Answer Me This?

[DBMormon]

1. So someone can hear the gospel in this life time and reject it and not suffer any permanent punishment for that rejection? What would be the point of accepting the gospel here in this life if there are no consequences? I disagree very strongly with this. It is my opinion that our decisions here absolutely have eternal consequences. We have the power to seal up relationships for eternity, certainly those decisions are forever.

2. Then a mortal probation wherein someone dies just after birth would absolutely be the way to go. I am sorry I do not accept that. The tests are not just mildly unequal, they are wildly different. They vary from no test at all to a lifetime of strict obedience to a very specific set of rules and a single wrong decision ( a really bad one like murder) can condemn one forever.

 

1.) if they reject it knowing it is true then yes there are consequences.  How many of the 99.8% of people who are not mormon have rejected it knowing it was true?  another .2% maybe  Your trying to make something count in a way that God never has.  That said The gospel has lots of blessings that I think God would like us to take advantage of.  Support Group, opportunities to serve, opportunities to be challenged, opportunties to be around others we would not choose to be around hereby helping us develop love for others.  I just don't see these as make or break in that only in the LDS church is Salvation found in this earth life.

 

2.) how is this any different then mentally handicapped.  You seem to see value in the experiences of the gospel and yet I think the the poverty stricken  non-mormon kid in the inner city Los Angelos, the wealthy non-LDS kid in an upper class area of Australia and the average LDS kid in a middle class neighborhood on Provo all have an equal chance at Salvation and Exaltation (based on their desires and willingness to progress are the same).

 

Your forcing this to be a barrier when it is not

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[DBMormon]

Bill,

50-70 years is nothing, it isn't even a blink of an eye. A billion years from now do you think that what happened in those 50-70 will have any relevance to our existence?

 

Except we have teachings that say once we get to the other side this progress is made harder by not having a body.  While perhaps still a drop in the bucket, If I were God, I would want my children to reach their potential as quickly and effeciently as they can just as I as a earthly parent want the same.

[CA Steve]

Except we have teachings that say once we get to the other side this progress is made harder by not having a body.  While perhaps still a drop in the bucket, If I were God, I would want my children to reach their potential as quickly and effeciently as they can just as I as a earthly parent want the same.

Bill,

 

Speed in meaningless when we have forever.

 

I am enjoying our discussion.

[halconero]

I'm sorry, but I am quoting a parable directly from the Lord and Matthew is not written as an "epistle" but as a witness. I think I understand the early church fairly well and if you have some insight that we have overlooked feel free to explain.

 

Perhaps I misunderstood, are we talking about this one specific parable? The Gospels? Or the New Testament as a whole?

 

If it is the first, then I can understand. If it's the second, then I can give examples of Jesus exhorting preparation and gathering prior to the Second Coming. If it's the last I can share examples of the apostles striving to prepare the people for the second coming, warning of apostasy (general and regional), the enforcement of one religious path, etc.

 

BUT, I want to understand where you're coming from first, just so I don't try to discuss or even debate something or someone I'm misunderstanding.

[AndyDnom]

If there really is a god out there, and mormonism is his one true church, then this god is doing a terrible terrible job. Most the people in this world that really care about religion are muslim or catholic or some other thing other than mormonism.

[DBMormon]

If there really is a god out there, and mormonism is his one true church, then this god is doing a terrible terrible job. Most the people in this world that really care about religion are muslim or catholic or some other thing other than mormonism.

if one uses the assumption that God feels it is crucial to your well being to be a member of his proscribed Church, Which I no longer believe.

[DBMormon]

Bill,

 

Speed in meaningless when we have forever.

 

I am enjoying our discussion.

 

 

Steve, If I told you you have a Child and I will give you two options for his path in life.  One involves more turmoil, more pain, more frustration, more withdrawing from serving others and more sad experiences.  The Other involves more joy, more personal achievement, more love and community service, ect.... ect....     Both live to be 100 and both paths end with the last three years of their life being equally enjoyable and equally happy, and equally full of fulfillment.  Which one as a parent would you choose for your child?

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[thesometimesaint]

Joseph Smith said it was a great work too accomplish our exaltation. It is going to take me a long time just to really understand calculus, let alone Godhood. But then again what's a few biliion years between friends.

Edited December 21, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[DBMormon]

Bill,

 

Speed in meaningless when we have forever.

 

I am enjoying our discussion.

 

You may have forever, but that doesn't mean he would not prefer sooner

You really should listen to the episode.  It follows Terryl Given's paradigm and steals from him extensively

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[Palerider]

Perhaps I misunderstood, are we talking about this one specific parable? The Gospels? Or the New Testament as a whole?

 

If it is the first, then I can understand. If it's the second, then I can give examples of Jesus exhorting preparation and gathering prior to the Second Coming. If it's the last I can share examples of the apostles striving to prepare the people for the second coming, warning of apostasy (general and regional), the enforcement of one religious path, etc.

 

BUT, I want to understand where you're coming from first, just so I don't try to discuss or even debate something or someone I'm misunderstanding.

 

All statements (in my first post) made after the initial recommendation to read Matt. 13: 24-43 pertain specifically to that parable.

 

Did you read it?

[CA Steve]

Steve, If I told you you have a Child and I will give you two options for his path in life.  One involves more turmoil, more pain, more frustration, more withdrawing from serving others and more sad experiences.  The Other involves more joy, more personal achievement, more love and community service, ect.... ect....     Both live to be 100 and both paths end with the last three years of their life being equally enjoyable and equally happy, and equally full of fulfillment.  Which one as a parent would you choose for your child?

I don't not believe your analogy applies; we are not talking about finite time frames. Trying to impose them on eternal consequences is the question. Either what we do here has eternal consequences or it doesn't. In your example I would prefer that the child spent the 97 years in misery if I knew it would allow him more time to make the correct decisions in the next life over a 1000 years or a 100,000 years. I don't care how long it takes as long as he gets there.  Either way, time frames are meaningless in eternity. If I take a million years to reach exaltation versus you doing it in 97, what is the difference a trillion years from now? Nothing, we are both in the same state for 99.9 percent of our exalted existence. We would be laughing about my blink of an eye rebellious period.

 

I do not know how it works Bill, but if this life has permanent consequences, and I am pretty sure it does in LDS theology, then the test is inherently unequal

[DBMormon]

I don't not believe your analogy applies; we are not talking about finite time frames. Trying to impose them on eternal consequences is the question. Either what we do here has eternal consequences or it doesn't. In your example I would prefer that the child spent the 97 years in misery if I knew it would allow him more time to make the correct decisions in the next life over a 1000 years or a 100,000 years. I don't care how long it takes as long as he gets there.  Either way, time frames are meaningless in eternity. If I take a million years to reach exaltation versus you doing it in 97, what is the difference a trillion years from now? Nothing, we are both in the same state for 99.9 percent of our exalted existence. We would be laughing about my blink of an eye rebellious period.

 

I do not know how it works Bill, but if this life has permanent consequences, and I am pretty sure it does in LDS theology, then the test is inherently unequal

 

 

This life does have permanent consequences.  This is the time to prepare to meet God.  This is the time to yield your heart to him (Helaman 3:35)  This is the time to yoke with Christ (Moroni 10:31-32).  This is the time to press forward with steadfastness (2nd Nephi 31)  but we can do this in the Church and out.  And for those whose culture and life experiences do not provide this opportunity they can do it later in the next life, but regardless - It does not impact our exaltation as long as we are willing to act WHEN said opportunity comes and desire to be Like God  -  but regardless of how meaningless it does affect how soon we get there

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[CA Steve]

This life does have permanent consequences.  This is the time to prepare to meet God.  This is the time to yield your heart to him (Helaman 3:35)  This is the time to yoke with Christ (Moroni 10:31-32).  This is the time to press forward with steadfastness (2nd Nephi 31)  but we can do this in the Church and out.  And for those whose culture and life experiences do not provide this opportunity they can do it later in the next life, but regardless - It does not impact our exaltation as long as we are willing to act WHEN said opportunity comes and desire to be Like God  -  but regardless of how meaningless it does affect how soon we get there

I am not sure how one can compare a decision made with the veil over our memories in this life to a decision made in a future existence without that veil. Are we supposed to believe we don't know we are dead in the next life, or are now spirits once again, will we once again have a veil over our minds about this existence, and will the devil have the same ability to tempt us there as he does here? The next life would have to have the same type of temptations and chances for obedience we have here or else, once again, it is unequal test.

 

By the way, in every description I have ever seen of the next existence, it is radically different from this one.

Edited December 21, 2013 by CA Steve

[halconero]

All statements (in my first post) made after the initial recommendation to read Matt. 13: 24-43 pertain specifically to that parable.

 

Did you read it?

 

Yup! Thank you, that clears it up for me what you were talking about.

 

I have to disagree with you on your interpretation. 

 

In Christ's explanation of the parable he does not talk about a mixing of false doctrine with true. The field is not the church, it is the earth (v 38). The seed is not His doctrine, but His people (v.38). The weeds are the evil people of the world, and the devil is the one who sows them in the field (v.38-39).

 

Such has always been the case, and is supported by Biblical, and Latter-day Saint scripture. God sows the good whether or not the church, or his gospel, is on the earth.

 

I'll reiterate that there is no mention of a mixing of false doctrine with true, nor is restoration forbidden, nor is a physical or spiritual gathering of God's people forbidden. The gathering spoken of refers to judgement.  

[3DOP]

Why are there not more Mormons? If the church is true and God answers prayers why are there not many many more members of the church? Many people pray for guidance in their lives and they get divergent answers or insight. Some follow one path some another. Many despise the path that others are on as corrupt, yet everyone seems to claim the same direction from God. 

 

So either there is not one true church or God does not answer prayers equally. Which is it? 

 

I am not trying to be troublesome, it is just that this is the issue that troubles me most about the church and religion in general. Claims that there is one path and God told me what it is.

 

Given the LDS view of proxy baptisms, it seems like the visible fruits of this present life could be considered as the seed sown, as it were. An abundant harvest hereafter will determine that the prayers were answered when almost everybody, excepting those few who go to Hell will be LDS. I am sure I could think of other alternative answers too, but that is the direction I think I would go if I were wanting to be LDS now.

Edited December 21, 2013 by 3DOP

[DBMormon]

I am not sure how one can compare a decision made with the veil over our memories in this life to a decision made in a future existence without that veil. Are we supposed to believe we don't know we are dead in the next life, or are now spirits once again, will we once again have a veil over our minds about this existence, and will the devil have the same ability to tempt us there as he does here? The next life would have to have the same type of temptations and chances for obedience we have here or else, once again, it is unequal test.

 

By the way, in every description I have ever seen of the next existence, it is radically different from this one.

You looketh on the outward.  "God looketh on the heart".  Our behaviors have more meaning to us then to him.  They are important only in that they represent what is in our heart.  Each of us will have had a chance in this life to fall and sin (excepting children and severely mentally ill or challenged).  Some  (I believe Most) have the desire to progress, to be more, to improve.  When we get to the other side God will take those who hearts wish to yield to his (either having done so in this life with an opportunity given or recognizing they would have if given the chance) and he will notify them they they sinned and fell short of the Glory of God, and like the rich man who was told he had less of a chance to get to heaven then a camel fitting through the eye of the needle, so will each of us be told that on our merits we each have fallen short.  It was impossible.  But then the great mediator shall respond with an answer he used with his apostles just after the Rich man dropped all he had and fled.... With man it is impossible, but with God All things are possible.  For all who are willing and desire to progress, God will both Justify and Sanctify them (and hopefully he is already doing this with us in this life and hopefully many others as well though this process will continue past the veil)

 

Steve, This is my view and I know others here will disagree and your welcome to as well.  Without sitting down with you in person it will be difficult for me to explain myself in a way that shows all points at which I am coming from.  I simply see the gospel as much more inclusive then others and I see the "few there be that find it" to be solely speaking of those who try to find it on their own.  Once one yokes with Christ I believe most will find it, And I believe Most will eventually yoke with Christ.

 

I would prefer we agree to disagree rather then go back and forth.  If you truly care to hear how I put this together you will likely have to talk to me by phone or listen to several episodes of my podcast.  The first option would be shorter, though the second I think would be more fulfilling.

 

X  Episode 2: Doctrine Of Christ Part 1/4   -     http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/08/09/doctrine-of-christ-part-1/

X Episode 3: Doctrine of Christ Part 2/4    -     http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/08/24/doctrine-of-christ-part-2/

X Episode 9: Doctrine of Christ Part 3/4    -     http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/09/19/doctrine-of-christ-part-3/

X Episode 10 Doctrine of Christ Part 4      -     http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/09/25/doctrine-of-christ-final-part-4/

X Episode 11: Grace Perfected in Christ   -     http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/09/30/grace-being-perfected-in-christ/

X Episode 12: Return to Fishing & Loyalty -    http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2012/10/16/a-return-to-fishing-and-a-quest-for-loyalty/

Episode 26: Worth of Souls  -  http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/01/10/the-worth-of-souls-is-great/

X Episode 44: Kirtland Sunstone Talk -  http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/04/29/sunstone-talk-at-kirtland/

X Episode 49: Deeper Meaning of the Sacrament -  http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/05/27/deeper-meaning-of-the-sacrament/

X Episode 51: True & Living Church -  http://mormondiscussion.podbean.com/2013/06/11/true-and-living-church/

 

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[Palerider]

Yup! Thank you, that clears it up for me what you were talking about.

 

I have to disagree with you on your interpretation. 

 

Feel free. It's a free country......

 

In Christ's explanation of the parable he does not talk about a mixing of false doctrine with true. The field is not the church, it is the earth (v 38). The church is on this earth, therefore it is part of it. The seed is not His doctrine, but His people (v.38). People inherently bring false doctrine with them. It is the doctrine they obey or promote whether good or bad that determines what kind of people they become. Your own doctrine supports this in the form of a general apostacy.

 

The weeds are the evil people of the world, and the devil is the one who sows them in the field (v.38-39). The tares and the good wheat are so inextricably placed together that one cannot uproot one without harming the other. So is the present day situation. Better to let those who will follow Christ's true doctrines come to maturity in the field until the time of harvest, when the tares will be gathered first.

 

Such has always been the case, and is supported by Biblical, and Latter-day Saint scripture. God sows the good whether or not the church, or his gospel, is on the earth.  Precisely, and currently that church is not on the earth.

 

I'll reiterate that there is no mention of a mixing of false doctrine with true, nor is restoration forbidden, nor is a physical or spiritual gathering of God's people forbidden. The gathering spoken of refers to judgement.  No need to reiterate your argument is already defeated. 

Edited December 21, 2013 by Palerider

[CA Steve]

 

 

Steve, This is my view and I know others here will disagree and your welcome to as well.  Without sitting down with you in person it will be difficult for me to explain myself in a way that shows all points at which I am coming from.  I simply see the gospel as much more inclusive then others and I see the "few there be that find it" to be solely speaking of those who try to find it on their own.  Once one yokes with Christ I believe most will find it, And I believe Most will eventually yoke with Christ.

 

I would prefer we agree to disagree rather then go back and forth. 

Bill,

 

Thanks for the discussion.

 

I think were we able to sit down, we would find we are a lot closer in viewpoints than we think. Discussion boards are a very 2 dimensional way of interacting.

Sadly there are few other venues offered where discussions of this nature can take place.

Take care.

[halconero]

 

 

Feel free. It's a free country......

 

I'm Canadian, technically countries.

 

The church is on this earth, therefore it is part of it. 

 

It is part of the world, but it is still a discreet unit within it. 

 

People inherently bring false doctrine with them. It is the doctrine they obey or promote whether good or bad that determines what kind of people they become. Your own doctrine supports this in the form of a general apostacy.  

 

People do bring false doctrine with them, but that is not the point of Christ's parable. In no part of it does he say "therefore the truth becometh corrupted." Even though the wheat is mixed with the tares, they are still discreet units. The good is observable from the bad. Coming from a farming background I can tell you that it's easy to see when weeds have gotten into the wheat. It is an entirely different thing to try and go over it with a combine and try to separate the too. Christ is not talking about discerning the good from the bad, but the harvesting thereof.

 

The tares and the good wheat are so inextricably placed together that one cannot uproot one without harming the other. So is the present day situation. Better to let those who will follow Christ's true doctrines come to maturity in the field until the time of harvest, when the tares will be gathered first.

 

I agree with you. The destruction of the wicked would destroy many of the righteous. As I said above, they can still be distinguished from each other. Tares are not so similar to wheat that you can't tell one from the other. True people, and using your extrapolation, doctrine, can be distinguished from false, and is not necessarily mixed making a plant that is half wheat, half tare. Let us remember that Christ is talking about people, not teachings, in this verse. Let's not extend the meaning of the parable beyond what he said himself, and establish it for doctrine. 

 

Precisely, and currently that church is not on the earth.

 

Says who?

 

No need to reiterate your argument is already defeated. 

 

I demonstrate the actual meaning of Christ's words, without extrapolation, as pure as they come from the Bible. Furthermore, it's a poor debater who declares himself the winner, and does not let the outside observer do so himself.

[DBMormon]

Bill,

 

Thanks for the discussion.

 

I think were we able to sit down, we would find we are a lot closer in viewpoints than we think. Discussion boards are a very 2 dimensional way of interacting.

Sadly there are few other venues offered where discussions of this nature can take place.

Take care.

 

 

Amen Steve.  In many ways I am alone in my ward.  There is are only a couple here who know the tip of the iceberg of the complexity of Mormonism and and even less who can speak to it in a way that doesn't just circle the wagon around their beliefs and defend them rather then be vulnerable to adapting to new truths. 

 

There are a couple in my stake ex: Buckeye for one, but he is too far for me to have regular conversations with (Our Stake in OHIO covers probably 25-35 towns, our ward alone covers three counties).  I too wish many of us were closer in distance so that we could benefit from each other.   While I come off as pushy at times, I thrive on new information and adapting my framework, and I love deep conversations with people of various views. (As long as said views are not a spewing of the nonsense we find when uninformed views further complete nonsense.  If someone is informed and not forcing their view I can sit at their feet all day.  (I wish Terryl Givens was my relation and lived down the street)

Edited December 21, 2013 by DBMormon

[CV75]

Why are there not more Mormons? If the church is true and God answers prayers why are there not many many more members of the church? Many people pray for guidance in their lives and they get divergent answers or insight. Some follow one path some another. Many despise the path that others are on as corrupt, yet everyone seems to claim the same direction from God. 

 

So either there is not one true church or God does not answer prayers equally. Which is it? 

 

I am not trying to be troublesome, it is just that this is the issue that troubles me most about the church and religion in general. Claims that there is one path and God told me what it is.

Most inequalities, such as the bounds and habitations of our mortal probation which affect access to hearing and acting on the message of the Restored Gospel in this life, are corrected in the long-run through the Atonement of Christ. Still, God answers all prayers equally in that all are born with the Light of Christ (a conscience or sense of right and wrong), but not everyone does all they can with all they've got, and not everyone who has access to the message prepares, seeks or hears the answers equally.

[bluebell]

 

 

 

Feel free. It's a free country......

 

I'm Canadian, technically countries.

 

The church is on this earth, therefore it is part of it.

 

It is part of the world, but it is still a discreet unit within it. 

 

People inherently bring false doctrine with them. It is the doctrine they obey or promote whether good or bad that determines what kind of people they become. Your own doctrine supports this in the form of a general apostacy. 

 

People do bring false doctrine with them, but that is not the point of Christ's parable. In no part of it does he say "therefore the truth becometh corrupted." Even though the wheat is mixed with the tares, they are still discreet units. The good is observable from the bad. Coming from a farming background I can tell you that it's easy to see when weeds have gotten into the wheat. It is an entirely different thing to try and go over it with a combine and try to separate the too. Christ is not talking about discerning the good from the bad, but the harvesting thereof.

 

The tares and the good wheat are so inextricably placed together that one cannot uproot one without harming the other. So is the present day situation. Better to let those who will follow Christ's true doctrines come to maturity in the field until the time of harvest, when the tares will be gathered first.

 

I agree with you. The destruction of the wicked would destroy many of the righteous. As I said above, they can still be distinguished from each other. Tares are not so similar to wheat that you can't tell one from the other. True people, and using your extrapolation, doctrine, can be distinguished from false, and is not necessarily mixed making a plant that is half wheat, half tare. Let us remember that Christ is talking about people, not teachings, in this verse. Let's not extend the meaning of the parable beyond what he said himself, and establish it for doctrine. 

 

Precisely, and currently that church is not on the earth.

 

Says who?

 

No need to reiterate your argument is already defeated. 

 

I demonstrate the actual meaning of Christ's words, without extrapolation, as pure as they come from the Bible. Furthermore, it's a poor debater who declares himself the winner, and does not let the outside observer do so himself.

 

 

Well said Halcerno.

 

Also, if anyone wonders how to quote and respond to different parts of someone's post and separate their words into multiple quote boxes this is how you do it.

 

If you hit the 'light switch' looking button at the top of the post box (next to the eraser and kind of by the font box-i believe it's called the toggle switch) it will take you to a version of the post that includes the html codes.  

 

From there, it's simple to just add your own close quote (looks like this-

[Palerider]

Well said Halcerno.

 

Also, if anyone wonders how to quote and respond to different parts of someone's post and separate their words into multiple quote boxes this is how you do it.

 

If you hit the 'light switch' looking button at the top of the post box (next to the eraser and kind of by the font box-i believe it's called the toggle switch) it will take you to a version of the post that includes the html codes.  

 

From there, it's simple to just add your own close quote (looks like this-

) at the end of the first point in the conversation you want to quote, and then erase the last close quote at the very end of whole post.

 

Once that is done, just hit the toggle button again and it will take you back to the regular view of the posts, and you'll see that you have quoted the first part of someone's post, retaining their name and timestamp, while leaving everything else they said unquoted.  Just highlight whatever else you want to quote and respond to and hit the regular quote button to put each section in it's own quote box . Or delete things they said that aren't relevant to your response.  Just make sure you don't leave anything they said outside of a quote box or it will get mixed up with your own responses.

 

It makes it so you can break up what they are saying and quote each section separately as you answer them, and it's easier than i just made it sound.  

[Palerider]

 

 

 

Feel free. It's a free country......

 

I'm Canadian, technically countries.

 

The church is on this earth, therefore it is part of it.

 

It is part of the world, but it is still a discreet unit within it. 

 

People inherently bring false doctrine with them. It is the doctrine they obey or promote whether good or bad that determines what kind of people they become. Your own doctrine supports this in the form of a general apostacy.  

 

People do bring false doctrine with them, but that is not the point of Christ's parable. In no part of it does he say "therefore the truth becometh corrupted." Even though the wheat is mixed with the tares, they are still discreet units. The good is observable from the bad. Coming from a farming background I can tell you that it's easy to see when weeds have gotten into the wheat. It is an entirely different thing to try and go over it with a combine and try to separate the too. Christ is not talking about discerning the good from the bad, but the harvesting thereof.

 

The tares and the good wheat are so inextricably placed together that one cannot uproot one without harming the other. So is the present day situation. Better to let those who will follow Christ's true doctrines come to maturity in the field until the time of harvest, when the tares will be gathered first.

 

I agree with you. The destruction of the wicked would destroy many of the righteous. As I said above, they can still be distinguished from each other. Tares are not so similar to wheat that you can't tell one from the other. True people, and using your extrapolation, doctrine, can be distinguished from false, and is not necessarily mixed making a plant that is half wheat, half tare. Let us remember that Christ is talking about people, not teachings, in this verse. Let's not extend the meaning of the parable beyond what he said himself, and establish it for doctrine. 

 

Precisely, and currently that church is not on the earth.

 

Says who?

 

No need to reiterate your argument is already defeated. 

 

I demonstrate the actual meaning of Christ's words, without extrapolation, as pure as they come from the Bible. Furthermore, it's a poor debater who declares himself the winner, and does not let the outside observer do so himself.

 

 

 

The parable in Matthew 13 is about the "kingdom of Heaven". It is about Christ's kingdom here on earth and what happens to it after it is established by Him.   Christ's kingdom or church (I hesitate to use the word "church" because of the organizational connotation it brings with it), is invisible to us at this point. Israel only exists amorphously at this point in time although it is known unto the Lord, in that he knows all of our hearts. 

 

After He has sown "good seed" which are good people with correct and pure doctrine, (read apostles and the subsequent converts), the Devil comes along and attempts to corrupt the kingdom with his false doctrines and false teachers. See verse 25 which even has a footnote in the LDS scriptures referring to the great apostacy. 

 

This is all accomplished "while men sleep". In other words, those who were supposed to guard the field, because of their human frailties were unable to do so.

 

The angels ask in verse 28 if they should go down and purify (or restore) the kingdom to it's original purity and their request is denied. They are told that it shall remain as it is until those who are truly the Lord's have reached maturity and the harvest is then engaged.

 

The field is the earth in the sense that it is (and will be) the Lord's Kingdom when all false doctrine and false teachers are removed at the time of the harvest.  

 

The earth is the Lord's Kingdom (church) even now although it remains unclean at this point in time.

Edited December 22, 2013 by Palerider

[halconero]

The parable in Matthew 13 is about the "kingdom of Heaven".

 

Jesus says that the parable is about the world. The man, and his seeds represent the kingdom of heaven in the world.

 

It is about Christ's kingdom here on earth and what happens to it after it is established by Him.  

 

Agreed.

 

Christ's kingdom or church (I hesitate to use the word "church" because of the organizational connotation it brings with it), is invisible to us at this point.

 

Where does it say this? Archaeological, historical, and biblical evidence points to a very real, very visible organization. So does the parable. The wheat didn't suddenly disappear among the tares. The servants could distinguish the two, but could not separate them with ease. Tares and wheat exist as discreet units. I can share from personal experience that when tares get into your wheat field it isn't hard that hard to tell them apart if you just look closely. Nor do the tares "infect" or "mix" with the wheat in any biological sense. It is maybe difficult to tell the two apart in the first couple months, until the ear appears. 

 

Israel only exists amorphously at this point in time although it is known unto the Lord, in that he knows all of our hearts. 

 

If the early apostles' writings are any indication, they thought that Israel was among them, and that it included the Gentile converts.

 

After He has sown "good seed" which are good people with correct and pure doctrine, (read apostles and the subsequent converts), the Devil comes along and attempts to corrupt the kingdom with his false doctrines and false teachers. See verse 25 which even has a footnote in the LDS scriptures referring to the great apostacy. 

 

Agreed. Notice that the good people doesn't disappear. Nor are they destroyed or subsumed by the the bad people. This is consistent with the LDS belief that even following the apostasy many good people continued among the earth. It also doesn't preclude any thought of restoration or gatherings in (more on the gathering in the next few paragraphs). This is my personal opinion, but you could say that the maturing of the ears of wheat, which helps the farmer truly distinguish between the tares and the wheat, could be the maturing of the Kingdom through the Restoration <- Just a personal thought, not really related to the parable.

 

This is all accomplished "while men sleep". In other words, those who were supposed to guard the field, because of their human frailties were unable to do so.

 

This could also be read as apostasy.

 

The angels ask in verse 28 if they should go down and purify (or restore) the kingdom to it's original purity and their request id denied. They are told that it shall remain as it is until those who are truly the Lord's have reached maturity and the harvest is thne engaged.

 

The Kingdom remains pure. In no place during the parable does Christ infer that the good people he has seeded around the world have disappeared. What the angels request is to cleanse the world, not the gospel.

 

The field is the earth in the sense that it is (and will be) the Lord's Kingdom when all false doctrine and false teachers are removed at the time of the harvest.  

 

The earth will definitely be the Lord's Kingdom.

 

The earth is the Lord's Kingdom (church) even now although it remains unclean at this point in time.

 

No. The Kingdom of Heaven is likened unto the Man planting the seeds, and the seeds themselves. The earth is the area in which they are planted. Once the wicked are harvested, the earth will be pure.

 

Also, the "gathering" as portrayed in Matthew is not the same as the gathering of Israel, or the Restoration, which can occur before the final harvest. The word "gather" is not used in most english translations nowadays, and is not used in translations in other languages. In Spanish and French the words "cosechar," "recoger" or "maissoner" are used, which indicate harvesting and collecting, rather than a gathering. This makes it clear that the verse is referring to final judgment, in which the Lord will reap the field, and divide the wheat from the tares. In no sense does this prohibit the people of God from gathering, or having truths restored to them in preparation for the Harvest.

Edited December 22, 2013 by halconero