Answer Me This?

[thesometimesaint]

I would agree with you, but does the church?  If so, why the massive resources and effort to bring others into the church if it means very little in terms of salvation?

 

Because we are commanded to.

[Palerider]

I was thinking of Jews as Jews rather than as potential Christians.  How do you see them in salvation history?  Do they remain the Chosen People of God (along with the remainder of Israel, wherever they are) now, prior to any conversion to Christianity?  Is the establishment of the State of Israel merely self-fulfilling prophecy, or the authentic destiny of His people.  Did it mean anything at all in eternal terms that Orson Hyde dedicated Palestine to the gathering?  Or just more nonsense from Joseph Smith?

 

Ahhh. I see.

 

Romans 11:1

 

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid....Vrs 2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew....Vrs. 5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."  I think "this present time" continues to include our own.

 

Then continuing in verse 25. For I would not, brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,....that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Vrs. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Vrs.27. For this is my covenant with them when I shall take away their sins. Vrs. 28. As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

I believe the promises (covenants) made with the Jews in particular and Israel (who is scattered among the gentiles) in general continue to be in force in spite of their failure to recognize the Savior and will continue to be so until the fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles, When the Savior will return and it will be quite obvious at that time that they have been blinded "in part" and that their time to recognize their King has arrived.

 

The covenants remain in force not because of the relative sinfulness or righteousness of Israel but rather for "My (God's) name's sake". You know sometimes God does things because, He said "I would do it" not because it was predicated on our (or the jews) obedience to His laws.......... 

 

That's a great question regarding the establishment of Israel as a nation. I feel that it would have occured regardless of it's being "dedicated" by Orson Hyde. 

 

I wonder if the establishment of Israel as a nation will in the end, be a partially failed effort that will be fully realized just at the precise time when it looks as if complete failure is imminent. And thus the Messiah's full power and glory will be totally and utterly unquestionable to all concerned?

 

What do you think?

Edited December 22, 2013 by Palerider

[Robert F. Smith]

The key word here is "total", as in total damnation.  Since I never used that word and was referring to damnation in the traditional LDS sense, my original point stands.

Ah, but the qualifier is a dead giveaway as to the truth.  The author is painfully aware that what he says makes no sense in Scriptural terms, nor in terms of de facto LDS theology.   So he converts damnation into "total" damnation in order to have his cake and eat it too.  Yes, there are "traditional" assumptions among the Mormons, many of them dead wrong.  And one must engage in special pleading (a fallacy) in order to justify some of them.

[Robert F. Smith]

Ahhh. I see.

 

Romans 11:1

 

"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid....Vrs 2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew....Vrs. 5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."  I think "this present time" continues to include our own.

 

Then continuing in verse 25. For I would not, brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery,....that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Vrs. 26. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: Vrs.27. For this is my covenant with them when I shall take away their sins. Vrs. 28. As concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

 

I believe the promises (covenants) made with the Jews in particular and Israel (who is scattered among the gentiles) in general continue to be in force in spite of their failure to recognize the Savior and will continue to be so until the fulfilling of the times of the Gentiles, When the Savior will return and it will be quite obvious at that time that they have been blinded "in part" and that their time to recognize their King has arrived.

 

The covenants remain in force not because of the relative sinfulness or righteousness of Israel but rather for "My (God's) name's sake". You know sometimes God does things because, He said "I would do it" not because it was predicated on our (or the jews) obedience to His laws.......... 

 

That's a great question regarding the establishment of Israel as a nation. I feel that it would have occured regardless of it's being "dedicated" by Orson Hyde. 

 

I wonder if the establishment of Israel as a nation will in the end, be a partially failed effort that will be fully realized just at the precise time when it looks as if complete failure is imminent. And thus the Messiah's full power and glory will be totally and utterly unquestionable to all concerned?

 

What do you think?

I think that you have done an excellent job of parsing Romans 11 (one of my favorite chapters).

How then would you take these apocalyptic words in Zechariah?

 

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

* * * *

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

* * * *

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

* * * *

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

* * * *

18 ......................the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 ¶ In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

[Palerider]

 

I think that you have done an excellent job of parsing Romans 11 (one of my favorite chapters).

How then would you take these apocalyptic words in Zechariah?

 

Zechariah 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

* * * *

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

* * * *

8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.

9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

* * * *

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 ¶ And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

* * * *

18 ......................the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.

20 ¶ In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

 

 

I take these scriptures as the fulfillment alluded to in my final, yet tightly abridged, statement:

 

"I wonder if the establishment of Israel as a nation will in the end, be a partially failed effort that will be fully realized just at the precise time when it looks as if complete failure is imminent. And thus the Messiah's full power and glory will be totally and utterly unquestionable to all concerned?"

 

One should be cautious however not to assume the Temple will be existing at the time the Savior appears to save His people. 

 

Part of the work He will do "In that day" will be to "restore" Israel to and beyond, it's former glory, and a part of that restoration, aside from the literal gathering, will be the building of His Temple as mentioned in Revelations.  

Edited December 23, 2013 by Palerider

[DBMormon]

I would agree with you, but does the church?  If so, why the massive resources and effort to bring others into the church if it means very little in terms of salvation?

 

While I don't believe it holds any value in terms of ensuring a higher chance at Salvation I did not say it had no blessings or value in other ways.

Think about it this way.  As a parent would you rather see your son in a school that is known for good behavior, service opportunities, teaches responsibility and offers support in hard times or would you rather they go to a school that had the opposite? 

 

God wants us in his Church which is why he makes the effort and instructs his Church to do so.  If we set exaltation aside for a moment we can likely agree that the Church offers a lot

- large family like support in difficult trials.

- community encouragement for you and your children to make good choices

- opportunities to serve others

- callings which give us chances to develop talents and to have personal growth

- to have opportunities to learn how to discern the Holy Ghost

there are dozens of these.  Again I see the pace being quickened by what the Church offers but I don't see God favoring his mormon Children in terms of who finally gets there.

[pogi]

- large family like support in difficult trials.

- community encouragement for you and your children to make good choices

- opportunities to serve others

- callings which give us chances to develop talents and to have personal growth

- to have opportunities to learn how to discern the Holy Ghost

there are dozens of these.  Again I see the pace being quickened by what the Church offers but I don't see God favoring his mormon Children in terms of who finally gets there.

 

I agree with you that we don't have a better chance of salvation.  However, I think that other churches would be offended if you suggested that they did not offer these same things (minus the church callings perhaps). 

 

The only thing that our church offers which makes missionary efforts worth while is the authority of the priesthood.  We offer the opportunity to progress to spiritual planes impossible in any other church, through accepting the gift of the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire, and by heeding God's word through authorized leaders.  We are indeed privileged in this sense.  We may not have a better chance of salvation, but we do have a better chance of spiritual progression in this life (it could be argued that this does indeed increase our chance of salvation, and our chance for damnation).

Edited December 23, 2013 by pogi

[Robert F. Smith]

I take these scriptures as the fulfillment alluded to in my final, yet tightly abridged, statement:

 

"I wonder if the establishment of Israel as a nation will in the end, be a partially failed effort that will be fully realized just at the precise time when it looks as if complete failure is imminent. And thus the Messiah's full power and glory will be totally and utterly unquestionable to all concerned?"

Point taken. 

 

One should be cautious however not to assume the Temple will be existing at the time the Savior appears to save His people.

Some Jews do say that it will only be rebuilt when the Messiah comes, even though they are making preparations for it now.

 

Part of the work He will do "In that day" will be to "restore" Israel to and beyond, it's former glory, and a part of that restoration, aside from the literal gathering, will be the building of His Temple as mentioned in Revelations.

And in Malachi 3:3, perhaps?

 

However, what do you make of Isaiah 2:1-3 in that same context?

[Monster]

I have tried to follow all the post, but I am still thinking no one has really addressed the question why are there are not more mormons? I just can not get my head around the fact the church claims authenticity, yet if that is true why is not God telling more to join? If it is so hard to get a correct answer from God then what is the point of trying for the 99.5% of the world who is not Mormon. Why is God so exclusive in answering prayers for those who are seeking?

Edited December 25, 2013 by Monster

[Palerider]

Point taken. 

 

Some Jews do say that it will only be rebuilt when the Messiah comes, even though they are making preparations for it now.

 

And in Malachi 3:3, perhaps?

 

However, what do you make of Isaiah 2:1-3 in that same context?

 

Yes, Malachi 3:3 will be accomplished as well. Even McKonkie agrees with this. Although he considers it of a temporary nature, I'm not so sure. The indications IIRC are that it will continue for some time. 

 

Isaiah 2:1-3

 

For all intents and purposes considering the geography of Israel proper, Jerusalem was originally settled for it's location in the tops of the mountains of Israel. It had strategic military advantage aside from it's consideration as a holy site.

 

I think verse 4. is revealing here. "And he shall judge among the nations and shall rebuke many people......"  I think the Lord will be present at His Temple when this judging of the nations takes place at this location.

 

Regarding the building of temples in multiple locations, I was wondering if you might have ever read Solomon's dedicatory prayer when the first temple was built?  It's quite informative to me regarding this question. If I wasn't in a rush right now I'd give you the reference but I have the feeling you are quite capable of finding it yourself.

 

More later.

[Palerider]

I have tried to follow all the post, but I am still thinking no one has really addressed the question why are there are not more mormons? I just can not get my head around the fact the church claims authenticity, yet if that is true why is not God telling more to join? If it is so hard to get a correct answer from God then what is the point of trying for the 99.5% of the world who is not Mormon. Why is God so exclusive in answering prayers for those who are seeking?

 

You're not the only one to have asked this same question. When one considers the number of Books of Mormon that have been distributed over the past 183 years, and the number of them that have probably been read without a positive response, it certainly gives one reason to pause.

 

On the church's side, it is easy to say that, "narrow is the way and few there be that find it". Coming to the conclusion that there are a BUNCH of people out there who are either just too worldly to care or are not yet prepared to receive the Gospel.

 

Personally, I think that the "stone cut without hands" described in Daniel that will crush the kingdoms of the earth AND THEN it will continue to grow to become a mountain that will fill the whole earth, doesn't sound like the track the LDS faith is on. 

 

Is the LDS faith A PART of that stone?  Possibly.....

 

In it's own way it does sincerely promote Christ but, one has to sift through some "pyrite" in order to find the real gold.

 

I think there are many around the world who are getting answers to their prayers from God to go in a direction different than the LDS way.

 

But if a person is prepared and seeking God and they happen to run into the LDS missionaries or members and receive a "witness" that this isn't a "Bad" way to go, I think it's because the Lord is more interested in having them get started towards Him than which organization they happen to be joining. He can correct things through His Spirit later on down the road as they grow and mature.

 

Obviously this would have it's limits as in the case of a collective like Jonestown and Jim Jones.

 

Those who claim "Christianity",  run the full spectrum from the originals claiming orthodoxy (such as Catholicism) to the dangerous and utterly ridiculous that I won't mention here. 

Edited December 25, 2013 by Palerider

[DBMormon]

I agree with you that we don't have a better chance of salvation.  However, I think that other churches would be offended if you suggested that they did not offer these same things (minus the church callings perhaps). 

 

The only thing that our church offers which makes missionary efforts worth while is the authority of the priesthood.  We offer the opportunity to progress to spiritual planes impossible in any other church, through accepting the gift of the Holy Ghost and baptism of fire, and by heeding God's word through authorized leaders.  We are indeed privileged in this sense.  We may not have a better chance of salvation, but we do have a better chance of spiritual progression in this life (it could be argued that this does indeed increase our chance of salvation, and our chance for damnation).

 

 

I Agree other churches would disagree, but that doesn't change my stance.  I see very few other Christian faiths requiring as much from it's members through the week and even on the Sabbath.  Callings and the family unity in the Church, Meetings one must attend, and things like FHE and family councils along with many other such things require a good faithful LDS to be contemplating his faith almost unceasingly.  

[rodheadlee]

I have tried to follow all the post, but I am still thinking no one has really addressed the question why are there are not more mormons? I just can not get my head around the fact the church claims authenticity, yet if that is true why is not God telling more to join? If it is so hard to get a correct answer from God then what is the point of trying for the 99.5% of the world who is not Mormon. Why is God so exclusive in answering prayers for those who are seeking?

I don't think they are hearing the answer correctly. I don't thik I hear the answers to my prayers correctly all the time, 50% of the time maybe. It's so easy to put our own spin on what the still quiet voice said to us.

[thesometimesaint]

I have tried to follow all the post, but I am still thinking no one has really addressed the question why are there are not more mormons? I just can not get my head around the fact the church claims authenticity, yet if that is true why is not God telling more to join? If it is so hard to get a correct answer from God then what is the point of trying for the 99.5% of the world who is not Mormon. Why is God so exclusive in answering prayers for those who are seeking?

 

I don't expect us to be anymore that a small minority in this life. One is that Nephi saw our day and remarked that we were few in number, and two what percentage of salt does it take to flavor the whole loaf?

[Bernard Gui]

I don't expect us to be anymore that a small minority in this life. One is that Nephi saw our day and remarked that we were few in number, and two what percentage of salt does it take to flavor the whole loaf?

And three, the parable of the sower.....

[Monster]

Some good posts. If I had to draw a consensus it would be that there is good in many churches and that God may or may not use other organizations to get people on the path to Mormonism. It is a process and not something that all people can jump into quickly. I can see the logic of that position. Not saying I agree with it but I do give it plausability.

 

The other point that has been made is the notion of the wide path narrow gate. That one i dislike as being to exclusive and arbitrary. It sets mormonism up as some kind of morality club that a chosen few get to join.

 

Ultimately it comes down to faith again. If the LDS church is the one and only true church you must take it on faith. The evidence to support it does not justify the claim. But that is true of almost all religions.

[Calm]

I prefer the mountain analogy....at the beginning, multiple wide and easy pathways alongside some very difficult but strengthening ones giving good foundational practice for later climbs. Depending on if one choses to follow the map (my yoke is light) or go exploring one's own or in groups, one may have a very different experience even if all are heading upwards.

Only those who completely turn aside to wander among the dark in the ravines and caves at the base of the mountain never turn their face to the light, the Sun, the Son. Paths can merge and diverge, on may join one group's path for awhile or stick with the same one all the way. Eventually as one moves closer to the top, working, open and not deadended paths become fewer and fewer and the best paths begin to merge, dispensing with their differences and focusing on how to better learn from their maps and guides (may not be the Map and Guide....but all maps end up being copies that get interpreted as much by the cimber's expectations as the guides and Guide's instruction and the guides are all trying to emulate the Guide).

Eventually there will only be one remaining that takes you all the way there, the one that was strait and narrow from beginning to end, the one with the Guide who knows his way intimately around the pits and cliffs and is willing to carry a great deal of your burden for you. The many intersections with other paths have ended as one gets close to the final destination...the question becomes not if I want to go higher which path do I go, but by this time we are experienced enough with bith climbing and our Guide to know the question is "how high do I really want to go"

Edited December 25, 2013 by calmoriah

[cdowis]

You're not the only one to have asked this same question. When one considers the number of Books of Mormon that have been distributed over the past 183 years, and the number of them that have probably been read without a positive response, it certainly gives one reason to pause.

 

 

Are you serious?  I think the key here is "probably". 

 

My experience is that most people don't read anything.  Those who do read, do so for entertainment.  Many of those who read a book seriously for its content are not interested in a religious experience.

 

Those who seriously read for a religious experience don't have the focus and patience etc etc, but just a shout and halluljah experience.  They's just try it once, but do not have the desire for an Alma 32 experience.

 

You might want to read the Parable of the Sower (if you have the patience).

Edited December 26, 2013 by cdowis

[Palerider]

1.  

Are you serious?  I think the key here is "probably". 

 

My experience is that most people don't read anything.  Those who do read, do so for entertainment.  Many of those who read a book seriously for its content are not interested in a religious experience.

 

Those who seriously read for a religious experience don't have the focus and patience etc etc, but just a shout and halluljah experience.  They's just try it once, but do not have the desire for an Alma 32 experience.

 

You might want to read the Parable of the Sower (if you have the patience).

 

 

In fact I have read the Parable of the Sower many times and I see how it applies quite well to true Christianity in general. But with Mormonism we aren't talking about a straight and narrow gate (to mention another parable), there we are talking about the quest for the Great Northwest Passage........which if you didn't know is non-existent...... 

 

It may be anecdotal but we had several people on my mission that read and prayed about the Book of Mormon without getting a positive response or having a burning bosom experience of any nature. One family in particular was quite interested in our message and read right up to the point where they found that their own people (lamanites) had been cursed by God with a dark skin. That bird flapped it's wings but it wouldn't fly...... 

 

Looking back.......I don't blame them. I think they were right to reject it.  

Edited December 26, 2013 by Palerider

[Robert F. Smith]

I have tried to follow all the post, but I am still thinking no one has really addressed the question why are there are not more mormons? I just can not get my head around the fact the church claims authenticity, yet if that is true why is not God telling more to join? If it is so hard to get a correct answer from God then what is the point of trying for the 99.5% of the world who is not Mormon. Why is God so exclusive in answering prayers for those who are seeking?

Mormons, like the Jews, are few in number when compared to the immense populations of the world, yet claim certain powerful promises.  I am not aware of any account in which God's people outnumber everybody else, or that that should be considered a sign of the true congregation of God.  Seems to me the opposite of God's way, including allowing all peoples to make up their own minds as to which way to go.  The same obtained in the meridian of time, in which Jesus had a few followers and was himself abused and crucified like a common criminal.  Triumphalism may be out of order in the True Church.  The dogged determination of God's own Saints, few as they be, sounds more in keeping with Scripture.

 

Likewise, Sevenbak called our attention to 1 Nephi 14:12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

[Robert F. Smith]

............................................................

In fact I have read the Parable of the Sower many times and I see how it applies quite well to true Christianity in general. But with Mormonism we aren't talking about a straight and narrow gate (to mention another parable), there we are talking about the quest for the Great Northwest Passage........which if you didn't know is non-existent...... 

 

It may be anecdotal but we had several people on my mission that read and prayed about the Book of Mormon without getting a positive response or having a burning bosom experience of any nature. One family in particular was quite interested in our message and read right up to the point where they found that their own people (lamanites) had been cursed by God with a dark skin. That bird flapped it's wings but it wouldn't fly...... 

 

Looking back.......I don't blame them. I think they were right to reject it.  

 

Their response is at least understandable.

[Ahab]

Why are there not more Mormons?

because everyone who wants to join the Church has already joined.   There may be more later, though.  The end is not yet.

 

If the church is true and God answers prayers why are there not many many more members of the church?

Why would you think we would have more members?  It's not as if everybody wants to be a Mormon.

 

So either there is not one true church or God does not answer prayers equally. Which is it?

God does not answer prayers equally, and that's because not all people pray to God equally well.

 

I am not trying to be troublesome, it is just that this is the issue that troubles me most about the church and religion in general. Claims that there is one path and God told me what it is.

God has told me what it is and he's also told me that not all people want to join his Church now.  Otherwise they would have. Right?