Is It Acceptable To Allow Suicide To Maintain Purity Of Docrine?

[EllenMaksoud]

So, now days we are facing some really knotty social issues that try our resolve. Some of those involved kill themselves.

 

And there are reasons that God wants people dead as is amply illustrated in the Old Testament where Joshua and others are instructed to kill off certain tribes.

 

My own drives have been to try to understand why someone would choose death and to try to ease the reasons for that. The idea of just allowing someone to die is foreign to me.

[Calm]

If by purity of doctrine, you mean what a church's authorities believe and teach asthe truth of what God wants men to know, I am not seeing how altering that into a falsehood for whatever reason would help in the long run.

Of course what is crucial is to sincerely and earnestly seek out God's Will and Word on what one teaches and not just assume that what one feels is right before receiving a witness goes without a question.

But perhaps I am not understanding what you are asking.

I definitely don't understand what you mean by "allow suicide". Most faiths teach against it, at least Christian ones and certainly in the LDS faith we are taught to be compassionate and supportive of people struggling with depression and such.

Edited February 5, 2014 by calmoriah

[Tacenda]

If by purity of doctrine, you mean what a church's authorities believe and teach asthe truth of what God wants men to know, I am not seeing how altering that into a falsehood for whatever reason would help in the long run.

Of course what is crucial is to sincerely and earnestly seek out God's Will and Word on what one teaches and not just assume that what one feels is right before receiving a witness goes without a question.

But perhaps I am not understanding what you are asking.

I definitely don't understand what you mean by "allow suicide". Most faiths teach against it, at least Christian ones and certainly in the LDS faith we are taught to be compassionate and supportive of people struggling with depression and such.

I know you didn't mean to quote me here. Hopefully you'll get rest especially if you've been getting ready for company.

[EllenMaksoud]

I know you didn't mean to quote me here. Hopefully you'll get rest especially if you've been getting ready for company.

Well, in my opinion, if we are following the admonishment of Jesus Christ then we will do all we can to stop suicides. 

[Tacenda]

Totally agree, it should be at the top of societies list. I've often felt there needs to be more info out there. There is a suicide line, but I couldn't tell you what it was. Maybe that should be made more memorable. Your voice can go a long ways, you could really do wonders Ellen.

[Calm]

I know you didn't mean to quote me here. Hopefully you'll get rest especially if you've been getting ready for company.

Company has come they are asleep...the quote carried over from another post I was thinking about...

[The Nehor]

Suicide is tempting but only when you realize that this is pretty much as bad as eternity gets. The only time I considered it was when I was kind of messed up about something and needed answers and none were forthcoming. Logically I could get them more quickly on the other side. Then I worked my way out of it and just got mad at God. Then I forgave and we moved on.

[Garden Girl]

Totally agree, it should be at the top of societies list. I've often felt there needs to be more info out there. There is a suicide line, but I couldn't tell you what it was. Maybe that should be made more memorable. Your voice can go a long ways, you could really do wonders Ellen.

 

Tacenda...

Elder M. Russell Ballard published a small hard-bound booklet in 1993 (Deseret Book Co.) entitled: "Suicide... Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not."  I purchased this from Deseret Books.  This also appeared as an article in the Ensign in 1987...  As someone who had a family member commit suicide, I took comfort in Elder Ballard's words..."Suicide is a sin -- a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself.  The Lord will look at that person's circumstances and the degree of accountability at the time of the act." 

So many times an individual is not of a sound emotional and/or mental state at the time they decide to take their life... i.e., my family member certainly was not... so I trust that this will be taken into consideration when judgment comes... 

There are numerous articles from Church leaders that have appeared in Ensign and other publications.

 

GG

[The Nehor]

Well, in my opinion, if we are following the admonishment of Jesus Christ then we will do all we can to stop suicides.

"Judas wait, don't! You have so much to live for!!!!!! You just had a windfall of 30 pieces of silver for crying out loud!"

[KevinG]

"Judas wait, don't! You have so much to live for!!!!!! You just had a windfall of 30 pieces of silver for crying out loud!"

 

Too soon.

[EllenMaksoud]

Tacenda...

Elder M. Russell Ballard published a small hard-bound booklet in 1993 (Deseret Book Co.) entitled: "Suicide... Some Things We Know, and Some We Do Not."  I purchased this from Deseret Books.  This also appeared as an article in the Ensign in 1987...  As someone who had a family member commit suicide, I took comfort in Elder Ballard's words..."Suicide is a sin -- a very grievous one, yet the Lord will not judge the person who commits that sin strictly by the act itself.  The Lord will look at that person's circumstances and the degree of accountability at the time of the act." 

So many times an individual is not of a sound emotional and/or mental state at the time they decide to take their life... i.e., my family member certainly was not... so I trust that this will be taken into consideration when judgment comes... 

There are numerous articles from Church leaders that have appeared in Ensign and other publications.

 

GG

How ever those involved in the decisions that drive these suicides remain culpable to the act. I does not seem like the suicide will be judged as much as those who caused it.

[Duncan]

I am in the dark as to why things get so bad in people's lives that suicide becomes an option. As I say my G-Grandma it's believed killed herself and I don't know why things would get so bad in her and others life that that is an option given that it is considered a sin-I can see people thinking I don't want to die due to committing a sin but I don't know how to live given the circumstances thus making things a static because you don't know how to proceed 

Edited February 6, 2014 by Duncan

[Garden Girl]

How ever those involved in the decisions that drive these suicides remain culpable to the act. I does not seem like the suicide will be judged as much as those who caused it.

 

In the case of my relative (and many, many others), no one was to blame but that person's drug/alcohol induced paranoia, hallucinations, etc, etc.  People tried to help but to no avail...

 

GG

[EllenMaksoud]

In the case of my relative (and many, many others), no one was to blame but that person's drug/alcohol induced paranoia, hallucinations, etc, etc.  People tried to help but to no avail...

 

GG

Not the same issue.

[The Nehor]

Too soon.

 

Another thousand years before I can use that one?

[EllenMaksoud]

If by purity of doctrine, you mean what a church's authorities believe and teach asthe truth of what God wants men to know, I am not seeing how altering that into a falsehood for whatever reason would help in the long run.

Of course what is crucial is to sincerely and earnestly seek out God's Will and Word on what one teaches and not just assume that what one feels is right before receiving a witness goes without a question.

But perhaps I am not understanding what you are asking.

I definitely don't understand what you mean by "allow suicide". Most faiths teach against it, at least Christian ones and certainly in the LDS faith we are taught to be compassionate and supportive of people struggling with depression and such.

If you go back to the thread I started called, "Saving Lives",  it alludes to the use of a new, more compassionate medical/psychological protocol where children who identify as the opposite gender are identified and treatment begun before puberty. I read about a 2 year old the other day, that was observed, with no hormones added, until just as puberty was starting and then they were given a medication that stopped puberty. Later, they are raised as their chosen gender and may have surgery in their late teens.

 

If you recall in that thread, those not treated had a suicide rate of 41%, while those treated had a suicide rate that was the same as the general population or lower.

 

The Stake Presidents and Bishops manual states that those who have a voluntary gender change will not get a Temple Recommend.  My assertion is that in this latest protocol, the decline of the suicide rate makes the gender change not voluntary, but necessary to maintain life. So, my assertion is that if anyone blocks or hinders this treatment and the ones affected suicide, such interference is in essence murder.

 

Another point that needs to be made clear is that Transgender, and Intersex children had not one thing in common with gays and lesbians and is an entirely different issue.

Edited February 8, 2014 by EllenMaksoud

[Calm]

Exceptions are already made for involuntary surgery, I understand. If it is established that gender is ambiguous for an individual and surgery is undertaken to firmly establish one gender based on long term evaluation, it seems to me simply shifting the acceptable (in the sense the individual wasnt seen as choosing a different gender) surgery that used to be done by doctors guessing at a child's birth from visual appearance to a later, more medically and psychologically informed surgery. As the science becomes more effective at catching such cases earlier, allowing for long term observation, the conclusion that the preferred gender is not a result of conscious choice and was something that existed long before the individual would have understood any moral or social implications would tend IMO to moving such surgery into being viewed as appropriated medical procedure....depending of course on long term results (such as after surgery, the individuals function within the norms of mental and physical health for the rest of their lives as it appears so far to be heading this way rather then the surgery delaying or complicating the picture).

As the science makes the mechanisms clearer, it should be easier to have a general policy. At this point with the gaps still in the science even with good....but not perfect success in treatment I believe...it is wisest IMO to proceed on a case by case basis to ensure the individual is making choices based on fullest information, not being pressured into making a change she or he doesnt want to make but others expect them to, etc. and given the lack of experience at the local level of the Church, have a more centralised approach with expert doctors to advise seems prudent and will in the end cause the least turmoil.

Hopefully the needed changes will come soon in policy even if it is a dramatic departure from a previous position. This may happen if the science developments are dramatic enough to remove doubt of their value (I hope this is clear, my night drugs are hitting fast tonight for some reason and my head isn't as clear now as when I started and this is my second try due to having the iPad die on me just as I finished my first try. So please assume if I missed something or made a poor word choice it is due to half of my brain already asleep and the other quickly joining it and ask for clarification when I wake up).

My experience is that lds tend to go quickly along with medical advances, sometimes a bit slow if it touches on what are seen as moral issues that arent medical necessity such as most birth control and they do not see medical conditions as removing moral accountability unless the conditions impact level of intelligence and function.

[EllenMaksoud]

Exceptions are already made for involuntary surgery, I understand. If it is established that gender is ambiguous for an individual and surgery is undertaken to firmly establish one gender based on long term evaluation, it seems to me simply shifting the acceptable (in the sense the individual wasnt seen as choosing a different gender) surgery that used to be done by doctors guessing at a child's birth from visual appearance to a later, more medically and psychologically informed surgery. As the science becomes more effective at catching such cases earlier, allowing for long term observation, the conclusion that the preferred gender is not a result of conscious choice and was something that existed long before the individual would have understood any moral or social implications would tend IMO to moving such surgery into being viewed as appropriated medical procedure....depending of course on long term results (such as after surgery, the individuals function within the norms of mental and physical health for the rest of their lives as it appears so far to be heading this way rather then the surgery delaying or complicating the picture).

As the science makes the mechanisms clearer, it should be easier to have a general policy. At this point with the gaps still in the science even with good....but not perfect success in treatment I believe...it is wisest IMO to proceed on a case by case basis to ensure the individual is making choices based on fullest information, not being pressured into making a change she or he doesnt want to make but others expect them to, etc. and given the lack of experience at the local level of the Church, have a more centralised approach with expert doctors to advise seems prudent and will in the end cause the least turmoil.

Hopefully the needed changes will come soon in policy even if it is a dramatic departure from a previous position. This may happen if the science developments are dramatic enough to remove doubt of their value (I hope this is clear, my night drugs are hitting fast tonight for some reason and my head isn't as clear now as when I started and this is my second try due to having the iPad die on me just as I finished my first try. So please assume if I missed something or made a poor word choice it is due to half of my brain already asleep and the other quickly joining it and ask for clarification when I wake up).

My experience is that lds tend to go quickly along with medical advances, sometimes a bit slow if it touches on what are seen as moral issues that arent medical necessity such as most birth control and they do not see medical conditions as removing moral accountability unless the conditions impact level of intelligence and function.

I think that you have comprehended what I was trying to say very well. The new treatment protocol is far too late for the olds, but it is heart warming to hope that the children may not have to endure what so many have. I mean to get involved in this if they will let me, and that may not be possible because they may see those of my age to be not suitable.

 

It is incomprehensible that I survived those years. He meant to kill me had I not pretended to be what he thought. To know those that follow have a better chance is enough.

[Thinking]

1 Corinthians10:13

There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

 

If suicide is considered a sin and we accept this scripture as the truth, does this mean that all who commit suicide really were able to resist the urge to kill themselves?

 

If suicide is not considered a sin, does this mean that it wouldn't fall under the umbrella of temptation and therefore there's no conflict with the above scripture?

[Kenngo1969]

Totally agree, it should be at the top of societies list. I've often felt there needs to be more info out there. There is a suicide line, but I couldn't tell you what it was. Maybe that should be made more memorable. Your voice can go a long ways, you could really do wonders Ellen.

Try 1-800-SUICIDE.

[Tacenda]

Try 1-800-SUICIDE.

Well, that makes sense. And just to add, for those ever contemplating, think, tomorrow will be a better day, and just try and get through to it. Do what ever is necessary. Sometimes we think only in the moment.

[Kenngo1969]

If you're thinking of doing something drastic, talk to somebody ...  Even if you don't feel they can relate to your situation (and I realize your situation is extremely complex), giving voice to your feelings, even if no solutions readily present themselves, can be cathartic in and of itself.  Only God can judge adequately, but the fact that you asked the question in the OP means that you may have more culpability if you were to do something drastic than someone would who acted rashly in an ill-considered moment of haste.  I realize you're dealing with challenges few can understand (and even someone in a similar situation wouldn't react identically).  But even if no one on this earth understands, God does.  

 

You talk of "those responsible" for suicides, but fixing the blame doesn't fix any of the problems.  There are plenty of people who have been left behind by those who have committed suicide who blame themselves for what happened and continually ask themselves "What if ... ?" they had done something different, even perhaps many Church members and leaders.  Maybe you think it's not fair to ask you to wait for answers that are so long and so slow in coming: you're right. It's not.  But while your particular situation is complex, and while other challenges may seem simpler and "not a big deal" to you, mortality is difficult and bewildering to most of us, and lots of us are waiting for answers to lots of problems, and those answers seem long and slow in coming.  Even two people burdened theoretically by the exact same problem are apt to react differently to it.

 

The bottom line is, yes, God is more merciful than we can possibly imagine (especially to those who react drastically to extreme circumstances), but most of the time, the only way out of a problem is through it, even if the way "through" doesn't come until we've lived out every second of our appointed lifespan here in mortality.

 

P.S.: And since that post was entirely too serious, I need to lighten the mood a bit.  To borrow and slightly alter a quotation from the infamous Major Frank Burns of the television series M*A*S*H, "I believe in the sanctity of human life ... no matter how ugly or disgusting it gets!" (He was talking about marriage.)

Edited February 10, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

I am in the dark as to why things get so bad in people's lives that suicide becomes an option. . . . 

That's because, you're not them.

[EllenMaksoud]

Well, that makes sense. And just to add, for those ever contemplating, think, tomorrow will be a better day, and just try and get through to it. Do what ever is necessary. Sometimes we think only in the moment.

I'm not thinking of suicide, at least no more than um normal.

 

I was just thinking of my thread, "Saving Lives".  On the site where I publish my Sci Fi stories, there is a memorial board, with I think at least 25 names on it. Those on it suicided. In my mind, those were preventable suicides. What is acceptable action to prevent a suicide? Would you accept your son or daughter living as the "other" gender? 

 

The Bishops and Stake President's manual says that anyone who gets a voluntary sex change operation will not get a temple recommend. If the alternative is suicide, is the operation voluntary? Can't keep sweeping those under the carpet.

 

I don't mention gays and lesbians because transgender and intersex folk are nothing like them.

[The Nehor]

If suicide is considered a sin and we accept this scripture as the truth, does this mean that all who commit suicide really were able to resist the urge to kill themselves?

 

If suicide is not considered a sin, does this mean that it wouldn't fall under the umbrella of temptation and therefore there's no conflict with the above scripture?

Many people who commit suicide are insane which I believe falls outside of the purview of that scripture.