The Lost 116 Pages

[omni]

As a believer the story of the lost 116 pages never bothered me, but now as someone who no longer believes I see a number of problems with it.  I say this as opposed to other difficult issues such as blacks and priesthood in which I've always struggled and had to put it on my "shelf".   For the non-believers did your views change on this subject as you went through your faith transition?  For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

[The Nehor]

The story makes sense to me. Joseph was on an accelerated course to spiritual maturity and needed these blows. It is sometimes hard to remember that in the early days of the Church they were all very new at this. In many ways I was more seasoned in the gospel when I went on my mission then Joseph was when he became prophet and organized the church. Theophanies and angelic ministrations are wonderful things but it takes more to forge a saint. I see his running off to find buried treasure to save the church as another lesson in a similar vein.

[guerreiro9]

As a believer the story of the lost 116 pages never bothered me, but now as someone who no longer believes I see a number of problems with it. I say this as opposed to other difficult issues such as blacks and priesthood in which I've always struggled and had to put it on my "shelf". For the non-believers did your views change on this subject as you went through your faith transition? For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

What bothers you about it?

-guerreiro9

[Palerider]

As a believer the story of the lost 116 pages never bothered me, but now as someone who no longer believes I see a number of problems with it.  I say this as opposed to other difficult issues such as blacks and priesthood in which I've always struggled and had to put it on my "shelf".   For the non-believers did your views change on this subject as you went through your faith transition?  For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

 

At the time I was a believer it didn't bother me, but I did sort of think that assuming someone "out there" was going to alter the manuscript so that it wouldn't read exactly as the 116 lost pages was kind of......odd?

 

Later on as I began to have serious doubts, it (the whole explanation aspect) just came across as someone desperate to not have to "re-translate" because he wouldn't remember his story line or phraseology 100% correctly.

 

Anyone would have been easily able to see if the 116 pages had been tampered with if they had been produced to make Joseph appear as an imposter.

 

It also amazes me how "convenient" the smaller plates were and how specifically and omnisciently the Lord provided them for Joseph's rescue and yet He steadfastly refuses to tell us something as simple as where the real Hill Cumorah is located.

 

Boggles the mind.......

Edited February 24, 2014 by Palerider

[CV75]

For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

It's really a non-issue for me, though I understand that for some it is.

 

What if 300 pages, or the whole manuscript were lost? What if only pages 50-100 were lost? Or 116 pages after the small plates were inserted (and would Joseph have been commanded to not bother translating them)? What if the sealed portion contained alternatives prepared to cover any of these and other scenarios and contingencies? What if the sealed portion included Jacob's and/or Joseph's (or any other prophets') alternatives to Nephi's small plates?

[cinepro]

As a believer the story of the lost 116 pages never bothered me, but now as someone who no longer believes I see a number of problems with it.  I say this as opposed to other difficult issues such as blacks and priesthood in which I've always struggled and had to put it on my "shelf".   For the non-believers did your views change on this subject as you went through your faith transition?  For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

 

There's a lot of things I believe in the LDS Church, so I still consider myself a believer.  But I have to admit I find the story of the Lost 116 pages to be totally absurd.  When I think about the canonized explanation for the loss of the pages, I can only hear the voice of Stan from South Park when, after hearing the story, he asked:

 

"...Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?"

 

 

And in light of the method in which the plates were prepared, stored and translated, I find the idea of a "sealed portion" to also be absurd.

Edited February 25, 2014 by cinepro

[Tiki]

There's a lot of things I believe in the LDS Church, so I still consider myself a believer.  But I have to admit I find the story of the Lost 116 pages to be totally absurd.  When I think about the canonized explanation for the loss of the pages, I can only hear the voice of Stan from South Park when, after hearing the story, he asked:

 

"...Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?"

 

 

And in light of the method in which the plates were prepared, stored and translated, I find the idea of a "sealed portion" to also be absurd.

 

The voice of South Park in your head versus the still small voice - may be the real issue here. LOL.

[omni]

What bothers you about it?

-guerreiro9

 

We are told that the reason Joseph didn't simply retranslate the Book of Lehi was because evil and conspiring men would make changes to the original in an attempt to deceive the public and potential converts.  First of all how would these men have gone about making the changes?  Was there a reliable way to erase ink during the time period without showing any trace of the original text?  Is it likely that these men would have been able to produce a forger of the quality needed to convincingly recreate significant portions of the text?  Let's say for the sake of argument they were able to erase ink or produce a master forger, why would that matter?  We are repeatedly taught to base our testimonies on the witness of the Spirit and not on the arm of the flesh.  

 

If it was the plan of Lucy Harris and her conspirators to alter the original text why did they not do so once Joseph published the BoM?  They could have simply changed the names of some of the minor characters or details and "proven" the Joseph was a "con" because his original had different details.  

 

What if Martin Harris' wife really did destroy the original manuscript as many believe she did?  There would have been no need for God to command Lehi and his family to go through the incredible effort of creating a second set up plates out of one of the rarest metals on Earth.  In short, if I may be blunt, the explanation Joseph gave is exactly the sort of thing one would expect if he had created the BoM himself.

Edited February 25, 2014 by omni

[Anteojito]

There's a lot of things I believe in the LDS Church, so I still consider myself a believer.  But I have to admit I find the story of the Lost 116 pages to be totally absurd.  When I think about the canonized explanation for the loss of the pages, I can only hear the voice of Stan from South Park when, after hearing the story, he asked:

 

"...Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?"

 

 

And in light of the method in which the plates were prepared, stored and translated, I find the idea of a "sealed portion" to also be absurd.

In light of that idea that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a peep stone in a hat, there was no need to for the plates at all. If I were one of the ancient prophets that had to go out find gold, melt and pound it into super thin plates and then painstakingly engrave my message on them and then keep them safe only to find out that they sat on a table with a cloth over them while someone sat with their head in a hat, I think I would be a little miffed 

[The Nehor]

"...Wait. Mormons actually know this story and they still believe Joseph Smith was a prophet?"

 

"Of course. The story proves it."

[Johnnie Cake]

As a believer the story of the lost 116 pages never bothered me, but now as someone who no longer believes I see a number of problems with it.  I say this as opposed to other difficult issues such as blacks and priesthood in which I've always struggled and had to put it on my "shelf".   For the non-believers did your views change on this subject as you went through your faith transition?  For believers, is this a "shelf" issue you struggle with or does the whole story seem perfectly logical?

The only reason the story is even accepted by believers is because it was taught to us from our youth on. We were inoculated otherwise we would find the story and Joseph's explanation for why he couldn't duplicate the lost 116 pages absurd. This is why those who are hearing the explanation for the first time are incredulous that anyone actually buys the story.

[cdowis]

We are told that the reason Joseph didn't simply retranslate the Book of Lehi was because evil and conspiring men would make changes to the original in an attempt to deceive the public and potential converts.

 

That is correct.

 

 First of all how would these men have gone about making the changes?

 

Very simple:

Copy the 116 pages on another manuscript and make the changes on the second manuscript.  After JS retranslated the text, they would published their forgery in their own newspaper and compare it with the text from JS.

 

 

 

 Was there a reliable way to erase ink during the time period without showing any trace of the original text?

 

No need to erase anything.

 

 Is it likely that these men would have been able to produce a forger of the quality needed to convincingly recreate significant portions of the text?

 

They will publish it in their newspaper.  And who is going to do a handwriting comparison, which was unknown at the time;  But they don't have to produce the phoney document at all.  Once the phoney text is published, the public will be convinced that JS was a fake, and no investigation at all.

 

Tell us who will call an investigation, who will do a scientific examination of the handwriting since the original pages are not available.  The whole notion of a formal investigation using modern scientific techniques is absurd.  Is JS going to contact the FBI, the CIA, the police to investigate and do a detailed handwriting analysis?  Handwriting analysis was not developed until almost a hundred years later.

 

And even if they had the technology, what are they going to use for a comparison? 

 

What complete nonsense.  This is 1830, not the 20th century!!!

 

snip sarcasm

 

If it was the plan of Lucy Harris and her conspirators to alter the original text why did they not do so once Joseph published the BoM?  They could have simply changed the names of some of the minor characters or details and "proven" the Joseph was a "con" because his original had different details.  

 

I guess you really haven't done any research on the incident.  It is very unlikely that Lucy had anything to do with it.  It is very possible that Obediah Dogberry was involved.  He certainly had the resources, and showed his hostility towards the BOM.  He would simply publish the phoney text and who could contradict him?

 

What if Martin Harris' wife really did destroy the original manuscript as many believe she did?  There would have been no need for God to command Lehi and his family to go through the incredible effort of creating a second set up plates out of one of the rarest metals on Earth.

 

I guess you have never actually read the BOM, where it says that gold was very abundant.

 

 In short, if I may be blunt, the explanation Joseph gave is exactly the sort of thing one would expect if he had created the BoM himself.

 

Let me be blunt.  You are ignorant of the historical facts, and full of baloney.

Edited February 25, 2014 by cdowis

[cdowis]

The only reason the story is even accepted by believers is because it was taught to us from our youth on. We were inoculated otherwise we would find the story and Joseph's explanation for why he couldn't duplicate the lost 116 pages absurd. This is why those who are hearing the explanation for the first time are incredulous that anyone actually buys the story.

 

Johnnie Cake, the antimormons have poisoned your brain with their garbage.  

Edited February 25, 2014 by cdowis

[Calm]

 Is it likely that these men would have been able to produce a forger of the quality needed to convincingly recreate significant portions of the text? 

Considering the desire to believe something negative about Joseph and the work that many possessed I don't think much more than a manuscript and Joseph's admission that he wrote a text like it would have been needed.  I don't think most would have been demanding that he prove it was a forgery, it would just have been passed around prior to the BoM itself to demonstrate that Joseph wasn't actually inspired.****

 

There would have been no need for God to command Lehi and his family to go through the incredible effort of creating a second set up plates out of one of the rarest metals on Earth.

 

I highly doubt that the only reason for the second set was to cover for Joseph's mistake.  I see a lot of value for Lehi and his descendants to have a more spiritual account to use in religious settings as opposed to the political/historical account kept for the rulers.

 

***I see that cdowis has already made this point.

Edited February 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Calm]

The only reason the story is even accepted by believers is because it was taught to us from our youth on. We were inoculated otherwise we would find the story and Joseph's explanation for why he couldn't duplicate the lost 116 pages absurd. This is why those who are hearing the explanation for the first time are incredulous that anyone actually buys the story.

So how to explain investigators accepting it and converting?

Edited February 25, 2014 by calmoriah

[Johnnie Cake]

Johnnie Cake, the antimormons have poisoned your brain with their garbage.

LOL...what exactly about my comment was garbage...It was an observation and an opinion

[Johnnie Cake]

So how to explain investigators accepting it and converting?

Last time I checked...investigators are not told this story...most learn it long after they've been baptized

[Tacenda]

Last time I checked...investigators are not told this story...most learn it long after they've been baptized

If true, then add it to the long list. Maybe that's why the church started "Preach My Gospel". And did away with all those flipchart lessons. Maybe they might do well to bring that concept back or integrate the two.

[omni]

I guess you have never actually read the BOM, where it says that gold was very abundant.

 

 

Actually I have, a number of times in fact.  Abundant or not, it still would have taken an immense effort for someone living more than 2000 years earlier just so God could teach Joseph a lesson.

 

 

Very simple:

Copy the 116 pages on another manuscript and make the changes on the second manuscript.  After JS retranslated the text, they would published their forgery in their own newspaper and compare it with the text from JS.

 

 

 

 

Which would have required a master forger for what would have undoubtedly been an intensely scrutinized document.

 

But they don't have to produce the phoney document at all.  Once the phoney text is published, the public will be convinced that JS was a fake, and no investigation at all.

 

 

What credibility would these (most likely known) enemies of the church have if they couldn't produce the original document?

 

Tell us who will call an investigation, who will do a scientific examination of the handwriting since the original pages are not available.  The whole notion of a formal investigation using modern scientific techniques is absurd.  Is JS going to contact the FBI, the CIA, the police to investigate and do a detailed handwriting analysis?  Handwriting analysis was not developed until almost a hundred years later.

 

 

Who said anything about a scientific expert or the FBI and CIA for that matter?  Unless you're an expert it is very difficult to pass off full pages of forged writings, even to the untrained eye.  If you were an early Saint, who would you believe:  Joseph Smith and one of the three witnesses Martin Harris, or enemies of the church?

 

I guess you really haven't done any research on the incident.  It is very unlikely that Lucy had anything to do with it.  It is very possible that Obediah Dogberry was involved.  He certainly had the resources, and showed his hostility towards the BOM.  

 

 

Many at the time thought Lucy was involved, including Joseph's mother, Lucy Mack Smith.

 

"...The manuscript has never been found; and there is no doubt but Mrs. Harris took it from the drawer, with the view of retaining it until another translation should be given, then to alter the original translation, for the purpose of showing a discrepancy between them, and thus make the whole appear to be a deception..."

 

Whether Lucy Harris or Obediah Dogberry took the manuscript is besides the point.  What's important is that it was taken and that we know why.  If the express purpose of the theft was to deceive, why then were no alterations made?  Simply change the name of Nephi's brother Sam and a few other details and voila, you have a forgery! 

 

He would simply publish the phoney text and who could contradict him?

 

 

Ummm...the prophet Joseph Smith?  He was able to convince thousands of early Saints that he saw God and Jesus Christ, that he translated an ancient book of scripture through the power of God, and restored Christ's church, but you think this guy would have led to his unraveling?

 

Let me be blunt.  You are ignorant of the historical facts, and full of baloney.

 

 

Well, I know I must be getting somewhere when Cdowis starts throwing out unsubstantiated accusations...or is that par for the course?

Edited February 25, 2014 by omni

[Calm]

Last time I checked...investigators are not told this story...most learn it long after they've been baptized

But you stated "it was taught to us from our youth on" which seems at the very least to leave out the possibility of older converts believing it.

[Cold Steel]

No, of course this is not a "shelf" issue. Why should it be? The only people it should bother are those who never arrive at a spiritual witness of the Book of Mormon. I'm amazed that many people in the church gain the spiritual witness, then continue searching, as if constantly needing reenforcement was somehow a virtue of open-mindedness. When Moses drew a line and forced the Israelites to decide once and for all if they were for the Lord, or if they were against Him, the people made their decision and then the Lord made His.
 

When people are baptized, they are supposed to have made that decision, regardless of age. And later, if they change their mind, they can do that, too. But they will not have the benefit of the Holy Spirit unless they seek it with humility.
 

While buzzing around the Internet today, I came across this address by Daniel Peterson, which was exceptional. If you need evidence (and note I didn't use the term "proof"), you would do well to listen to it. But if evidences are the foundation of your faith, you still stand a chance that it will crumble. Dan's address wasn't intended to convert, but to move people to consider the very real possibility that the gospel is what it claims to be. If it doesn't move you to your knees, your foundation may not be of sand, but it will not be a foundation of stone.
 

One thing to consider about the 116 pages is this: Martin Harris was a shrewd businessman. His wife was convinced that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and it's clear she was mean-spirited and duplicitious. She warned Martin many times that Smith was a con man who was trying to get his fortune, which she herself coveted (and with good reason). But Harris was one of the three witnesses of the Book of Mormon. If Joseph had tried to draw Martin into a conspiracy, Martin's first thought would have been, "Lucy was right! Smith is a scoundrel!" Instead, read his words after the event. He was like a child who had been given a candied apple. He subsequently dumped every cent he had into the printing of the Book of Mormon and his wife left him!
 

If I were a con man, the LAST person I would try to rope into a conspiracy is the man who was financing the printing of my ficticious book. Harris also was a religious man who understood that  a church cannot be vindicated on Earth unless there was a direct line of communication between God and his prophets. The same was true with Parley and Orson Pratt. They were good, decent, honorable men who were searching for the truth.
 

So believe as you will, and listen to Dr. Peterson's outstanding address. If you plant doubt in your heart, you will reap doubt; if you plant faith and prayer, you will reap the truth.

That's the way I see it.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL-NXToiksQ

Edited February 25, 2014 by Cold Steel

[omni]

Considering the desire to believe something negative about Joseph and the work that many possessed I don't think much more than a manuscript and Joseph's admission that he wrote a text like it would have been needed.  I don't think most would have been demanding that he prove it was a forgery, it would just have been passed around prior to the BoM itself to demonstrate that Joseph wasn't actually inspired.****

 

I highly doubt that the only reason for the second set was to cover for Joseph's mistake.  I see a lot of value for Lehi and his descendants to have a more spiritual account to use in religious settings as opposed to the political/historical account kept for the rulers.

 

***I see that cdowis has already made this point.

 

Would there have been some that left or didn't join had the altered Book of Lehi appeared?  Likely, but I don't see it as being a major stumbling block.  As I pointed out earlier it would have been very difficult to pull it off convincingly.  Even if they managed to do so it would be the enemy's word against Joseph and Martin Harris' word.  If you were a Saint or friendly towards them you would most likely believe Joseph, if you were anti-Mormon, then you would have probably remained so.  

 

I just don't see this as being the stumbling block it was made out to be.  Look at the failure of the Kirtland Bank and apostasy that followed.  Where's the divine intervention there?  IMO, the recovery of the lost papyri is much more damaging to the claims of the church than any would-be alterations to the lost 116 pages, yet no divine intervention in their discovery.  

[cinepro]

 

 

Let me be blunt.  You are ignorant of the historical facts, and full of baloney.

 

You've pretty much made the point of how absurd that plan was, but I'll add a few additional points.

 

First, we have to ask what Lucy Harris wanted.  Her husband was spending his time and money on the Book of Mormon project.  As his wife, do you think she wanted him to be spending more or less time and money with Joseph Smith?  Think about that for a second. 

 

The obvious answer is that she wanted Martin to spend less time and money with Joseph.  That being the case, look at the "D&C 10" version of the plan.  It requires Joseph and Martin to go back and start over.  So we are supposed to believe that Lucy created a plan that would cause her husband to lose the time and money he had invested to that point!  Then, after he had spent more time and money recreating the 116 Pages and finishing the book, Lucy and her accomplices would finish their plan and ensure the financial failure of the enterprise.  Again, how is this logical for the wife of Martin Harris (who is effectively a co-investor in the project)?

 

It should also be pointed out that the D&C 10 theory presupposes a "tight" translation process.  If Joseph were using a loose translation method, then the plan would fail out of course, since the translation would naturally be different anyway.  It's too bad Joseph didn't have access to today's apologetic thinking on the subject of translation, since that theory would have really come in handy at that point.

 

It should also be pointed out that a few weeks before the Book of Mormon was published, a local newspaper began publishing excerpts from the book, and Joseph stopped them by enforcing his copyright.  This same method could have been used to counter the theorized publication by Lucy Harris of the "altered" pages.  Joseph had recourse beyond the Lord needing to prepare an alternate set of plates centuries before, and having that set of plates summarize an alternate history of the lost 116 pages and dovetail right into the lost portion.

Edited February 25, 2014 by cinepro

[BCSpace]

In light of that idea that Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon with a peep stone in a hat, there was no need to for the plates at all. If I were one of the ancient prophets that had to go out find gold, melt and pound it into super thin plates and then painstakingly engrave my message on them and then keep them safe only to find out that they sat on a table with a cloth over them while someone sat with their head in a hat, I think I would be a little miffed 

 

It should be noted that, for example, Martin Harris’ reported that JS used the Nephite interpreters (the Urim and Thummim) and then later switched to using the seer stone "for convenience”.

Brigham H. Roberts, Comprehensive History of the Church (Provo, Utah: Brigham Young University Press, 1965), 1:128–129

 

The Church also addressed this issue long ago.  For example:

 

Russell M. Nelson, "A Treasured Testament," Ensign (July 1993), 61

Richard Lloyd Anderson, “By the Gift and Power of God”, Ensign (Sept. 1977)

 

And I and many others have taught the seer stone in a hat from time to time in Gospel Doctrine class. Thus, the seer stone criticism has no intellectually honest value.

Edited March 10, 2014 by BCSpace

[cdowis]

LOL...what exactly about my comment was garbage...It was an observation and an opinion

 

Read and respond to my post dealing with the issue.