Most Women Get The Type Of Man They Dress For - March 2014 Ensign

[Tacenda]

"A woman would have to dress in a long flowing carpet and cover her face to ensure men do not have 'improper' thoughts seeing her"

With some men, you could point to an empty refrigerator box and say there is a woman in it and they would have inappropriate thoughts.

This! Add...maybe it is that men/women have been told through many different outlets like the media, that showing skin is sexy, or our bodies are all for sex. Maybe it's about time we think of our bodies as a vessel of God's creation. Remember statues and paintings of naked men or women back in time where they were looked at as magnificent, not something smutty, or shameful.

[Calm]

. Remember statues and paintings of naked men or women back in time where they were looked at as magnificent, not something smutty, or shameful.

I think I would be more impressed by these if those cultures were also well known for their wonderful treatment of women and in many cases did not look upon them as less than human or property.

[EllenMaksoud]

In March 2014 Ensign we have the following statement:

http://media.ldscdn.org/pdf/magazines/ensign-march-2014/2014-03-00-ensign-eng.pdf

As the father of an 11-year-old girl I of course encourage her to dress modestly. But I'm disturbed by the message that: "...most women get the type of man they dress for."

So if a woman who wears a short dress or low top ends up in an abusive relationship, is it her fault? Did she get the man she dressed for?

You know, this just fries me out !!!! In Islam, women are always getting the blame for male lust. I never thought i would see this in Mormonism

[rodheadlee]

Sigh, whatever happened to love at first sight? I couldn't tell you what my wife was wearing when we first met. I looked into those eyes and knew I had loved her before, in some other life.

[Tacenda]

I think I would be more impressed by these if those cultures were also well known for their wonderful treatment of women and in many cases did not look upon them as less than human or property.

Yep, didn't think of that.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

It can be. It depends on the circumstance.

In regards to inappropriate clothing at church, it becomes my business when someone who is being held up as a good example to my children models bad behavior.

This doesn't mean the person is horrible or anything, or that my kids can't interact with them and have a relationship with them, but it does mean I have a responsibility to speak to my kids and point out why I believe they aren't being a good example in whatever the issue is.

And yes, doing that is my business.

It seems you and Gray are talking past one another. Just as I would never lecture my neighbor (I live in a Utah Mormon neighbor) about Sabbath day observance (nor would I disallow my kids to play with their kids), I would never approach a man or a woman and chew them out because of how they were dressed at church. It is another thing entirely to teach our kids our standard of modesty or Sabbath day observance.

[bluebell]

I'd like to see an example of a hooker pump.

 

They are really easy to find.  MS didn't invent the term, and a search on google for 'hooker shoes' or 'stripper shoes' provides a plethora of the kinds of shoes she's talking about.  It's a very popular way to describe this popular shoe trend.

 

Here's a link on pinterest that is just pictures of 'hooker shoes'.  

 

http://www.pinterest.com/shortie243/don-t-judge-my-hooker-shoes-yo/

[Gray]

I am not asking to make an argument from authority.  I just have a problem with someone making an all encompassing, regal pronouncement and expecting everyone else to acquiesce.  

 

I'm flattered that you think my pronouncements are regal

[Gray]

It can be. It depends on the circumstance.

In regards to inappropriate clothing at church, it becomes my business when someone who is being held up as a good example to my children models bad behavior.

This doesn't mean the person is horrible or anything, or that my kids can't interact with them and have a relationship with them, but it does mean I have a responsibility to speak to my kids and point out why I believe they aren't being a good example in whatever the issue is.

And yes, doing that is my business.

Unless they're literally showing up wearing nothing but a band-aid, your comments to someone else about their wardrobe are going to be more inappropriate than whatever they're wearing.

[hoo rider]

FWIW I currently serve in a Bishopric as Ward Clerk and in the last four and one half years I have not heard my Bishop express the sentiment that many in the ward have an unhealthy obsession with modesty.  FWIW it is my NSHO that those who think others have an unhealthy obsession with modesty have a pressing need to examine their own standards on modesty. Just my .02 worth.

 

That doesn't surprise me.  I was in the bishopric for 3.5 years and never heard such a sentiment.  I think men don't notice it for a couple reasons:

 

(1) Men rarely, if ever, feel judged for being immodest (current fashions for men and women likely have something to do with this);

(2) Men rarely comment about what women, especially young women, are wearing (comes off as creepy); 

(3) Mothers are usually held responsible before fathers for how their daughters dress;

(4) Usually it's women who will mention to somebody that their dress is immodest (related to #2);

(5) Women, especially young women, are much more likely to vocalize their questions about modesty to another woman than a man.

 

With regard to your final comment, I take it to mean you are implying that my wife might need to examine her own modesty standards.   Actually, she doesn't personally feel judged about being immodest and she isn't one to push the envelope.  She never mentioned it before she started serving in the YW's program, but once she was in serving she began to see how it affected the girls.  There are YW that do push the envelope (or completely leave it), but neither one of us feels that it should be a concern for random ward members.  

[mfbukowski]

Honestly, it's really dependent on how hot she is.  

 

Can someone clarify if we're only talking about hot chicks when it comes to immodesty, or if we are supposed to pretend all women are equally alluring in spaghetti straps?

Sexist.   I know you want to see me in Speedos - just admit it.

[Gray]

Sexist.   I know you want to see me in Speedos - just admit it.

 

I think that's been on all our minds, yes.

[bluebell]

Unless they're literally showing up wearing nothing but a band-aid, your comments to someone else about their wardrobe are going to be more inappropriate than whatever they're wearing.

 

When did i ever say i would tell someone their clothing was inappropriate?    

 

However, why would it be appropriate for me to tell someone they were being immodest if they had on a band-aid, but inappropriate if they had on a band-aide and a scarf?  Where is this line between appropriate and inappropriate exactly?

 

And while we are on this 'it's always bad to judge' topic (which is never taught in the scriptures, but let's completely ignore that), why isn't it inappropriate for YOU to tell me that my thoughts on this are inappropriate?  You are judging me, after all.

 

You evil, evil judger you.  

[hoo rider]

Who said anything about a "check-the-box" commandment?  I am a firm believer that with a few reminders (such as Elder Callister's admonitions) most can govern themselves.  For those who want to get offended at such admonition . . .

 

Can I ask why you didn't finish your final sentence?  Seems like you are attacking me personally (obviously if I am offended then I'm unrighteous) but you don't want to get called out for the personal attack.  Maybe I'm misreading things here, I hope so.  Please clarify.  

 

It was me that brought up that modesty is often discussed as a check-the-box commandment.  The scenario was that some don't see "hooker shoes" as immodest for church because shoes/feet are not specifically mentioned in the FSoY booklet.

 

I think we all govern ourselves imperfectly (at least I do).  Learning to better govern ourselves is one of the challenges of this life. I appreciate correct principles being taught, but I don't like hurtful conclusions that come from men, not God.   

[Gray]

When did i ever say i would tell someone their clothing was inappropriate?    

 

However, why would it be appropriate for me to tell someone they were being immodest if they had on a band-aid, but inappropriate if they had on a band-aide and a scarf?  Where is this line between appropriate and inappropriate exactly?

 

And while we are on this 'it's always bad to judge' topic (which is never taught in the scriptures, but let's completely ignore that), why isn't it inappropriate for YOU to tell me that my thoughts on this are inappropriate?  You are judging me, after all.

 

You evil, evil judger you.  

 

The Book of Mormon says not to judge, full stop. The only time it's qualified is when it says in Luke not judge by appearances, which again would prohibit us from judging someone based on their wardrobe.

 

We all judge, however, from childhood on. I just think the modesty obsession thing is unhealthy and encourages a lot of superficiality in our culture

[bluebell]

The Book of Mormon says not to judge, full stop. The only time it's qualified is when it says in Luke not judge by appearances, which again would prohibit us from judging someone based on their wardrobe.

 

We all judge, however, from childhood on. I just think the modesty obsession thing is unhealthy and encourages a lot of superficiality in our culture

 

The scriptures teach not to judge unrighteously.   The BOM says that.  The Bible says that.  The D&C says that.

 

We don't just all judge, we all HAVE to judge.  There is no way to know good and evil, and choose good, without making judgments of what people do and say.  This is why the scriptures never teach that we shouldn't judge.  Without the ability to judge our spiritual progress and growth would be crippled and we could never grow to become like Christ.

 

But of course, we are commanded not to judge unrighteously.

[Gray]

The scriptures teach not to judge unrighteously.   The BOM says that.  The Bible says that.  The D&C says that.

 

We don't just all judge, we all HAVE to judge.  There is no way to know good and evil, and choose good, without making judgments of what people do and say.  This is why the scriptures never teach that we shouldn't judge.  Without the ability to judge our spiritual progress and growth would be crippled and we could never grow to become like Christ.

 

But of course, we are commanded not to judge unrighteously.

 

The book of Mormon says not to judge period. The Bible says that, but also not to judge by appearances, but to rather judge righteously. Ergo, judging by appearances is unrighteous judgement. 

 

I have found in my own life that my spiritual progress is actually crippled by making judgements. As I make fewer of them, I come closer to God.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Gray

[bluebell]

The book of Mormon says not to judge period. The Bible says that, but also not to judge by appearances, but to rather judge righteously. Ergo, judging by appearances is unrighteous judgement. 

 

Alma 41:14

 

"Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again."

 

Moroni 7:18

 

"And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged."

 

D&C 11:12

 

"And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit."

 

Judging by appearances is unrighteous, but judging whether or not something someone is wearing is appropriate for church is not the same thing as judging by appearances.  No one has suggested that wearing immodest clothes makes a person a horrible person, or means that someone is bad.  It just means they are wearing something immodest and you recognize that.

[Rockerwife]

They are really easy to find.  MS didn't invent the term, and a search on google for 'hooker shoes' or 'stripper shoes' provides a plethora of the kinds of shoes she's talking about.  It's a very popular way to describe this popular shoe trend.

 

Here's a link on pinterest that is just pictures of 'hooker shoes'.  

 

http://www.pinterest.com/shortie243/don-t-judge-my-hooker-shoes-yo/

Like these?

 

I know this is just a drive by comment, but I couldn't resist.  

 

For me, high heels are a fun way to add color to an outfit, and height to my otherwise short stature.  I don't wear them every day, because they are not as comfortable as boots and tennis shoes.

[Gray]

Alma 41:14

 

"Therefore, my son, see that you are merciful unto your brethren; deal justly, judge righteously, and do good continually; and if ye do all these things then shall ye receive your reward; yea, ye shall have mercy restored unto you again; ye shall have justice restored unto you again; ye shall have a righteous judgment restored unto you again; and ye shall have good rewarded unto you again."

 

Moroni 7:18

 

"And now, my brethren, seeing that ye know the light by which ye may judge, which light is the light of Christ, see that ye do not judge wrongfully; for with that same judgment which ye judge ye shall also be judged."

 

D&C 11:12

 

"And now, verily, verily, I say unto thee, put your trust in that Spirit which leadeth to do good—yea, to do justly, to walk humbly, to judge righteously; and this is my Spirit."

 

Judging by appearances is unrighteous, but judging whether or not something someone is wearing is appropriate for church is not the same thing as judging by appearances.  No one has suggested that wearing immodest clothes makes a person a horrible person, or means that someone is bad.  It just means they are wearing something immodest and you recognize that.

 

 

3 Nephi 14:

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.   2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

John 7:24

 

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

 

 

Judging by appearances is unrighteous, but judging whether or not something someone is wearing is appropriate for church is not the same thing as judging by appearances. 

 

This is an internally contradictory statement. 

Edited February 20, 2014 by Gray

[bluebell]

3 Nephi 14:

 

Verily, verily, I say unto you, Judge not, that ye be not judged.   2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged; and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

 

John 7:24

 

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

 

 

This is an internally contradictory statement. 

 

So, you believe the scriptures in the BOM are contradicting themselves?  Maybe i'm misunderstanding but that's what you seem to be arguing.

 

My statement is not internally contradictory.  We don't judge how worthy someone is by what they wear.  We can judge how inappropriate an article of clothing is though, without making a judgment against the person wearing it.

 

Do you have children?

[jkwilliams]

So, you believe the scriptures in the BOM are contradicting themselves?  Maybe i'm misunderstanding but that's what you seem to be arguing.

 

My statement is not internally contradictory.  We don't judge how worthy someone is by what they wear.  We can judge how inappropriate an article of clothing is though, without making a judgment against the person wearing it.

 

Do you have children?

Of course we judge people by their appearance and dress. We can't help looking at a girl in a low-cut blouse and short shorts without making a judgment about their character. We even do this with our kids. If a son starts wearing gang colors or a daughter starts dressing in revealing clothes, we assume there is something wrong with where they are spiritually and emotionally.

[bluebell]

Like these?

 

I know this is just a drive by comment, but I couldn't resist.  

 

For me, high heels are a fun way to add color to an outfit, and height to my otherwise short stature.  I don't wear them every day, because they are not as comfortable as boots and tennis shoes.

 

I love high heels.  I almost always wear heels to church or other occasions where i dress up.    

 

'Hooker shoes' are not simply high-heeled shoes though.  They are a specific kind of extremely high heeled platform shoe which are also worn by strippers and sometimes hookers.

 

Here is how one person on yahoo-answers defined the term "stripper shoe"

 

"They are usually referring to 6" stilettos with a platform sole, usually strappy with open toes. They also often times are clear heels and platforms, but not always. The advantage of them is that men love to see women in them, they make our legs look long, lean, and very toned. I own several pairs, but they aren't for going out, they are strictly bedroom wear. I can walk around in them, but don't like to for extended periods of time."

 

These are the kinds of shoes MS was talking about.  And yes, i have actually seen these a few times on women at church.  My only thought was, "I hope she doesn't hurt herself."  I snickered to no one and certainly didn't mention anything out loud.

 

If it had been someone serving in YW's though, and i had a daughter in YW's, I would have quietly mentioned to her that regardless of the example that sister so and so was setting (who we know is a wonderful woman who can teach you lots of good things, etc...), those shoes are not acceptable for church.

Edited February 20, 2014 by bluebell

[wenglund]

Reading through the first part of this thread, I have to wonder:

 

Is there no mercy and grace for the Callistar article?

 

Are there no bounds to political correctness?

 

Might we be experiencing the makings of gender-baiting?

 

Have we as a people lost all sense of proportion and priority?

 

Are women young and old really as psychologically and emotionally fragile as some propose?

 

Is encouraging young women to dress modestly now on par with tooth extractions without pain-killers?

 

What a nutty world we live in.

 

Thanks, -Wade Englund

[bluebell]

Of course we judge people by their appearance and dress. We can't help looking at a girl in a low-cut blouse and short shorts without making a judgment about their character. We even do this with our kids. If a son starts wearing gang colors or a daughter starts dressing in revealing clothes, we assume there is something wrong with where they are spiritually and emotionally.

 

Honestly, i don't usually think dress implies anything about character (except maybe when it comes to gang colors, as those are worn specifically to identify specific character traits).

 

I just usually assume that no one ever taught them better, or in the case of church kids, that they are pushing boundaries.  I served in YWs in leadership before and  had enough good, strong, righteous girls who made dumb wardrobe choices to assume their dress implied anything about their worthiness or testimony.  It really helped me immensely to be able to look past what the girls wore to who the girls were.

 

Sometimes the dress did signal other deeper problems, but that was usually the exception and not the rule in my very limited experience.