Answer Me This?

[Monster]

Why are there not more Mormons? If the church is true and God answers prayers why are there not many many more members of the church? Many people pray for guidance in their lives and they get divergent answers or insight. Some follow one path some another. Many despise the path that others are on as corrupt, yet everyone seems to claim the same direction from God. 

 

So either there is not one true church or God does not answer prayers equally. Which is it? 

 

I am not trying to be troublesome, it is just that this is the issue that troubles me most about the church and religion in general. Claims that there is one path and God told me what it is.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Why are there not more Mormons? If the church is true and God answers prayers why are there not many many more members of the church? Many people pray for guidance in their lives and they get divergent answers or insight. Some follow one path some another. Many despise the path that others are on as corrupt, yet everyone seems to claim the same direction from God. 

 

So either there is not one true church or God does not answer prayers equally. Which is it? 

 

I am not trying to be troublesome, it is just that this is the issue that troubles me most about the church and religion in general. Claims that there is one path and God told me what it is.

Not all ask, and some ask with the answer they want already in mind. We are flawed in how we live our lives and need the aid of heaven, and that carries over into our prayer life. Some sadly don't pray at all. Why?, is the most complicated and long question ever posed by man.

[bluebell]

"Strait is the gate, and narrow the way, and few there be who find it."

[Kenngo1969]

I look at it this way.  Many paths will get you most of the way there (or at least some of the way there), even if there's only one path that'll get you all the way there.  Here are some more of my thoughts on the subject.

 

http://www.greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2012/04/16/toward-interreligious-oneness/

 

For what it's worth.

[DBMormon]

Why are there not more Mormons? If the church is true and God answers prayers why are there not many many more members of the church? Many people pray for guidance in their lives and they get divergent answers or insight. Some follow one path some another. Many despise the path that others are on as corrupt, yet everyone seems to claim the same direction from God. 

 

So either there is not one true church or God does not answer prayers equally. Which is it? 

 

I am not trying to be troublesome, it is just that this is the issue that troubles me most about the church and religion in general. Claims that there is one path and God told me what it is.

 

 

I would recommend you listen to this podcast episode as I tackle exactly this idea

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/06/11/true-and-living-church/

 

Short answer - It is not the only method God is using and was never intended to encompass most people on the earth.  It is simply here to hold the keys and officiate the ordinances which all will receive in this life or the the next. 

 

when the Savior of the World (think about that for a second, When GOD himself) came to earth he came to a remote place and lived his life relatively unknown and instructing only a small group of people......  it is not the answer that must fit your expectation but rather your expectation must change to fit the answer.

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[CA Steve]

I would recommend you listen to this podcast episode as I tackle exactly this idea

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/06/11/true-and-living-church/

 

Short answer - It is not the only method God is using and was never intended to encompass most people on the earth.  It is simply here to hold the keys and officiate the ordinances which all will receive in this life or the the next. 

I believe the short answer you gave here (sorry I have not listened to the podcast so you may address my objection there) raises very troublesome questions about the inequality of this mortal probation.

[DBMormon]

I believe the short answer you gave here (sorry I have not listened to the podcast so you may address my objection there) raises very troublesome questions about the inequality of this mortal probation.

Please elaborate on the problems you perceive?

 

To back up to some extent at least some of what I am saying is taught here

 

"Perhaps the Lord needs such men on the outside of His Church to help it along... They are among its auxiliaries, and can do more good for the cause where the Lord has placed them, than anywhere else. … Hence, some are drawn into the fold and receive a testimony of the truth; while others remain unconverted … the beauties and glories of the gospel being veiled temporarily from their view, for a wise purpose. The Lord will open their eyes in His own due time. God is using more than one people for the accomplishment of His great and marvelous work. The Latter-day Saints cannot do it all. It is too vast, too arduous for any one people."

 Elder Orson F. Whitney of the Quorum of the Twelve

 

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[volgadon]

Not all ask, and some ask with the answer they want already in mind.

 

Much, I guess, like the opening post.

[cinepro]

Poor marketing.

[CA Steve]

Please elaborate on the problems you perceive?

 

To back up to some extent at least some of what I am saying is taught here

Well, in keeping with the OP, why would a mortal probation be set up wherein only 1% or less (just throwing out numbers) actually be exposed to the gospel? We are sent down here to be tested in all things, but it seems the testing varies wildly. Those born in Africa or the Orient  during the dark ages versus a people born in 20th century in Utah to LDS parents face a completely different life and set of rules to follow. What is the point beyond just getting a body? In a way, the person born in Africa has the advantage of not being placed in the position in this life of having to accept or reject the gospel. When one considers the span of a mortal life and the possible eternal consequences of decisions made here, the guy in Africa got off easy.

 

I realize the answer is that all will get the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, but then that makes doing so here no more important than doing so in the next life, or if it is more important, then the test is inherently unequal.

[Palerider]

For a better perspective on what has occured since the Savior's resurrection I would recommend a careful reading of Matt. 13: 24-43.

 

You will notice that, rather than a complete falling away or apostacy as some promote, that there is a general mixing of false doctrine and teachers with the true doctrines taught by the Savior, which takes place.

 

There is NO ATTEMPT made at a "restoration". As a matter of fact it is expressly forbidden. There is also no attempt to "gather" or prepare a people before the second coming of the Savior.

 

Rather, the people who truly hunger and thirst after righteousness and who are willing to educate themselves through the scriptures, and with the help of the Spirit, are able to lead the type of lives that are acceptable to God, without being attached to any particular Christian "religion". 

 

And it is they who are gathered together at the second coming to shine forth as God's true children.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Palerider

[Palerider]

Much, I guess, like the opening post.

 

Come on now.......I thought the OP was asked fairly honestly.

[Monster]

For a better perspective on what has occured since the Savior's resurrection I would recommend a careful reading of Matt. 13: 24-43.

 

You will notice that, rather than a complete falling away or apostacy as some promote, that there is a general mixing of false doctrine and teachers with the true doctrines taught by the Savior, which takes place.

 

There is NO ATTEMPT made at a "restoration". As a matter of fact it is expressly forbidden. There is also no attempt to "gather" or prepare a people before the second coming of the Savior.

 

Rather, the people who truly hunger and thirst after righteousness and who are willing to educate themselves through the scriptures, and with the help of the Spirit, are able to lead the type of lives that are acceptable to God, without being attached to any particular Christian "religion". 

 

And it is they who are gathered together at the second coming to shine forth as God's true children.

If I understand you correctly it is not important what religion you belong to but how you live your life. If that is the case I do not think I would pick Mormonism to get me to God. There are simpler and more enjoyable paths.

[Palerider]

Well, in keeping with the OP, why would a mortal probation be set up wherein only 1% or less (just throwing out numbers) actually be exposed to the gospel? We are sent down here to be tested in all things, but it seems the testing varies wildly. Those born in Africa or the Orient  during the dark ages versus a people born in 20th century in Utah to LDS parents face a completely different life and set of rules to follow. What is the point beyond just getting a body? In a way, the person born in Africa has the advantage of not being placed in the position in this life of having to accept or reject the gospel. When one considers the span of a mortal life and the possible eternal consequences of decisions made here, the guy in Africa got off easy.

 

I realize the answer is that all will get the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, but then that makes doing so here no more important than doing so in the next life, or if it is more important, then the test is inherently unequal.

 

I think as Paul states, the "Law" is written in the hearts of all men and that as stated in John, the Spirit of Christ enlightens all men who come into this life. 

 

That being said I think the actual experience of coming to this life and having a physical body is so enlightening that it prepares us for further instruction in the next life.

 

I think the importance of "ordinances" in this life, as advanced by some are just WAY overrated........ 

[JLHPROF]

Well, in keeping with the OP, why would a mortal probation be set up wherein only 1% or less (just throwing out numbers) actually be exposed to the gospel? We are sent down here to be tested in all things, but it seems the testing varies wildly. Those born in Africa or the Orient  during the dark ages versus a people born in 20th century in Utah to LDS parents face a completely different life and set of rules to follow. What is the point beyond just getting a body? In a way, the person born in Africa has the advantage of not being placed in the position in this life of having to accept or reject the gospel. When one considers the span of a mortal life and the possible eternal consequences of decisions made here, the guy in Africa got off easy.

 

I realize the answer is that all will get the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, but then that makes doing so here no more important than doing so in the next life, or if it is more important, then the test is inherently unequal.

 

I still believe that the circumstances into which we are born in this probation are directly impacted by our actions in the pre-earth probation.

 

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the ^aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the ^bnoble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast ^achosen before thou wast born."

Abraham 3:22-23

 

The test is not inherently equal, but we did not all arrive in this probation on equal footing.  That is the simple truth.  Some arrived here having further to progress than others.

But all will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, either in this life or the next.

[garza4411]

There are a couple possible answers that come to mind. First, that we don't know when the millennium will come and so maybe there's hundreds or thousands of years left...enough time to build the church worldwide. In 1888 I'm sure the members wondered why the church wasn't larger, but figures for today compared with that time have skyrocketed.

 

The second answer that comes to my mind is less optimistic. I can't quite find the words to articulate this possibility, except to say that there's less truthfulness to this gospel than members believe.

[halconero]

For a better perspective on what has occured since the Savior's resurrection I would recommend a careful reading of Matt. 13: 24-43.

You will notice that, rather than a complete falling away or apostacy as some promote, that there is a general mixing of false doctrine and teachers with the true doctrines taught by the Savior, which takes place.

There is NO ATTEMPT made at a "restoration". As a matter of fact it is expressly forbidden. There is also no attempt to "gather" or prepare a people before the second coming of the Savior.

Rather, the people who truly hunger and thirst after righteousness and who are willing to educate themselves through the scriptures, and with the help of the Spirit, are able to lead the type of lives that are acceptable to God, without being attached to any particular Christian "religion".

And it is they who are gathered together at the second coming to shine forth as God's true children.

I think you have a misunderstanding of the apocalyptic nature of the Early Christian Church and the purpose of most of the epistles.

[thesometimesaint]

I would recommend you listen to this podcast episode as I tackle exactly this idea

http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/06/11/true-and-living-church/

 

Short answer - It is not the only method God is using and was never intended to encompass most people on the earth.  It is simply here to hold the keys and officiate the ordinances which all will receive in this life or the the next. 

 

when the Savior of the World (think about that for a second, When GOD himself) came to earth he came to a remote place and lived his life relatively unknown and instructing only a small group of people......  it is not the answer that must fit your expectation but rather your expectation must change to fit the answer.

 

I like it.

[DBMormon]

Well, in keeping with the OP, why would a mortal probation be set up wherein only 1% or less (just throwing out numbers) actually be exposed to the gospel? We are sent down here to be tested in all things, but it seems the testing varies wildly. Those born in Africa or the Orient  during the dark ages versus a people born in 20th century in Utah to LDS parents face a completely different life and set of rules to follow. What is the point beyond just getting a body? In a way, the person born in Africa has the advantage of not being placed in the position in this life of having to accept or reject the gospel. When one considers the span of a mortal life and the possible eternal consequences of decisions made here, the guy in Africa got off easy.

 

I realize the answer is that all will get the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, but then that makes doing so here no more important than doing so in the next life, or if it is more important, then the test is inherently unequal.

 

 

You make several assumptions I would consider false.

1.) that coming into contact with the gospel is necessary or affects one's chances of salvation in the eternities.  I don't believe this to be true - Though I do think it affects the speed at which we get there.

2.) That one's specific experiences need to be similar to be equally tested.  I don't agree here.  Each of us will face the fact we are fallen (save Children who die before accountability) and each of us will have a chance here of the hereafter to show that we desire progress and to be changed from the natural man to being perfect in and with Christ.

 

Once you correct these assumptions then your points lose their hold.

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[CA Steve]

I still believe that the circumstances into which we are born in this probation are directly impacted by our actions in the pre-earth probation.

 

"Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the ^aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the ^bnoble and great ones;

And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast ^achosen before thou wast born."

Abraham 3:22-23

 

The test is not inherently equal, but we did not all arrive in this probation on equal footing.  That is the simple truth.  Some arrived here having further to progress than others.

But all will have the opportunity to accept or reject the gospel, either in this life or the next.

A few years ago, I believe, this statement would have been accepted as an accurate description of what we believe as Mormons happened in our first estate. Given the disavowal of the reasons stated in the past for the ban, I am no longer sure what we believe happened in the preexistence and how where we are in this life can be a result of our actions before. Are we supposed to believe the more valiant there were sent here for even more difficult testing? Again it would lead one to conclude that obedience just leads to a more difficult and eternal consequence affecting life here for those who were more valiant before. Eternity is . . . well forever. Frankly I wouldn't mind being behind other people by a mere 60-80 years ( a blink of the eye if you will), if I can avoid having to make decisions in this life that affect me forever. The response that we continue to be tested in the next life, then makes the testing in this life part of a process and not one that has eternal consequences.

 

Like I said, the short answer DBMormon gave raises all sorts of questions about this probation.

[Palerider]

I think you have a misunderstanding of the apocalyptic nature of the Early Christian Church and the purpose of most of the epistles.

 

I'm sorry, but I am quoting a parable directly from the Lord and Matthew is not written as an "epistle" but as a witness. I think I understand the early church fairly well and if you have some insight that we have overlooked feel free to explain.

[DBMormon]

If I understand you correctly it is not important what religion you belong to but how you live your life. If that is the case I do not think I would pick Mormonism to get me to God. There are simpler and more enjoyable paths.

I agree whole heartedly with the simpler and disagree with the enjoyable.

 

In terms of Simpler - God wants us to be like him, this changing to become requires adversity and challenges which Mormonism provides well if one wishes to open up to those challenges.

 

And while other paths may also be assisting you to change, I think God values the speed at which we change.  Just as I as a parent want my children to grow and make good choices, and while I recognize they may get way off track and come back, I would be happier if they became productive citizens, parents, spouses sooner rather then later.

 

I also add that even on another path you will eventually require ordinances which will require you to use your agency to submit to the Lord authorized institution for administering those.  Hence the simplier (though arduous) path is to stay with the Church.

[CA Steve]

You make several assumptions I would consider false.

1.) that coming into contact with the gospel is necessary or affects one's chances of salvation in the eternities.  I don't believe this to be true

2.) That one specific experiences need to be similar to be equally tested.  I don't agree here.  Each of us will face the fact we are fallen (save Children who die before accountability) and each of us will have a chance here of the hereafter to show that we desire progress and to be changed from the natural man to being perfect in and with Christ.

 

Once you correct these assumptions then your points lose their hold.

1. So someone can hear the gospel in this life time and reject it and not suffer any permanent punishment for that rejection? What would be the point of accepting the gospel here in this life if there are no consequences? I disagree very strongly with this. It is my opinion that our decisions here absolutely have eternal consequences. We have the power to seal up relationships for eternity, certainly those decisions are forever.

2. Then a mortal probation wherein someone dies just after birth would absolutely be the way to go. I am sorry I do not accept that. The tests are not just mildly unequal, they are wildly different. They vary from no test at all to a lifetime of strict obedience to a very specific set of rules and a single wrong decision ( a really bad one like murder) can condemn one forever.

[Palerider]

If I understand you correctly it is not important what religion you belong to but how you live your life. If that is the case I do not think I would pick Mormonism to get me to God. There are simpler and more enjoyable paths.

 

I think the LDS faith does a good job at teaching the "law", even though in some cases they go overboard. There is alot of good to be found there.

 

But one just has to be mature enough to weed out the "tares" in the doctrine and policies to not let "the church" overrun one's better judgement and common sense.

 

As Ben Franklin (hwo admittedly had his own problems) said:

 

"I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did."

[CA Steve]

I agree whole heartedly with the simpler and disagree with the enjoyable.

 

In terms of Simpler - God wants us to be like him, this changing to become requires adversity and challenges which Mormonism provides well if one wishes to open up to those challenges.

 

And while other paths may also be assisting you to change, I think God values the speed at which we change.  Just as I as a parent want my children to grow and make good choices, and while I recognize they may get way off track and come back, I would be happier if they became productive citizens, parents, spouses sooner rather then later.

 

I also add that even on another path you will eventually require ordinances which will require you to use your agency to submit to the Lord authorized institution for administering those.  Hence the simplier (though arduous) path is to stay with the Church.

Bill,

50-70 years is nothing, it isn't even a blink of an eye. A billion years from now do you think that what happened in those 50-70 will have any relevance to our existence?