are only proving my point that it was likely destroyed.  If it had not been destroyed then Dogberry with his "opportunity, motive and resources" would have published it in his newspaper.

 

People believe what they read, even today.  If he publishes it, it must be true.  And how would it be proved otherwise, with the technology of the time.  

 

 

Would it have convinced some people sure, but on a long list of difficult issues I think it would have been pretty far down the list.  For comparison let's look at the Spaulding Manuscript.  We have several witnesses with signed affidavits stating that Joseph plagiarized the BoM from the Spaulding Manuscript.  This theory was then published in Mormonism Unveiled, and was well known at the time.  Did it have any significant negative effect on the church?  This church grew rapidly despite what could have been a significant blow and in fact even today most critics today don't give the theory much credence.

 

What saints?  How many converts did JS have at the time?

 

Since you do not know the basics of church history, the BOM has not even been published at this time.  There was no church, no missionaries, no "saints".  JS basically stood alone surrounded by enemies on every side.

 

 

I never specified a time period.  Had the enemies produced the altered 116 pages I was suggesting that the story would "still be in the air" for years or even decades and the saints would had to choose who to believe.   Once again look at my example of the Spaulding Manuscript.

 

Are you going to answer my questions, or just blow hot air.

 

 

Re-read my original post in response.  I answered each one of your questions, unfortunately the same can't be said for you.

Edited February 25, 2014 by omni

[Anteojito]

That's not true. When I took the lessons I was told the story of the 116 lost pages.

I did not know about the 116 pages until after i joined the church and was preparing for my mission. At that point, I accepted the church's version of it and did not give it much thought. On my mission it was not part of the established lesson plan

[Anteojito]

It should be noted that, for example, Martin Harris’ reported that JS used the Nephite interpreters (the Urim and Thummim) and then later switched to using the seer stone "for convenience”.

Brigham H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1965), 1:128–129

 

The Church also addressed this issue long ago.  For example:

 

Russell M. Nelson, "A Treasured Testament," Ensign (July 1993), 61

Richard Lloyd Anderson, “By the Gift and Power of God”, Ensign (Sept. 1977)

 

And I and many others have taught the seer stone in a hat from time to in Gospel Doctrine class. Thus, the seer stone criticism has no intellectually honest value.

That is not my point. If Joseph translated (or pick the word you want to use) the BOM with the seer stones, and since we do not have the plates, what was the purpose of going through all the trouble to make then in the first place?

[cdowis]

I will answer your question, if it really needed an answer.

 

They probably made the changes but did not publish their fake document for an obvious reason ==>> JS did not fall into their trap.  There was no second translation of the 116 pages.  The point of the fake was to show the differences with the second translation, in order to discredit JS, to destroy him,  *****AND THERE WAS NO SECOND TRANSLATION.****

 

Without the re-translation, what would be the point of publishing the fake?

 

Are you really unable to figure that out yourself?  I can see you are an intelligent person but I can only conclude that the antis have poisoned your mind.  You can't even see the obvious.

 

Now back to my question:  who would conduct the investigation of the fake document, especially if there is only one copy available (the fake)?    Perhaps one of the (hidden) conspirators was highly educated and would volunteer for the task.  

 

I guess that did not occur to you either. 

Edited February 25, 2014 by cdowis

[BCSpace]

That is not my point. If Joseph translated (or pick the word you want to use) the BOM with the seer stones, and since we do not have the plates, what was the purpose of going through all the trouble to make then in the first place?

 

Consider also that there is no need to anoint anyone's head with oil to affect a healing blessing as the oil does nothing.  I don't agree though, that the plates were unnecessary.

[Anteojito]

Consider also that there is no need to anoint anyone's head with oil to affect a healing blessing as the oil does nothing.  I don't agree though, that the plates were unnecessary.

 

Then what purpose did they serve?

[omni]

I will answer your question, if it really needed an answer.

 

They probably made the changes but did not publish their fake document for an obvious reason ==>> JS did not fall into their trap.  There was no second translation of the 116 pages.  The point of the fake was to show the differences with the second translation, in order to discredit JS, to destroy him,  *****AND THERE WAS NO SECOND TRANSLATION.****

 

Without the re-translation, what would be the point of publishing the fake?

 

 

 

No second translation was needed in order for the wicked men's plan to work.  According to revealed scripture in D&C 10 the men's original plan was:

 

 

 16 And then, behold, they say and think in their hearts—We will see if God has given him power to translate; if so, he will also give him power again;

 17 And if God giveth him power again, or if he translates again, or, in other words, if he bringeth forth the same words, behold, we have the same with us, and we have altered them;

 18 Therefore they will not agree, and we will say that he has lied in his words, and that he has no ^agift, and that he has no power;

 19 Therefore we will destroy him, and also the work; and we will do this that we may not be ashamed in the end, and that we may get ^aglory of the world.

 

 

 

Once they realized that Joseph wasn't going to attempt to retranslate the Book of Lehi, they could have just as easily accomplished their goal of showing that "he (JS) has lied in his words, and that he has no gifts, and that he has no power" by simply making changes to details that would have been included in both the large and small set of plates.  Changing the names of minor characters or places that would have been easy for Joseph to forget would have done the trick.  I already mentioned this twice here in post 8:

 

 

If it was the plan of Lucy Harris and her conspirators to alter the original text why did they not do so once Joseph published the BoM?  They could have simply changed the names of some of the minor characters or details and "proven" the Joseph was a "con" because his original had different details.  

 

 

 

and here in post 19:

 

 

If the express purpose of the theft was to deceive, why then were no alterations made?  Simply change the name of Nephi's brother Sam and a few other details and voila, you have a forgery! 

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by omni

[omni]

 

Now back to my question:  who would conduct the investigation of the fake document, especially if there is only one copy available (the fake)?    Perhaps one of the (hidden) conspirators was highly educated and would volunteer for the task.  

 

I guess that did not occur to you either. 

 

I already answered this in post #19.  Simply compare it to Harris' other writings.  Or as we are consistently admonished to do, ask God.

Edited February 25, 2014 by omni

[cdowis]

del 

Edited February 26, 2014 by cdowis

[rodheadlee]

I did not know about the 116 pages until after i joined the church and was preparing for my mission. At that point, I accepted the church's version of it and did not give it much thought. On my mission it was not part of the established lesson plan

I took the lessons in 1982. You know, when they were hiding stuff.

[DoC Ponder2]

Wow, the 116 pages. OK to begin with, I just happened to land on this site when it was linked to something I was following about the latest "issue" in the LDS church... namely the new "Lords Morality" discussion.

 

I'd never given the "lost pages" much thought when I was still  buying in to Mormonism. There are so many issues which for me, make the whole thing appear a sham that the lost pages just didn't hit my radar.  I"d bet that for those who choose to believe in the churches teachings this is just regarded as another of the "Mysteries of the Kingdom" but for those of us who do no believe it's just another of the convenient "coincidences"   that seem to abound. I'm personally betting the church, which by many accounts is unraveling at the seams lately will have lost all of whatever "credibility" it once had within 10-15 years. All that will be left, if anything, will be the financial shell.

 

That said, while the church is currently worth billions....there have been entire countries that have gone out of existence. What's a small church in comparison.?

[Calm]

"I'm personally betting the church, which by many accounts is unraveling at the seams lately will have lost all of whatever "credibility" it once had within 10-15 years. All that will be left, if anything, will be the financial shell"

And I have been hearing that kind of stuff for about 4 decades now....bet others have heard it for longer.

[drums12]

Wow, the 116 pages. OK to begin with, I just happened to land on this site when it was linked to something I was following about the latest "issue" in the LDS church... namely the new "Lords Morality" discussion.

 

I'd never given the "lost pages" much thought when I was still  buying in to Mormonism. There are so many issues which for me, make the whole thing appear a sham that the lost pages just didn't hit my radar.  I"d bet that for those who choose to believe in the churches teachings this is just regarded as another of the "Mysteries of the Kingdom" but for those of us who do no believe it's just another of the convenient "coincidences"   that seem to abound. I'm personally betting the church, which by many accounts is unraveling at the seams lately will have lost all of whatever "credibility" it once had within 10-15 years. All that will be left, if anything, will be the financial shell.

 

That said, while the church is currently worth billions....there have been entire countries that have gone out of existence. What's a small church in comparison.?

CFR showing the "accounts" that the Church is "unraveling at the seams."  You seem quite sure of the fall of Mormonism.  I believe there were other critics who were just as sure in 1844 when Joseph Smith was killed.

[DoC Ponder2]

OH I'm sure there have always been those predicting the fall of Mormonism however it seems that lately there has been quite the "falling away".  I know, I know... I heard the 15 million member proclamation...however I have also read accounts, from GA's, that the numbers are faltering in the US. The place that seems to be showing the most robust "growth" is an are in Africa which has the lowest % of internet users.  The internet = information.

[Danzo]

OH I'm sure there have always been those predicting the fall of Mormonism however it seems that lately there has been quite the "falling away".  I know, I know... I heard the 15 million member proclamation...however I have also read accounts, from GA's, that the numbers are faltering in the US. The place that seems to be showing the most robust "growth" is an are in Africa which has the lowest % of internet users.  The internet = information.

Do share with us these accounts from GAs,

 

Please.

[Tacenda]

"I'm personally betting the church, which by many accounts is unraveling at the seams lately will have lost all of whatever "credibility" it once had within 10-15 years. All that will be left, if anything, will be the financial shell"

And I have been hearing that kind of stuff for about 4 decades now....bet others have heard it for longer.

I heard from a TBM the other day, that in the D&C it says the church will go down...not becauae it's not true, but the people in it take it down. I don't know the scriptures well enough to know where it says that, are they wrong?

[Calm]

Should of asked them for section and verse.

[Tacenda]

Should of asked them for section and verse.

Don't hate me, it was a recent Shawn McRaney show with the LDS guy who tells it like it is. You'd like him. And usually I don't have conversations with people about the church except for on this board. ETA: Doug Bundy is his name. Edited February 26, 2014 by Tacenda

[Calm]

And his name?

[The Nehor]

"I'm personally betting the church, which by many accounts is unraveling at the seams lately will have lost all of whatever "credibility" it once had within 10-15 years. All that will be left, if anything, will be the financial shell"

And I have been hearing that kind of stuff for about 4 decades now....bet others have heard it for longer.

We have been told of our impending demise since Joseph the huckster started the whole thing. We are still here. If God had not promised us survival until Christ returns I probably would predict our demise too. Hugh Nibley once remarked that the gospel has about a snowball's chance in hell and I agree with the assessment. Every other dispensation collapsed. Seems odd that ours should live on. Note that I am not complaining, just surprised.

[MichelleD]

Wow, the 116 pages. OK to begin with, I just happened to land on this site when it was linked to something I was following about the latest "issue" in the LDS church... namely the new "Lords Morality" discussion.

What is the "Lords Morality" discussion?