Is It Acceptable To Allow Suicide To Maintain Purity Of Docrine?

[katherine the great]

He seems emotionally unbalanced. 

If that's the case then yes, I would be concerned for his future happiness.  There are so many different forms of intersex conditions though and some don't manifest until puberty, some can only be detected through some type of high resolution imaging, some through chromosome testing.  If the root cause is truly biological, I would think living a life in the body of the opposite sex of our true nature would be a hellish experience.

[Garden Girl]

as stated the only way to know that is if people came back from the other side and many suicides don't, which to me tells me that God can spare some people and some people he can't or won't-like why does person A commit suicide and stays dead yet person B does it and comes back from the other side to tell us that suicide isn't solving any problems, is one person somehow better or more needed here or there more so than the other?

 

Sometimes a potential suicide is brought back by the doctors/paramedics... what would have been a suicide turns out not to be... I don't know that God has much to do with it...  things like meds or the electric "paddles" can be employed to start a heart that had stopped, literally pulling them back, and once that heart/pulse starts the spirit is pulled back... 

 

GG

[Kind Debater]

why then doesn't God do more to help them out/ Or why do conditions get so bad that suicide becomes their only option in going forward? I'd like to know the answers!

 

God does help suicidal people out. I can attest to this personally. I've thought about suicide many times in my life, and the times that I've been closest to doing something about it, God was there and he helped me. My friend once felt convicted to pray for her sister without knowing why, and later found out that at that exact moment, her sister was trying to commit suicide but somehow couldn't physically do it.

God also saves some people who attempt suicide, e.g. this story: http://deeperwaters.wordpress.com/2014/08/15/brush-with-death/

If you really want to understand why, I'm willing to tell you, but it's a long story and I don't necessarily feel like posting it all here (you can PM me). In a nutshell, I had a dysfunctional childhood and have a lot of trouble with depression and self-hatred as a result. I was also exposed to my mother's suicidal ideation growing up (she had borderline personality disorder) and that made suicide seem normal to me.

as stated the only way to know that is if people came back from the other side and many suicides don't, which to me tells me that God can spare some people and some people he can't or won't-like why does person A commit suicide and stays dead yet person B does it and comes back from the other side to tell us that suicide isn't solving any problems, is one person somehow better or more needed here or there more so than the other?

IMO God is sovereign and he has reasons for letting one person die and another person live. If someone wants to die but God has reasons for them to stay here and is going to work with/through them in some way, then they're not going to die until God says it's time. And vice versa. OTOH, God knows when he wants people to leave this earth, and sometimes he allows that to happen via murder or suicide.

[Kind Debater]

Ugh.  I don't think anyone's issues should ever hung over another's head.  My cousin had his surgery a year ago to become a woman and his mom felt like she had to be as supportive as possible so he wouldn't commit suicide.  What happens when he decides he's still not happy?  It's one thing to mock and torment a person, but people aren't responsible for a person's suicide if they don't embrace the choices they make. 

If your cousin ever does attempt/commit suicide, it is absolutely not his mom's fault, or your fault, or the fault of anyone else who loves him. Bullying, etc. can contribute to depression but no one can be responsible for making another person happy or the choices they ultimately make.

[Kenngo1969]

If your cousin ever does attempt/commit suicide, it is absolutely not his mom's fault, or your fault, or the fault of anyone else who loves him. Bullying, etc. can contribute to depression but no one can be responsible for making another person happy or the choices they ultimately make.

I agree with you that no one can be held responsible for anyone's happiness but his own.  As someone who has a complex psychological history (though the complexities of yours no doubt dwarf the complexities of mine), I do think that, often, suicide isn't a "choice" in the sense that someone who feels driven to it says, "Well, I could choose to live another day, or not."  Often, the abyss in which one finds one's self upon reaching the point where one makes a serious attempt feels inescapable, so one feels as though he doesn't have a choice.  It's an old saying, but it's true: one has to (1) know he has a problem; (2) want help for it; (and, I might add) (3) believe he can be helped.  Even if one knows he has a problem and wants help for it, that might not be enough if he doesn't believe he can be helped.  Rightly or wrongly (and again, we're talking about trying to see the problem from the perspective of someone who's stuck in a deep abyss), often, one sees suicide as the only way out of tremendous, seemingly soul-pulverizing pain, and/or the only way to relieve others of the burden he feels he has become to them.  (I'm not saying that's a correct perspective, I'm just saying that how the suicidal person sees his circumstances.)

 

Now having said all of this, once I (1) realize I have a problem, (2) want help for it, and (3) believe I can be helped, at that point I, and I alone, become responsible for my recovery: family members, friends, psychiatrists, nurses, psychologists, therapists, et cetera can help me, but ultimately, I am responsible for my recovery.  That may seem as though it's a tremendous additional burden to someone who already has crushing burdens, but it's actually a tremendously empowering thing.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[VideoGameJunkie]

I'm interested in what someone said that we still have our burdens when we first enter the spirit world. As I've mentioned many times before I have Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, Depression, and Anxiety. Will I still have these burdens when I enter the spirit world? That's not a good thought. I want immediate relief from these burdens when I pass on.

[Kind Debater]

As someone who has a complex psychological history (though the complexities of yours no doubt dwarf the complexities of mine),

Everyone has their own trials and burdens. Maybe you and I have different ones, but that doesn't mean yours are any less significant/complex/difficult.

I do think that, often, suicide isn't a "choice" in the sense that someone who feels driven to it says, "Well, I could choose to live another day, or not."  Often, the abyss in which one finds one's self upon reaching the point where one makes a serious attempt feels inescapable, so one feels as though he doesn't have a choice.  It's an old saying, but it's true: one has to (1) know he has a problem; (2) want help for it; (and, I might add) (3) believe he can be helped.  Even if one knows he has a problem and wants help for it, that might not be enough if he doesn't believe he can be helped.  Rightly or wrongly (and again, we're talking about trying to see the problem from the perspective of someone who's stuck in a deep abyss), often, one sees suicide as the only way out of tremendous, seemingly soul-pulverizing pain, and/or the only way to relieve others of the burden he feels he has become to them.  (I'm not saying that's a correct perspective, I'm just saying that how the suicidal person sees his circumstances.)

I completely understand what you're saying. I think it can be like other temptations (e.g. drug/alcohol addictions, though I haven't been addicted to anything so I don't know for certain how good of an analogy that is), where sometimes it is a choice and other times...not that it necessarily isn't a choice, but it's a situation where it can be difficult or maybe even impossible to do the right thing. There's been at least one time in my life when the only reason I didn't commit suicide was because God was there and he helped me see there was another option.

Before I started therapy I didn't know that I could feel differently or that the option I took in my situation was in fact a valid option, so I get what you're saying there too.

 

Now having said all of this, once I (1) realize I have a problem, (2) want help for it, and (3) believe I can be helped, at that point I, and I alone, become responsible for my recovery: family members, friends, psychiatrists, nurses, psychologists, therapists, et cetera can help me, but ultimately, I am responsible for my recovery.  That may seem as though it's a tremendous additional burden to someone who already has crushing burdens, but it's actually a tremendously empowering thing.

Yes, I know what you mean -- it's empowering when you realize that something can be done to improve things, and that it's something you can do (vs. hoping that the doctor can cure you or something else that's outside your control).

[Kind Debater]

I'm interested in what someone said that we still have our burdens when we first enter the spirit world. As I've mentioned many times before I have Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, Depression, and Anxiety. Will I still have these burdens when I enter the spirit world? That's not a good thought. I want immediate relief from these burdens when I pass on.

I wonder about that too. I think biological/physical problems will be gone, but I wonder about psychological ones -- like if I will still have a hard time with talking to people and feeling socially awkward. I suspect that simply being with God in a place where there is no evil or sin (this is based on my theological beliefs, obviously) will clear up a lot of things like depression and anxiety. Maybe there will be things we have to work on, but Jesus will be there to help us with that directly.

[USU78]

This is a troublesome topic, as it appears to presuppose that Church doctrine and/or practice is at fault for suicides.

 

Assuming this presupposition, the OP is hate speech . . . a brutal attack on Mormons qua Mormons.

 

I would love to have some reassurance that my reading is incorrect.

[Calm]

Ellen is no longer posting here, I believe, and no longer considers herself LDS but has returned to Islam.

Edited August 18, 2014 by calmoriah

[Duncan]

Judas Iscariot did himself a mischief, the implications of that puzzles me. 

[Kenngo1969]

I'm interested in what someone said that we still have our burdens when we first enter the spirit world. As I've mentioned many times before I have Tourettes Syndrome, ADHD, Depression, and Anxiety. Will I still have these burdens when I enter the spirit world? That's not a good thought. I want immediate relief from these burdens when I pass on.

I don't know.  Perhaps I'm misinterpreting Brother Joseph or misapplying his words.  I know Christ has already born whatever burdens you and I have, leaving to us only that portion that is necessary to tutor and refine us.  If I'm right in how I've applied Brother Joseph's words to this discussion, I don't think it will be the case that Christ will greet us with a vengeful smirk and say, "Hah!  You thought it was all over!  Little did you know!"  If someone commits suicide, I think it more likely that he'll put his arm on that person's shoulder and say, "I know you did that to try instantaneously to escape the pain of everything you were going through, but it doesn't quite work that way.  The bad news is that you still have a lot left to work through; the good news is that, just as I always have, I'll be here to help you through it every step of the way."  And they'll walk into whatever the equivalent of an LDS Family Services Office is in the Spirit World.  Tourette's and ADHD?  My sense is that those are primarily if not entirely biological in nature, and you'll probably have them removed more-or-less instantaneously.  Depression and anxiety?  Primarily biological, but also perhaps an oversimplification to say that a person's thought processes have absolutely nothing to do with them, so there might well be more to work through there.  But just as is the case here, working through them there won't be a punishment, but rather, simply a continuation of the growth and refinement processes that began here in mortality.  (Hope that make sense; if so, I'm glad it makes sense to one of us! ) 

 

Also, I think a portion of my earlier response to Kind Debater is germane to your question, and bears repeating here:

 

Now having said all of this, once I (1) realize I have a problem, and (2) want help for it and [i might add] (3) believe I can be helped, at that point I, and I alone, become responsible for my recovery: family members, friends, psychiatrists, nurses, psychologists, therapists, et cetera can help me, but ultimately I am responsible for my recovery. That may seem as though it's a tremendous additional burden to someone who already has crushing burdens, but it's actually a tremendously empowering thing.

 

 

I understand why someone would want to have a burden instantaneously removed.  I have a few of my own like that.  But wanting them instantaneously removed at the Resurrection poses the same questions as wanting them instantaneously removed here in mortality does: Would we be robbing ourselves of opportunities for growth, learning, and refinement if our burdens were instantaneously removed in either case?

 

P.S.: VGJ, have you ever read a book called Against Medical Advice, by Hal Friedman and James Patterson?  It's about Hal Friedman's son, Cory's, battle with Tourette's.  He went to dozens of specialists, and was on and off dozens of medications, many of which are (were) not primarily used to treat Tourette's, but the specialist du jour thought his particular "pet medication" might help.  He had dozens of tics, which made relating normally to anyone impossible ...  And then, one day when he was in high school, they just ... stopped. Just like that.   He also had OCD.  He doesn't mention whether the compulsions associated with it stopped along with his tics, but, nonetheless, a fascinating story.

 

I, too, look forward to having my burdens lifted; but the truth is, not unlike the story in Flowers for Algernon, if it were to happen suddenly, that would carry with it its own challenges.  It's easy to say, "Hooray!  I don't have these challenges anymore!"  But those challenges have been a major part of how I relate to the rest of the world for so long that it's naive to think that the process of having them lifted won't come with challenges of its own.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Kenngo1969

[Ahab]

Right now, I can only think of 2 reasons why someone would commit suicide:

1. They don't believe they will still be alive after they die (which is and always has been a very logical but false idea), so they believe that by ending their lives here they will be putting an end to those problems. They are in for a surprise, and more problems.

2. They believe life is better on the other side and they just want to put an end to their problems. The problem is there will still be other problems, and maybe even the same problems from the same mindset.

Better to just learn to cope with the problems, as hard as that may be sometimes, because the only real way to get around them is to go through them. Fortunately this mortal life doesn't last forever anyway and eternally it's just in the blink of an eye.

Edited August 19, 2014 by Ahab

[Storm Rider]

Chronic, severe depression is more complex and involved than those two reasons, Ahab.  Their choice is made with a mind that is no longer rational and completely overwhelmed.  I am not saying your the two choices you have given do not play a role, but that there is more to it than that.  It is not so cut and dried.

[Duncan]

Chronic, severe depression is more complex and involved than those two reasons, Ahab.  Their choice is made with a mind that is no longer rational and completely overwhelmed.  I am not saying your the two choices you have given do not play a role, but that there is more to it than that.  It is not so cut and dried.

 

 

it seems to be a constant barrage of things with finite resources to meet them effectively. Chaplin's Mum sounds like she just couldn't deal with it anymore and was was committed to am Asylum, I don't know if suicide would even make a difference. Living life in a sickly condition with no chance or hope or possibility of getting out of it or just doing yourself in, I dunno

 

the other thing is what about people who killed themselves 500 years ago or earlier? they had no medication, no therapists to talk about things with, what does God do with them? 

Edited August 19, 2014 by Duncan

[Calm]

It is not unusual for sufferers to think they are doing those they leave behind a favour and they act out of selflessness, though misplaced.

But as Storm Rider has said suicide is usually an irrational act and we might be clueless to make sense of their reasons even if they explained them to us.

[Storm Rider]

it seems to be a constant barrage of things with finite resources to meet them effectively. Chaplin's Mum sounds like she just couldn't deal with it anymore and was was committed to am Asylum, I don't know if suicide would even make a difference. Living life in a sickly condition with no chance or hope or possibility of getting out of it or just doing yourself in, I dunno

 

the other thing is what about people who killed themselves 500 years ago or earlier? they had no medication, no therapists to talk about things with, what does God do with them? 

 

He is our Father and our God; he possesses infinite wisdom, compassion, love, and forgiveness.  He understands us better than we do ourselves.  When the Savior paid the the ultimate price he paid the price that justice demands.  We know that all ordinances of salvation will be granted to all through vicarious work; we then will gravitate to the righteousness our heart desires.  

 

None of us are capable of judging one who has committed suicide because we are incapable of knowing what real burdens they carried.  The Godhead does know and can heal their broken heart and wounded soul.  

[Ahab]

Chronic, severe depression is more complex and involved than those two reasons, Ahab. Their choice is made with a mind that is no longer rational and completely overwhelmed. I am not saying your the two choices you have given do not play a role, but that there is more to it than that. It is not so cut and dried.

Okay, so a third reason is brain damage. I don't have a problem with adding more reasons to the list.

[Storm Rider]

Okay, so a third reason is brain damage. I don't have a problem with adding more reasons to the list.

 

Semantics my friend, semantics.  I would not call someone that suffers from chronic, severe depression a person with brain damage.  I don't think the medical field thinks of these people as brain damaged.  There may be chemical imbalances that have a significant impact, but that is not brain damage, but rather affects the functioning of the brain.  

 

A person with severe depression that ends their life does not begin their journey at the bottom of a deep hole.  It is rather a long, slow descent into a life that becomes a living hell.  The deeper they get the harder it is for them to recover.  At some point they lose all hope and choose to end their life.  

 

As far as a LDS who commits suicide I think the reasons are just as varied as for those who are not LDS.  

 

I don't like lists for this type of think because of complexity; it is a whole range of issues that influence the final decision.  However, if you were going to add a list of reasons I would expect another might be that a person with severe depression is not looking for a better day, they are searching for surcease; and ending to pain.  They don't want to go to heaven they just want their existence to cease.  If Satan and the sons of perdition are kept in prison then there must be some force that keeps them there.  That force may be something that can end existence or an annihilation of self.  

I recall reading one book by two members of the Church.  They stated that those who are depressed may not be able to sense the Spirit or were incapable of feeling the Spirit.  When I read it I asked myself does faith exist when hope is absent?  Is faith and hope interdependent?  I had never read anything similar and I am still unsure of it.  I have always felt that the Holy Spirit can make itself felt whenever he chooses to do so; nothing is capable of preventing his presence.  Regardless, it does bring the questions I brought up among others.

 

Ahab, I think your warning that we learn to cope is valid; our societies and our communities would be sell served by teaching coping techniques in health class in school.  But it is naive to assume that if we each just learn to cope that depression would cease to exist in the world.  Depression is caused by many things and some of those things are beyond the control of the individual.

[Duncan]

Semantics my friend, semantics.  I would not call someone that suffers from chronic, severe depression a person with brain damage.  I don't think the medical field thinks of these people as brain damaged.  There may be chemical imbalances that have a significant impact, but that is not brain damage, but rather affects the functioning of the brain.  

 

A person with severe depression that ends their life does not begin their journey at the bottom of a deep hole.  It is rather a long, slow descent into a life that becomes a living hell.  The deeper they get the harder it is for them to recover.  At some point they lose all hope and choose to end their life.  

 

As far as a LDS who commits suicide I think the reasons are just as varied as for those who are not LDS.  

 

I don't like lists for this type of think because of complexity; it is a whole range of issues that influence the final decision.  However, if you were going to add a list of reasons I would expect another might be that a person with severe depression is not looking for a better day, they are searching for surcease; and ending to pain.  They don't want to go to heaven they just want their existence to cease.  If Satan and the sons of perdition are kept in prison then there must be some force that keeps them there.  That force may be something that can end existence or an annihilation of self.  

I recall reading one book by two members of the Church.  They stated that those who are depressed may not be able to sense the Spirit or were incapable of feeling the Spirit.  When I read it I asked myself does faith exist when hope is absent?  Is faith and hope interdependent?  I had never read anything similar and I am still unsure of it.  I have always felt that the Holy Spirit can make itself felt whenever he chooses to do so; nothing is capable of preventing his presence.  Regardless, it does bring the questions I brought up among others.

 

Ahab, I think your warning that we learn to cope is valid; our societies and our communities would be sell served by teaching coping techniques in health class in school.  But it is naive to assume that if we each just learn to cope that depression would cease to exist in the world.  Depression is caused by many things and some of those things are beyond the control of the individual.

 

 

kind of like they don't necessarily want to die, it's just they don't want to live anymore

[Ahab]

kind of like they don't necessarily want to die, it's just they don't want to live anymore

Yeah. Like I said, brain damage, like the kind Bill Cosby talks about when talking about children who do some things without knowing or understanding why they do them. And there is sometimes a mix with more than one reason.

[Calm]

Most people do not use brain damage in that way so it would be best not to use the phrase to avoid confusion. Better to just say the brain is not functioning in the same way as typical fro most people in some cases of suicide ideation.

[Jeanne]

Well..that is a deep subject.  When I was little, I remember members of the Ward speaking of a suicide and at the time it seemed explicit that it was a great sin and a sin of murder.  Of course, life experiences and just plain growing up and looking outside the box alittle, it became harder to understand and yet understood so much better..(does that make sense)?  I am in a family of suicide..two to be exact..yes, I was angry, sad and all those things..but there were things that i understood that I believe God will take into great consideration.  My sister had her reasons..when I see her again, I will hug her and love her..then I will kick her butt!    I have missed and needed her so many times since.  But I really don't feel that anyone can judge such a thing.  She lost her eleven year old daughter in a drowning incident and still let so much laughter into her life..underneath, we can never know.

 

Hugs..just my IMO.

 

Jeanne

 

(BTW:  Jeanne was HER name)

[The Nehor]

kind of like they don't necessarily want to die, it's just they don't want to live anymore

This happens to me sporadically. Am I supposed to kill myself?

It is not unusual for sufferers to think they are doing those they leave behind a favour and they act out of selflessness, though misplaced.

But as Storm Rider has said suicide is usually an irrational act and we might be clueless to make sense of their reasons even if they explained them to us.

To be fair I have known suicides that were a kind of favor to those around them.

[Duncan]

This happens to me sporadically. Am I supposed to kill myself?

To be fair I have known suicides that were a kind of favor to those around them.

 

 

are you supposed to? I dunno! but people do it all the time, I guess they never asked God about it or something!