The Lost 116 Pages

[DoC Ponder2]

FWIW, I probably should have just remained silent. I wish all members of the church, as well as other members of our global society I in other words everybody) would start to try and live as Christ said in the 2nd great commandment.Many will just say ...OK he left the church, why can't he leave it alone?  I've always found that an interesting point of view, as though only those who are current "card carrying" members should be allowed to speak about the church in any way.  I have generations of family who are members of the church at varying levels of activity. I am not going to get into any silly debates over doctrine or anything else. I will say (and have already done so) that there have been more than a few high level leaders who have acknowledged problems with membership numbers.

 

As for those that say (we're still here) the words of George Wallace stand out: "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow segregation forever". Indeed there have been those who could and have said of themselves that their way of doing things had lasted in spite of naysayers. Among that group though The LDS are still babes in the woods.

[The Nehor]

Uhhhh....membership is not faltering. Going by membership numbers exaggerates the number of members if you assume all are active and devoted but it has always been that way.

OH I'm sure there have always been those predicting the fall of Mormonism however it seems that lately there has been quite the "falling away".  I know, I know... I heard the 15 million member proclamation...however I have also read accounts, from GA's, that the numbers are faltering in the US. The place that seems to be showing the most robust "growth" is an are in Africa which has the lowest % of internet users.  The internet = information.

While I can't speak to the specific local area of Africa (which you conveniently left unidentified) but the Church's growth in Africa is pretty slow in general. There are a lot of cultural factors to deal with that make the work difficult.

A better way to measure church growth is via the number of congregations as that is a better indicator of who is actually attending and there we are doing quite well.

The Internet also equals collective stupidity. Go to the comments of any YouTube video and you will be hard-pressed to make the argument that internet use is synonymous with being well-informed.

[CV75]

RE: the 116 pages, I was thinking it would be easy for the Harrises to have gotten word of the revelations (D&C 3 and 10), and word spread to the conspirators. There may have been enough confusion among the "servants of Satan" or the "wicked" that their plan to take their forgery plans further was frustrated. Or they repented because of hearing about the revelations, so the Lord killed two/three/more birds with one stone--saved their souls, got the words published, taught Jospeh aand others a lesson, etc.

[Danzo]

 I will say (and have already done so) that there have been more than a few high level leaders who have acknowledged problems with membership numbers.

 

however I have also read accounts, from GA's, that the numbers are faltering in the US. 

 

Care to share what these GAs and high level leaders have said?

[Anteojito]

I took the lessons in 1982. You know, when they were hiding stuff.

I was on my mission then and I can tell you we were not teaching about the missing 116 pages

[Anteojito]

Do share with us these accounts from GAs,

 

Please.

January 3rd, A recording of Elder Jensen's Q&A was posted on the Internet.  The person who recorded it summarized the the Q&A session in a blog post where Jensen was asked if church leaders were aware that Mormons were "leaving in droves" which Jensen confirmed.  He elaborated that "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now." 

[Danzo]

January 3rd, A recording of Elder Jensen's Q&A was posted on the Internet.  The person who recorded it summarized the the Q&A session in a blog post where Jensen was asked if church leaders were aware that Mormons were "leaving in droves" which Jensen confirmed.  He elaborated that "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now." 

 

Kind of different than "Numbers are faltering in US" and "high level leaders who have acknowledged problems with membership numbers."

 

Last time I looked the number of units (stakes and wards) are increasing in the US, not decreasing. I think you are stretching the truth a little

 

http://ldschurchgrowth-us-canada.blogspot.com/

[The Nehor]

January 3rd, A recording of Elder Jensen's Q&A was posted on the Internet. The person who recorded it summarized the the Q&A session in a blog post where Jensen was asked if church leaders were aware that Mormons were "leaving in droves" which Jensen confirmed. He elaborated that "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now."

In case anyone is wondering this is why General Authorities have asked that notes taken during meetings not be publicized.

Edited February 26, 2014 by The Nehor

[Anteojito]

Kind of different than "Numbers are faltering in US" and "high level leaders who have acknowledged problems with membership numbers."

 

Last time I looked the number of units (stakes and wards) are increasing in the US, not decreasing. I think you are stretching the truth a little

 

http://ldschurchgrowth-us-canada.blogspot.com/

I'm stretching the truth? In what way? Elder Jensen said it, not me

[cinepro]

RE: the 116 pages, I was thinking it would be easy for the Harrises to have gotten word of the revelations (D&C 3 and 10), and word spread to the conspirators. There may have been enough confusion among the "servants of Satan" or the "wicked" that their plan to take their forgery plans further was frustrated. Or they repented because of hearing about the revelations, so the Lord killed two/three/more birds with one stone--saved their souls, got the words published, taught Jospeh aand others a lesson, etc.

 

Can anyone explain to me who the "conspirators" were?

 

According to The History of the Church, Martin was allowed to show the pages to "his brother, Preserved Harris, his own wife, his father and his mother, and a Mrs. Cobb, a sister to his wife."  So were these friends and relatives of Lucy in on it, or was it someone else?  Who else would want the Book of Mormon project to fail?

 

I can understand people wanting the gold plates.  But this theorized plan wasn't about the plates.  The goal of the plan was to get people to not buy the Book of Mormon when it came out months or years later.  And their plan involved a lot of time and effort to alter or forge the manuscript, then get it published.  So who would be so interested in convincing people to not buy the forthcoming Book of Mormon that they would plan to spend all this time (and money)?

Edited February 26, 2014 by cinepro

[cdowis]

Obediah Dogberry.  Create a sensation and sell alot of newspapers.  Read my posts above -- creating a phony manuscript is no big deal for a newspaper publisherl  No need to forge anything.

[Johnnie Cake]

 

But you stated "it was taught to us from our youth on" which seems at the very least to leave out the possibility of older converts believing it.

 

True I did....youth are taught in SS and on their mothers knee the stories of Joseph Smith and the lost 116 pages.  After baptism...eventually converts hear the stories too....by that time they are so invested in the church...they've already become innoculated

[The Nehor]

True I did....youth are taught in SS and on their mothers knee the stories of Joseph Smith and the lost 116 pages.  After baptism...eventually converts hear the stories too....by that time they are so invested in the church...they've already become innoculated

Yes, those poor souls have been brainwashed and are trapped. They have taken too much LDS and their brains will never be the same again.

[phaedrus ut]

For the explanation of events to work it seems to require that the wicked men believe that Joseph not only has the plates but that he has the power of translation. So with the belief that Joseph has ancient plates and magical translating powers they still attempt to be evil(motivations unknown). These with this confidence the conspirators, and apparently god, are certain in their plan to alter Martin Harris' handwritten work in ink.

This plan was foiled by god inspire the writing of a redundant version of events, on additional metal plates that for Moroni to carry. The redundant story stopped the plan of these evil men and thus apparently caused the forgery route to discredit Joseph to end.

 

Of course none of this makes any sense if you believe in the "loose translation" theory.

 

 

Phaedrus

[cdowis]

It makes sense if you were to read my posts.

[Danzo]

I'm stretching the truth? In what way? Elder Jensen said it, not me

 

You were responding to my call for reference for " I have also read accounts, from GA's, that the numbers are faltering in the US"

 

Elder Jensen's Quote did not reference that.  Hence, Stretching the truth.

 

If you can find a quote of a GA saying that "numbers are faltering in the US" then share with us, otherwise the assertion that GAs are saying that "numbers are faltering in the US" must be considered Stretching the truth.

[Danzo]

Can anyone explain to me who the "conspirators" were?

 

According to The History of the Church, Martin was allowed to show the pages to "his brother, Preserved Harris, his own wife, his father and his mother, and a Mrs. Cobb, a sister to his wife."  So were these friends and relatives of Lucy in on it, or was it someone else?  Who else would want the Book of Mormon project to fail?

 

I can understand people wanting the gold plates.  But this theorized plan wasn't about the plates.  The goal of the plan was to get people to not buy the Book of Mormon when it came out months or years later.  And their plan involved a lot of time and effort to alter or forge the manuscript, then get it published.  So who would be so interested in convincing people to not buy the forthcoming Book of Mormon that they would plan to spend all this time (and money)?

According to the history of the church

"Notwithstanding, however, the great restrictions which he had been laid under, and the solemnity of the covenant which he had made with me, he did show them to others, and by stratagem they got them away from him, and they never have been recovered unto this day."

 

So there were others involved.

 

But I think you already knew that.

[Anteojito]

You were responding to my call for reference for " I have also read accounts, from GA's, that the numbers are faltering in the US"

 

Elder Jensen's Quote did not reference that.  Hence, Stretching the truth.

 

If you can find a quote of a GA saying that "numbers are faltering in the US" then share with us, otherwise the assertion that GAs are saying that "numbers are faltering in the US" must be considered Stretching the truth.

I think that Elder Jensen's confirmation that Mormons were "leaving in droves" and his statement that  "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now" do serve as a reference that the numbers are faltering. I will grant it does not say in the US, but I think that can be implied.

 

When someone tells me I am stretching the truth, they are telling me that I am lying. Are you calling me a liar?

[Danzo]

I think that Elder Jensen's confirmation that Mormons were "leaving in droves" and his statement that  "maybe since Kirtland, we never have had a period of, I'll call it apostasy, like we're having right now" do serve as a reference that the numbers are faltering. I will grant it does not say in the US, but I think that can be implied.

 

When someone tells me I am stretching the truth, they are telling me that I am lying. Are you calling me a liar?

 

Explain again how Elder Jensens quote says that the numbers in the US are faltering?

 

I asked for a quote saying that the numbers in the us are faltering

 

People have been leaving the church "In droves" since day one, yet the numbers have not been faltering. Maybe they will someday maybe they  won't, however this particular quote doesn't say that they are. The data says they aren't as evidenced by the growth in wards.

 

"stretching the truth" was in reference to the quote that I was originally referring to, not your quote, sorry for the miscommunication.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Danzo

[Anteojito]

Explain again how Elder Jensens quote says that the numbers in the US are faltering?

 

I asked for a quote saying that the numbers in the us are faltering

 

People have been leaving the church "In droves" since day one, yet the numbers have not been faltering. Maybe the will someday maybe they  won't however this particular quote doesn't say that they are. The data says they aren't as evidenced by the growth in wards.

 

"stretching the truth" was in reference to the quote that I was originally referring to, not your quote, sorry for the miscommunication.

Ok so you want a quote from a GA with the word "faltering" in it.

 

To me the quotes show that people are leaving the church at an alarming rate. True, the numbers may not show it because most people who leave the church don't go through the trouble of having their names removed so they will stay on the roles until they die or reach the age of 110 if the church loses track of them.

 

The total number of members on the church's roles may not be declining much but activity is. At least if you believe Elder Jensen.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I am a little sensitive about my integrity being called into question.

Edited February 27, 2014 by Anteojito

[Danzo]

Ok so you want a quote from a GA with the word "faltering" in it.

 

To me the quotes show that people are leaving the church at an alarming rate. True, the numbers may not show it because most people who leave the church don't go through the trouble of having their names removed so they will stay on the roles until they die or reach the age of 110 if the church loses track of them.

 

The total number of members on the church's roles may not be declining much but activity is. At least if you believe Elder Jensen.

 

Thanks for the clarification, I am a little sensitive about my integrity being called into question.

 

If the activity rate is dropping, then why do you think the number of wards is increasing? Converts?

[Anteojito]

If the activity rate is dropping, then why do you think the number of wards is increasing? Converts?

I think you would have to peel the onion back on that. Where are the temples being opened, what are the sizes of the wards, what are the average attendance rates as compared to the membership roles and so forth. 

[cdowis]

The thread seems to have moved, but that's ok.

 

I find it interesting, at least in our mission, that the missionaries are charged with visiting and activating the members as much as visiting with investigators..  They have a goal of 20 discussions per week and that includes members.

Edited February 27, 2014 by cdowis

[phaedrus ut]

It makes sense if you were to read my posts.

 

Not sure what you're talking about specifically so I read all your posts in this thread. Still doesn't make sense. For Obediah Dogberry's plan to work he still has to believe that Joseph has ancient plates and he can translate ancient languages. That is a strange belief to be held by someone conspiring to ruin their reputation. 

 

Second, Obediah Dogberry(Esquire Cole) had access to unbound sheets from the original Book of Mormon months in advance of the book's release and he began printing them in The Reflector and didn't stop until the Smith family threatened him with legal action for copyright violation. 

 

Third, it wouldn't take a some grand forgery to create a phony manuscript as you suggest to sell newspapers because Obediah Dogberry(Esquire Cole) didn't have the ability to print original images. He was using E.B. Grandin's Smith Printing Press in his off hours.  That is how he had access to the early Book of Mormon sheets. He would need to typeset anything he printed, and he would likely have had the same access to the Book of Lehi that he did with the BOM.

 

And finally, even with the discovery of the small plates version of the same story, the original 116 pages from the large plate would have been great printing material for Dogberry because unlike the BOM it didn't have a copyright filing and would be free to print to sell his newspapers.  Which you suggest is Dogberry's motive.

 

And of course none of this works when you use the "loose translation" theory to explain the BOM problems. 

 

 

Phaedrus

[CV75]

For Obediah Dogberry's plan to work he still has to believe that Joseph has ancient plates and he can translate ancient languages.

Not necessarily. It seems likely that some believed that Joseph Smith’s plates and translations were hoax (v. 11, “pretended”; v. 28 “lieth to deceive”), and some believed they were delusion (v. 15, “get thee to tempt the Lord”), and some may have believed they were a bit of both. The intentions expressed in v. 16 – 19 are without faith (v. 10, 20-27). All they needed was a basis for a rumor to stir up more trouble (v. 32, 33). They were not going to compare manuscript to manuscript, but a publication of an altered manuscript which they had “stolen” to the published book (v.42). They had rationalized the risk of stealing and altering for establishing a greater “lie” (v. 25). The inspired solution of course was to produce an entirely new publication that no one could convincingly compare with either an alternate or admittedly stolen manuscript, or their published versions. Edited February 27, 2014 by CV75