The Lost 116 Pages

[phaedrus ut]

 The inspired solution of course was to produce an entirely new publication that no one could convincingly compare with either an alternate or admittedly stolen manuscript, or their published versions.

 

Except of course Dogberry had access to the manuscript of the replacement publication just like some are speculating that he did with the 116 pages with the same malicious opportunity.  Instead he just published the pages of the "Gold Bible".

 

I'm not saying that Dogberry or any speculative thief of the 116 believed in Joseph's translating abilities.  But the offered motivation that the thief would expect the same translation but they would offered a modified one as proof doesn't make any sense because that presupposes they expect the same document. 

 

Now if someone thought he was making things up and took the 116 pages to see if he can do it again.  That seems logical to me.

 

Phaedrus

[CV75]

Except of course Dogberry had access to the manuscript of the replacement publication just like some are speculating that he did with the 116 pages with the same malicious opportunity.  Instead he just published the pages of the "Gold Bible".

 

I'm not saying that Dogberry or any speculative thief of the 116 believed in Joseph's translating abilities.  But the offered motivation that the thief would expect the same translation but they would offered a modified one as proof doesn't make any sense because that presupposes they expect the same document. 

 

Now if someone thought he was making things up and took the 116 pages to see if he can do it again.  That seems logical to me.

 

Phaedrus

I agree that Cole/Dogberry did not beleive in Joseph's gifts.

 

If he were part of the conspiracy laid out in D&C 10, by the time he was publishing the "Gold Bible" in January 1830 (some 16-18 months after the 116 pages were lost in 1828), there were only two documents controlled by Smith (the new, original manuscript--starting with the small plate translation--and the printer's manuscript. Cole only had access to the latter, and only portions as they became available in the shop. But he was caught red-handed and as a result of arbitration had to stop his project for copyright violation.

 

Since the only documents to compare by that time were the available portions of the printer's manuscript with the 116 lost pages (if Cole had them) and the altered manuscript (if Cole had it), there was really nothing to undermine the entire 1829 manuscript. I'm speculating that Cole published 1 Nephi supposing it would be debunked by others who never came forward with an altered version once they realized they would only be comparing apples and oranges. If they didn't trust Smith, they would assume he would deny authorship of anythign of teh original 116 pages they might have had remaining in hand.

 

I can see the short-term interruption of the plan as Jospeh's loss of his gift (leaving nothing left to compare for over a year); the mid-term interruption as any loss of momentum/organization among a larger number of conspirators after a few months; and the long-term interruption of the remainig threat as explained in D&C 10.

[canard78]

Considering the desire to believe something negative about Joseph and the work that many possessed I don't think much more than a manuscript and Joseph's admission that he wrote a text like it would have been needed.  I don't think most would have been demanding that he prove it was a forgery, it would just have been passed around prior to the BoM itself to demonstrate that Joseph wasn't actually inspired.****

 

I highly doubt that the only reason for the second set was to cover for Joseph's mistake.  I see a lot of value for Lehi and his descendants to have a more spiritual account to use in religious settings as opposed to the political/historical account kept for the rulers.

 

***I see that cdowis has already made this point.

 

***Except you were able to remain polite while making it. Cdowis has a the impressive ability to be consistently rude.

[Calm]

You are making me blush.

[cdowis]

 

 

CVS seems to have already handled this, so deleting my response.

 

You are banned from the thread for your earlier flaming. If we get another report of over the top insults you are risking your board privileges.

[knowone]

As a believer the story of the lost 116 pages never bothered me, but now as someone who no longer believes I see a number of problems with it.  I say this as opposed to other difficult issues such as blacks and priesthood in which I've always struggled and had to put it on my "shelf".   For the non-believers did your views change on this subject as you went through your faith transition?  For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

 

doesnt bother me at all.  i asume they will be found in the future & blow peoples minds away.  like behind a picture frame or something, by an ancient manuscript collector not affiliated with the church.  it seems to me the book of mormon is being proved correct every year i live on this earth.  wait until they start doing some real archeology work in south america.  then no one will be able to contradict the book of mormon because the evidence will continue to pile as the years progress.

[Anteojito]

doesnt bother me at all.  i asume they will be found in the future & blow peoples minds away.  like behind a picture frame or something, by an ancient manuscript collector not affiliated with the church.  it seems to me the book of mormon is being proved correct every year i live on this earth.  wait until they start doing some real archeology work in south america.  then no one will be able to contradict the book of mormon because the evidence will continue to pile as the years progress.

" wait until they start doing some real archeology work in south america. " 

 

So you are saying that they have not been doing real archeological work in South America up till now?

[knowone]

" wait until they start doing some real archeology work in south america. " 

 

So you are saying that they have not been doing real archeological work in South America up till now?

 

barely nothing has been done!  im half american, half bolivian.  i went on a mission to ecuador.  those two points plus ive traveled all over south america as a tourist.  i can state for a fact nothing of worth has been done in south america.  if this intrests you, check out the book 1491:

 

http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/1400032059

 

also of note if you want to check out the tayos cave info, that could be found here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cueva_de_los_Tayos

 

of personal note, check out the bolivian ruins of tiwanaku, bolivia.  the image on the left is a visitor carrying two records.  the image in the midddle is the white God showing marks in his hands:

 

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-hp3hKw8uHA8/UMf4GbguN3I/AAAAAAAAD14/5BNS8kjtQjE/s1600-h/Tiwanaku%252520virachocha-statues%25255B4%25255D.jpg

 

i dont know what the far right image is of.  it looks mayan so dosnt belong in this image really.

 

basically, only stuff thats easy acccesible has been looked at.  mostly ancient alien weirdos...but of note is that the lds community, who are 'peculiar peoples' are now being supported by modern day scientists...except with the wrong conclusion (they conclude that alien beings are responsible for ancient peoples & not by the Lord & His angels)!  nevertheless, its still supporting the stories of the book of mormon.

 

there are parts in brazil & specifically beni bolivia that have not even been touched.  the mounds in beni bolivia, are similar to the city in mexico prior to the spanish conquest known as teochtioclan as well as similar to the mound builders in north america.  in other words, the Lord taught all these compleetely different peoples how to thrive in various climates up & down all 3 continents of the americas.

 

they once discovered a trash mound in rome & comparing it to one of the hundreds in boilivia, the peoples in bolivia, before the inka, are said to have been 20 times larger than the apex of the roman civilization.  blows ones mind.

Edited March 4, 2014 by knowone

[knowone]

also, in my opinion the canaris in ecuador were some of the last nephites.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca%C3%B1ari

 

of note is how they were pretty much destroyed by the inka just prior to the spanish conquest & during.  their language is lost, their records are lost etc etc.  if you look at some of their cities in ecuador, specificcally the ruins of yacubinay - it barely has an overgrown path leading to these ruins.  & one has to be on the path for 2 hours to get there.  ive done it! 

 

this, to me, has great importance for book of mormon scholars in the future, but north americans really have no idea how difficult it is to trek in mountainous jungle.  imagine the amazone jungle on the mountains of tibet!!!  you got crags of rocks all over, with jungle & vines everywhere.  not even mentioning the animal life.  very very inhospitable.

 

another important concept is how rich the land is with ore.  we know how the spanish raped ancient bolivia & its said they could have built a bridge back to spain made of silver & gold.  the raping continues as chile stole bolivias copper deposits & bolivia continues to be one of the poorest nations in the world.

 

in ecuador, we once went on a day trip with my zone to river zamora.  just walking along the river banks a lot of us found flecks of gold & rocks with gold in it...just on the surface!  again, its just difficult to get to locations in mountainous jungle unless you are in the know with the people & area.

Edited March 4, 2014 by knowone

[Anteojito]

also, in my opinion the canaris in ecuador were some of the last nephites.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ca%C3%B1ari

 

of note is how they were pretty much destroyed by the inka just prior to the spanish conquest & during.  their language is lost, their records are lost etc etc.  if you look at some of their cities in ecuador, specificcally the ruins of yacubinay - it barely has an overgrown path leading to these ruins.  & one has to be on the path for 2 hours to get there.  ive done it! 

 

this, to me, has great importance for book of mormon scholars in the future, but north americans really have no idea how difficult it is to trek in mountainous jungle.  imagine the amazone jungle on the mountains of tibet!!!  you got crags of rocks all over, with jungle & vines everywhere.  not even mentioning the animal life.  very very inhospitable.

 

another important concept is how rich the land is with ore.  we know how the spanish raped ancient bolivia & its said they could have built a bridge back to spain made of silver & gold.  the raping continues as chile stole bolivias copper deposits & bolivia continues to be one of the poorest nations in the world.

 

in ecuador, we once went on a day trip with my zone to river zamora.  just walking along the river banks a lot of us found flecks of gold & rocks with gold in it...just on the surface!  again, its just difficult to get to locations in mountainous jungle unless you are in the know with the people & are

 

barely nothing has been done!  im half american, half bolivian.  i went on a mission to ecuador.  those two points plus ive traveled all over south america as a tourist.  i can state for a fact nothing of worth has been done in south america.  if this intrests you, check out the book 1491:

 

http://www.amazon.com/1491-Revelations-Americas-Before-Columbus/dp/1400032059

 

also of note if you want to check out the tayos cave info, that could be found here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cueva_de_los_Tayos

 

of personal note, check out the bolivian ruins of tiwanaku, bolivia.  the image on the left is a visitor carrying two records.  the image in the midddle is the white God showing marks in his hands:

 

http://lh3.ggpht.com/-hp3hKw8uHA8/UMf4GbguN3I/AAAAAAAAD14/5BNS8kjtQjE/s1600-h/Tiwanaku%252520virachocha-statues%25255B4%25255D.jpg

 

i dont know what the far right image is of.  it looks mayan so dosnt belong in this image really.

 

basically, only stuff thats easy acccesible has been looked at.  mostly ancient alien weirdos...but of note is that the lds community, who are 'peculiar peoples' are now being supported by modern day scientists...except with the wrong conclusion (they conclude that alien beings are responsible for ancient peoples & not by the Lord & His angels)!  nevertheless, its still supporting the stories of the book of mormon.

 

there are parts in brazil & specifically beni bolivia that have not even been touched.  the mounds in beni bolivia, are similar to the city in mexico prior to the spanish conquest known as teochtioclan as well as similar to the mound builders in north america.  in other words, the Lord taught all these compleetely different peoples how to thrive in various climates up & down all 3 continents of the americas.

 

they once discovered a trash mound in rome & comparing it to one of the hundreds in boilivia, the peoples in bolivia, before the inka, are said to have been 20 times larger than the apex of the roman civilization.  blows ones mind.

While I may agree that there is a lot more work to do, I think it is a huge overstatement that no "real" work has been done. for example:

 

Lithic/Paleoindian (before 8000 BCE)

Cueva de las Manos, Argentina

Cuz Cuz, Chile

Bandelier National Monument, New Mexico, USA

Meadowcroft Rock Shelter, Pennsylvania, USA

Monte Verde, Chile

Pilauco Bajo, Chile

St. Mary Reservoir, Alberta, Canada

Archaic (8000-1000 BCE)

Chan-Chan, Chile

Cuz Cuz, Chile

Jiskairumoko, Rio Ilave, Peru

Meadowcroft Rock Shelter, Pennsylvania, USA

Tiawanaku, Bolivia

Formative (1000 BCE-250/500 CE)

Acaray, Huaura River, Peru

Altar de Sacrificios, Guatemala

Cara Sucia, El Salvador

Chaco Culture National Historical Park, New Mexico, USA

Chiripa, Bolivia

Cuello, Belize

Cuz Cuz, Chile

El Mirador, Guatemala

La Venta, Mexico

Nakbe, Guatemala

El Tintal, Guatemala

Quelepa, El Salvador

Snaketown, Arizona, USA

Tiawanaku, Bolivia

Takalik Abaj, Guatemala

Tulor, Chile

Classic (250/500-1200 CE)

Acaray, Huaura River, Peru

Aguateca, Guatemala

Bandelier National Monument, New Mexico, USA

Bonampak, Mexico

Cahokia, Illinois, USA

Calakmul, Mexico

Cancuen, Guatemala

Cara Sucia, El Salvador

Chichen Itza, Mexico

Chiripa, Bolivia

Copán, Honduras

Cuz Cuz, Chile

Dos Pilas, Guatemala

El Tajín, Mexico

Ixlu, Guatemala

Kaminaljuyu, Guatemala

Machaquila, Guatemala

Monte Albán, Mexico

Motul de San José, Guatemala

Palenque, Mexico

Pukara de Quitor, Chile

Pucará de Tilcara, Argentina

Quelepa, El Salvador

Quiriguá, Guatemala

Seibal, Guatemala

Snaketown, Arizona, USA

Takalik Abaj, Guatemala

Tamarindito, Guatemala

Teotihuacan, Mexico

Tiawanaku, Bolivia

Tikal, Guatemala

Toniná, Mexico

Tulor, Chile

Uaxactun, Guatemala

Yaxchilan, Mexico

Yaxha, Guatemala

Zaculeu

Post-Classic (1200-1900 CE)

Acaray, Huaura River, Peru

Cahokia, Illinois, USA

Cuz Cuz, Chile

Gila Cliff Dwellings National Monument, New Mexico, USA

Huaca de Chena, Chile

Incallajta, Bolivia

Iximche, Guatemala

Machu Picchu, Peru

Mixco Viejo, Guatemala

Mocha Island, Chile

Pucara del Cerro La Muralla, Chile

Pukara de La Compañia, Chile

Q'umarkaj, Guatemala

Santa Cecilia Acatitlan, Mexico

Snaketown, Arizona, USA

Tenayuca, Mexico

Tenochtitlan, Mexico

Tlatelolco, Mexico

Topoxte, Guatemala

Yagul, Mexico

Zaculeu, Guatemala

 

 

[knowone]

if you notice, all of those places listed in south america are in easy to reach arid regions.  all those places in chile, peru & bolivia are complete deserts.  one can drive for miles & stumble upon things. 

 

i guess i should have specified, that no real work has been done in %98 of sites that are hard to reach.

 

now imagine all the south american sites you listed, & times that by about 100.  these are the ones i am talking about.

 

another point is the time periods you listed.  those time periods were cohesive in 1975, but now modern day archeologists have thrown those out the door because of the discoveries found in the yucatan since 1975.  they are finding buildings with different blocks from different periods in the same building.  but again, this is in central america.  central america has about 30% sites studied to a %50 threshhold.

 

again, sites in south america have barely been touched.  at a rate of about %2 known sites to a threshhold of about %5.

Edited March 4, 2014 by knowone

[Anteojito]

if you notice, all of those places listed in south america are in easy to reach arid regions.  all those places in chile, peru & bolivia are complete deserts.  one can drive for miles & stumble upon things. 

 

i guess i should have specified, that no real work has been done in %98 of sites that are hard to reach.

 

now imagine all the south american sites you listed, & times that by about 100.  these are the ones i am talking about.

 

another point is the time periods you listed.  those time periods were cohesive in 1975, but now modern day archeologists have thrown those out the door because of the discoveries found in the yucatan since 1975.  they are finding buildings with different blocks from different periods in the same building.  but again, this is in central america.  central america has about 30% sites studied to a %50 threshhold.

 

again, sites in south america have barely been touched.  at a rate of about %2 known sites to a threshhold of about %5.

I think if you talked to the guys who found the sites, many of them would tell you that they were not easy to find. As far as arid regions, take a look as the list again, there are a lot of sites in central america hardly arid regions.