Suffer Even As I

[janderich]

In D&C 19:16-17 we read, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I."

 

How do you understand this last statement, "they must suffer even as I"?

 

1. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must first suffer to the same extent that Christ suffered.

2. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must suffer like Christ. However only to a lesser extent.

3. If we don't repent we must suffer together with him. In other words as we suffer he suffers. Until we repent he continues to suffer with us. The suffering of both of us end when we repent.

4. Another possible reading of which I am not aware.

 

[CV75]

In D&C 19:16-17 we read, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I."

 

How do you understand this last statement, "they must suffer even as I"?

 

1. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must first suffer to the same extent that Christ suffered.

2. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must suffer like Christ. However only to a lesser extent.

3. If we don't repent we must suffer together with him. In other words as we suffer he suffers. Until we repent he continues to suffer with us. The suffering of both of us end when we repent.

4. Another possible reading of which I am not aware.

Verse 19 says He finished His preparations, so I don’t think He continues to suffer for sin, especially since He is victorious over sin and death and He is instead readying for His recompense and vengeance (Hebrews 10:30). That would rule out #3.

 

I think the suffering of the unrepentant causes them to “suffer both body and spirit—and would that [they] might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink…” In our case, the suffering in the body is more a reduced glory in the resurrection, and not to bleed at every pore in mortality, since Jesus’ atoning sacrifice overcame mortal sin and death so that the Judgment would only entail spiritual sin (refusal to accept Him fully in immortality) and spiritual death (separation into a kingdom separate from His presence). If this is what #2 means, I would say that is it and not #1.

[Glenn101]

Christ makes it pretty clear that the suffering by the unrepentant will be much on the order of what He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemanee.

The very next verse in Section 19 lays this out. I quote also verse 15 for context.

 

"15 Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest I smite you by the rod of my mouth, and by my wrath, and by my anger, and your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not.

 

18 Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might bnot drink the bitter cup, and shrink—"

 

I have heard and I believe read, that a normal mortal man could not bear up under the pain that such suffering would entail. But when we have our just desserts rendered unto us, we will not be mortal.

 

The difference in the suffering that the unrepentant will face is different from that whicj the Sabior experienced in that Jesus suffered for all of the sins of mankind while any of us who stand before the Lord on judgement day guilty of sins for which we have not repented, we will only suffer for those sins. But we need to heed the warning in verse 15 and avail ourselves of the full atonement and not have Jesus waste any part of that on us.

 

I disagree somewhat with CV75 on his take that the suffering on man's part will not be a physical suffering such as that which caused the Savior to bleed from every pore. The Savior truly did atone for every sin that was ever committed or will be committed, but He also says that repentance is necessary to reap the benefits of that Atonement. I think that we need to take Christ at His word when He says that the unrepentant will suffer the way that He did.

 

Glenn

[teddyaware]

In D&C 19:16-17 we read, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I."

 

How do you understand this last statement, "they must suffer even as I"?

 

1. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must first suffer to the same extent that Christ suffered.

2. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must suffer like Christ. However only to a lesser extent.

3. If we don't repent we must suffer together with him. In other words as we suffer he suffers. Until we repent he continues to suffer with us. The suffering of both of us end when we repent.

4. Another possible reading of which I am not aware.

 

Christ suffered spiritual, as well as physical death, for each of us. If we don't repent, after death we will suffer spiritual death as well. For most, this suffering of spiritual death in hell will last as long as is needed in order to awaken their souls to the need to have faith in Christ, come to an acute awareness of their own personal iniquity, repent of that iniquity with genuine sincerity, and then be cleansed of their sins preparatory to the resurrection, when they will become heirs of salvation in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions.   

 

First speaking of the fate of the sons of perdition, the following selection from D&C 76 goes on to speak of the fate of those who have not committed the unpardonable sin, as have the sons of perdition, but who eventually will inherit a measure of eternal glory in the resurrection:

 

36 These are they who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels—

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

9 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power and made by him; (D&C 76)

 

Alma the Younger was one of those who suffered the experience of having to endure spiritual death, even as Christ so suffered. He describes this inexpressibly horrible experience of having to suffer for his own sins, in a hell-like condition for three days and three nights, until faith in Christ and repentance finally set him free. What you are about to read is an actual account of someone who suffered even as Christ suffered. As a consequence of Alma's testimony, we need not wonder what suffering as Christ suffered is all about. And so we read: 

 

12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

Edited November 17, 2013 by teddyaware

[janderich]

CV7 I agree with you that Christ has already suffered for our sins so he does not continue to suffer directly, #3 would have to be amended.

 

It sounds like from the few responses that some form of limited suffering would be ours. So while we might suffer like him it will not be to the extent and/or the intensity he suffered. 

 

Also, in section 19 it speaks of an end to punishment (v6). So how does that punishment end? Do you think that the only way punishment ends is through repentance? If so, then it seems the sons of perdition will not have an end to suffering. Or is there some limited amount of suffering for every sin? If there is some limited amount of suffering then it seems that the person may not change and yet be freed. This would appear to contradict eternal law.

Edited November 17, 2013 by janderich

[The Nehor]

It is like His suffering but I believe it is restricted to your own sins only.

 

The Atonement still takes effect once you repent and get out of hell and get a kingdom of glory.

 

Unless you are Perdition and keep sinning and keep extending the suffering. Don't be that guy.

[Calm]

It is like His suffering but I believe it is restricted to your own sins only.

The Atonement still takes effect once you repent and get out of hell and get a kingdom of glory.

Unless you are Perdition and keep sinning and keep extending the suffering. Don't be that guy.

I agree it is for our own sins, but I think that includes the sins of others we are responsible for through our neglect and abuse of them to the extent they were influenced without choosing to be, such as children growing up in an immoral environment may find it difficult to be moral. I think the pain we suffer is from a full awareness of the harm and pain we caused..we suffer as we made others suffer...only we are much more aware of it all due to our situation.

And it doesn't have to be pain to be hellish suffering, I'd rather have significant pain than a panic attack...depression..it's been too long since I had that severely, but that probably qualifies as well...wanting to cease to exist is not a fun experience.

Edited November 17, 2013 by calmoriah

[CV75]

I disagree somewhat with CV75 on his take that the suffering on man's part will not be a physical suffering such as that which caused the Savior to bleed from every pore. The Savior truly did atone for every sin that was ever committed or will be committed, but He also says that repentance is necessary to reap the benefits of that Atonement. I think that we need to take Christ at His word when He says that the unrepentant will suffer the way that He did.

I think this kind of physical suffering that occurs in this life is often part of repentance, like Paul, Alma, and Zeezrom experienced.

 

Alma 36 gives us a description of the pains of a “damned soul,” which to me conveys one who has left this mortal sphere. Whether he means “soul” as the body and the spirit together (after the  resurrection), or just in the spirit (the spirit world), these pains have to do with remembering sins and iniquities, the memories of wickedness, and are replaced by the feeling of joy and rejoicing, and not remembering the spiritual pain any more. The physical effects of this psychic pain seem to be reserved for this life only, as Jesus experienced in the Garden of Gethsemane

 

I don’t see how a resurrected body could bleed at every pore, or would experience the mortal physical pain that Jesus vanquished for everyone regardless of their spiritual state (all are resurrected). I do see how an unrepentant spirit on the last day would be quickened by a degree of glory matching his rebelliousness, and thus suffer the misery of being separated from God.

 

So I take His words to refer to His spiritual suffering, which had the unimaginable corresponding physical effects in His mortal body.

[CV75]

CV7 I agree with you that Christ has already suffered for our sins so he does not continue to suffer directly, #3 would have to be amended.

 

It sounds like from the few responses that some form of limited suffering would be ours. So while we might suffer like him it will not be to the extent and/or the intensity he suffered. 

 

Also, in section 19 it speaks of an end to punishment (v6). So how does that punishment end? Do you think that the only way punishment ends is through repentance? If so, then it seems the sons of perdition will not have an end to suffering. Or is there some limited amount of suffering for every sin? If there is some limited amount of suffering then it seems that the person may not change and yet be freed. This would appear to contradict eternal law.

I think the punishment ends when an individual resigns himself to the kingdom the Lord has determined he merits according to eternal law. This can be accomplished without repentance, like the scofflaw that pays for his crimes but continues to rationalize—though in this case, I’m not sure how much latitude there is for sin in the resurrection, or if whatever people feel and think outside of God’s personal presence, administration or ministration (as in D&C 76) even qualifies as sin anymore.

 

But the memories that cause the suffering, as described in Alma 36, could fade with acquiescence or the lack of progress or the limitations to further intelligence inherent in lesser kingdoms. After all, the Lord suffered for those (the persons, their sins or their memories) too, and being victorious, has put them away where He need not deal with them. Maybe this is how every knee shall bow and every tongue confess to the Lord their true internal state, and live with it, no matter what kingdom of glory they inherit.

 

I don’t think we can know much about the sons of perdition unless we become one ourselves (D&C 76: 44-48). But so complete is their rebellion that it doesn’t seem that they can either repent or forget.

[CV75]

Alma the Younger was one of those who suffered the experience of having to endure spiritual death, even as Christ so suffered. He describes this inexpressibly horrible experience of having to suffer for his own sins, in a hell-like condition for three days and three nights, until faith in Christ and repentance finally set him free. What you are about to read is an actual account of someone who suffered even as Christ suffered. As a consequence of Alma's testimony, we need not wonder what suffering as Christ suffered is all about. And so we read: 

I think people go through this same suffering for spiritual death, which is what prompts them to repent. Because of the magnetude of his sins, or his sensitivity to them, Alma suffered to the extent that he did. But we are all spiritually dead until we repent. With Alma, his repentance happened dramatically and at once. But for most, it happens more gradually.

 

That is how we can feel this way and repent in the spirit world before the resurrection. In the flesh, we have physical manifestations; in the spirit we cannot; in the resurrceted body I don't see how we can since the opportunity to feel this way unto repentance is over. After that, we just feel that way until we pay the price (or get used to it) and we don't feel that way anymore, or worry about feeling that way any more.

[teddyaware]

I think people go through this same suffering for spiritual death, which is what prompts them to repent. Because of the magnetude of his sins, or his sensitivity to them, Alma suffered to the extent that he did. But we are all spiritually dead until we repent. With Alma, his repentance happened dramatically and at once. But for most, it happens more gradually.

 

That is how we can feel this way and repent in the spirit world before the resurrection. In the flesh, we have physical manifestations; in the spirit we cannot; in the resurrceted body I don't see how we can since the opportunity to feel this way unto repentance is over. After that, we just feel that way until we pay the price (or get used to it) and we don't feel that way anymore, or worry about feeling that way any more.

 

Good insights.

[Glenn101]

CV75,

   I don't know that an immortal body is impervious to pain. I don't know really what an immortal body is and is not at this point, so I really cannot respond either way. I am just going by the Savior's words in the referenced scriptures. I do agree that an immortal body would not "bleed at every pore" because, as I understand it, blood will not be the fluid coursing through our veins in the resurrection.

 

Glenn

[Calm]

Do we (as in humans in general) go to Spirit Boarding School/Hell and suffer for our sins until we repent (if we do) before or after resurrection?

[pmccombs1]

Verse 19 says He finished His preparations, so I don’t think He continues to suffer for sin, especially since He is victorious over sin and death and He is instead readying for His recompense and vengeance (Hebrews 10:30). That would rule out #3.

 

You have a very linear understanding of time. Some might say that, in first-century Judea, Jesus still suffers for our sins. Humans have stopped experiencing that time period, but it isn't gone. You and I are just flatlanders who can't experience it anymore.

 

So, in a sense, Jesus' suffering is eternal. Of course, so then must ours be, if we ever enter that realm where time becomes to us like depth--experienced at once with all created things.  

[janderich]

Do we (as in humans in general) go to Spirit Boarding School/Hell and suffer for our sins until we repent (if we do) before or after resurrection?

This is similar to my second question. It seems to me that sin causes suffering. When we change and obey the law of God (ie repent) our personal suffering ends. I see no other way this suffering ends, it's simply the consequence of eternal law. At the resurrection we receive a glorified body but there is no promise that we magically change to good creatures. Instead we are given to understand that we are restored "carnal for carnal", "devilish for devilish", and "good for that which is good".

[CV75]

CV75,

   I don't know that an immortal body is impervious to pain. I don't know really what an immortal body is and is not at this point, so I really cannot respond either way. I am just going by the Savior's words in the referenced scriptures. I do agree that an immortal body would not "bleed at every pore" because, as I understand it, blood will not be the fluid coursing through our veins in the resurrection.

 

Glenn

I don’t believe that the immortal body is impervious to physical sensation, but the point about suffering, and how resurrected people suffer, is where I begin to wonder. For example, bleeding, injury, illness, death, and other forms of corporeal punishment as we know them don’t seem to be consistent with the descriptions of what resurrected bodies are like or do.

 

I do think that the unrepentant suffer in the body, but in a way that is very different than what we’ve come to know as mortal pain. The physical suffering the Savior endured in a mortal frame (Mosiah 3:7 as well as in the Garden), a function of His taking upon Himself the pains and sins of all mankind, would have to be transformed into something different for the unrepentant immortal soul He has resurrected as a result of that very suffering.

 

Here’s how I see it: The resurrected immortal body, with its spirit and body inseparably connected, is a “spiritual body” (I Corinthians 15:40; Alma 11:45, D&C 88:27). It is quickened by the glory the soul is willing to receive (D&C 88:32). So thoroughly integrated are the body and the spirit at this point that I don’t think the physical suffering and the spiritual suffering can be teased apart. Quite the opposite is true in this life. For example, from personal experience, I once experienced the most profound spiritual comfort in the midst of the most excruciating pain of my life.

 

So I’m thinking, where the Savior suffered spiritual death in the mortal body (which resulted in attendant mortal agony and required the ministration of angels to restore His physical condition to a certain level), the unrepentant soul will suffer spiritual death in the resurrected body, which cannot be injured or die, and requires no further physical restoration.

 

If this is so, where such a soul is punished for his own sins, his punishment is to remain spiritually dead as reflected in his less glorified physical body and by his abode in a lesser kingdom of glory. In this way he suffers as the Lord did—the suffering of spiritual death, which is the final judgment for him. In this sense his suffering is not overcome in the same way the Savior was able to overcome as God because he forsook the Lord’s grace on this point.

[CV75]

You have a very linear understanding of time. Some might say that, in first-century Judea, Jesus still suffers for our sins. Humans have stopped experiencing that time period, but it isn't gone. You and I are just flatlanders who can't experience it anymore.

 

So, in a sense, Jesus' suffering is eternal. Of course, so then must ours be, if we ever enter that realm where time becomes to us like depth--experienced at once with all created things.  

I’m using the D&C 19 definition of eternal.

 

So in my thinking, Jesus’ suffering is God’s suffering. A resurrected person’s punishment is God’s punishment imposed upon him.

 

In one sense, I can see this punishment being linear, occurring between the onset of physical death and the final disposition of the unrepentant resurrected soul in the Final Judgment (in which case, the punishment of spiritual death is rendered once, the person enters his kingdom, and there is no more sentencing). On the other hand, the suffering is permanent or never-ending in that the person is stuck with that Final Judgment. Jesus suffered and overcame this spiritual death and is not stuck with it. It is no longer a point of wanting to shrink from it, but instead a point of vengeance and recompense.

[CV75]

Do we (as in humans in general) go to Spirit Boarding School/Hell and suffer for our sins until we repent (if we do) before or after resurrection?

I believe we can suffer in this way throuhgout mortality, and can continue in the spirit world, right up until the opportunity to repent is not longer offered. I think as we head in the right direction, our faith and hope are compunded, and the Lord's grace assists and enables us to repent as much as we possibly can prior to the resurrection. I'm not sure there is any opportunity to repent between the resurrection and Final Judgment since according to D&C 88 we are quickened by the glory we are willing to receive anyway.

[CV75]

This is similar to my second question. It seems to me that sin causes suffering. When we change and obey the law of God (ie repent) our personal suffering ends. I see no other way this suffering ends, it's simply the consequence of eternal law. At the resurrection we receive a glorified body but there is no promise that we magically change to good creatures. Instead we are given to understand that we are restored "carnal for carnal", "devilish for devilish", and "good for that which is good".

This is interesting, because it gets to the idea that even when someone suffers the punishment and pays the penalty, he still suffers the consequences. Some of those conseuqences include a loss of agency, glory, happiness, which have their own kind of suffering though I suppose someone could get used to the suffering (they are willing to receive only so much). We see this in this life, people that that willing to settle for less and not get help.

[teddyaware]

This is similar to my second question. It seems to me that sin causes suffering. When we change and obey the law of God (ie repent) our personal suffering ends. I see no other way this suffering ends, it's simply the consequence of eternal law. At the resurrection we receive a glorified body but there is no promise that we magically change to good creatures. Instead we are given to understand that we are restored "carnal for carnal", "devilish for devilish", and "good for that which is good".

 

The scriptures are clear: After the resurrection, the only people who will remain carnal and devilish are the sons of perdition. All others will be heirs of salvation in one of the Father's many mansions of glory. And all but the sons of perdition will receive a remission of sins and be redeemed from the baleful influence of the devil prior to the resurrection. And so we read...

 

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels--

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed (forgiven) in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power (i.e. those who are not sons of perdition) and made by him;

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[Glenn101]

The scriptures are clear: After the resurrection, the only people who will remain carnal and devilish are the sons of perdition. All others will be heirs of salvation in one of the Father's many mansions of glory. And all but the sons of perdition will receive a remission of sins and be redeemed from the baleful influence of the devil prior to the resurrection. And so we read...

 

36 These are they (the sons of perdition) who shall go away into the lake of fire and brimstone, with the devil and his angels--

37 And the only ones on whom the second death shall have any power;

38 Yea, verily, the only ones who shall not be redeemed (forgiven) in the due time of the Lord, after the sufferings of his wrath.

39 For all the rest shall be brought forth by the resurrection of the dead, through the triumph and the glory of the Lamb, who was slain, who was in the bosom of the Father before the worlds were made.

40 And this is the gospel, the glad tidings, which the voice out of the heavens bore record unto us—

41 That he came into the world, even Jesus, to be crucified for the world, and to bear the sins of the world, and to sanctify the world, and to cleanse it from all unrighteousness;

42 That through him all might be saved whom the Father had put into his power (i.e. those who are not sons of perdition) and made by him;

 

That all who are not sons of perdition will receive a remission of their sins contradicts the passages that we have just been discussing. Only the repentant will receive a remission of their sins. The unrepentant will have to suffer just like jesus said they would. I am not going to argue with Jesus.

 

But that suffering, like that of Jesus, will not last forever. Once the price has been paid, they will receive their kingdom of glory.

 

Glenn

[teddyaware]

That all who are not sons of perdition will receive a remission of their sins contradicts the passages that we have just been discussing. Only the repentant will receive a remission of their sins. The unrepentant will have to suffer just like jesus said they would. I am not going to argue with Jesus.

 

But that suffering, like that of Jesus, will not last forever. Once the price has been paid, they will receive their kingdom of glory.

 

Glenn

 

They will never be able to pay the price in full. Only Christ can do that. All they can do is suffer for their own sins until they come unto Christ and repent. Till then they will suffer until they are forgiven by the only One who has the power to forgive. It's all spelled out in D&C 138...

 

28 And I wondered at the words of Peter—wherein he said that the Son of God preached unto the spirits in prison (i.e.those suffering for their sins in hell), who sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah—and how it was possible for him to preach to those spirits and perform the necessary labor among them in so short a time.

29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth (i.e. those suffering for their sins in hell), to teach them;

30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel (i.e. faith in Christ, repentance and remission of sins through Christ) to them that were in darkness (i.e. those suffering for their sins in hell), even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. (D&C 138)

 

In light of the above, if the wicked spirits suffering in the spirit prison (hell) can eventually pay for their own sins, why did the Lord bother to send those authorized messengers to carry the light of the Gospel of Christ to them? Are you saying that even though these spirits who were suffering for their sins in the spirit prison had the gospel preached to them, that the preaching of the gospel of Christ ultimately had no effect and that these people had to continue suffering for their sins without a hope of receiving a remission? Again I ask, why bother to go through all the muss and fuss of carrying the light of the Gospel of Christ to the wicked in hell if it's just a waste of time and effort? What a cruel blow to preach the gospel of Christ to those suffering for their sins in the spirit prison, but in the end to have all that preaching and teaching amount to nothing more than but a meaningless exercise in frustration.

 

Please remove all preconceived notions from your mind and carefully read and ponder D&C 138; then tell me you still don't believe those suffering for their own sins in hell can receive a remission of sins through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ by the Lord's appointed spirit world messengers?   

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[Stargazer]

In D&C 19:16-17 we read, "For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I."

 

How do you understand this last statement, "they must suffer even as I"?

 

1. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must first suffer to the same extent that Christ suffered.

2. If we don't repent our suffering will end but we must suffer like Christ. However only to a lesser extent.

3. If we don't repent we must suffer together with him. In other words as we suffer he suffers. Until we repent he continues to suffer with us. The suffering of both of us end when we repent.

4. Another possible reading of which I am not aware.

My understanding of this whole thing differs somewhat from some others, who think that Christ suffered additively for every sin that has ever been and will ever be committed. However, this does not seem adequate. The keyword here is "infinite atonement". Christ never sinned, and yet he took the punishment for sin upon himself. Of course you cannot divide by zero in mathematics, but pretend that you can. 1 divided by successively smaller numbers, approaching zero, eventually leads to a value that approaches infinity. So by suffering at all, unsdeservedly, Christ suffers infinitely. You, with your plethora of unrepented sins will suffer 1 / 1 = 1. You will atoned for your own sins, and yours alone. Christ, however, atones for all those who take his yoke upon them, and thus they need not suffer,

Here's a fact: all it takes for you to be banned from the presence of the Father is ONE unrepented sin. Let's say that you managed to pull off a miracle, and committed no other sin than one time using the name of God in vain. And let's say that you did not repent of it. Will that ONE sin keep you out of the Father's presence? Yep! You are just as toast in that regard as, say, Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. And unrepented of, that one sin will be required at your hands.

"...if they would not repent they must suffer even as I" means that you and Butch get to experience all of what Jesus experienced starting at the Garden of Gethsemane until He gave up His spirit. If it was hard for Jesus to take, well, then it will be hard for you to take, too.

All of this supposed doctrine about Jesus suffering sins additively for everyone (or at least those who don't accept His sacrifice) hasn't a leg to stand on, scripturally. It is folklore, nothing more. There is no table of punishment available in the scriptures that says for cursing one time you get 10 lashes with the atonement whip, or 100 lashes with the atonement whip for adultery. The scripture says "infinite atonement," and "God's punishment".

If you disagree, please cite me a scripture that speaks of additive atonement, or anything that supports that notion.

Edited November 19, 2013 by Stargazer

[Calm]

They will never be able to pay the price in full.

 

Infinite time to suffer for their own finite sins...why couldn't they?

[teddyaware]

Infinite time to suffer for their own finite sins...why couldn't they?

 

Because, unlike Christ, they are not infinite and eternal beings but merely fallen humans. Alma taught:

 

"...there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world." (Alma 34)

 

So they can suffer for their own sins but because they are not infinite and eternal beings the scales of justice will never balance. They'll just suffer forever and the suffering will never end. So in a sense you're right, they do have an infinite time to suffer. But we are told, except for the sons of perdition, suffering for sin comes to an end at the resurrection.

 

Why is it so hard to believe Christ will eventually forgive the sins of those who suffer for sin in the spirit world? Carefully read and ponder Doctrine and Covenants 138, and then tell me if we don't learn there that those who are suffering for sin in the spirit prison are taught by divine messengers that they can be freed from their suffering by repenting and coming unto Christ.

 

"30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead.

31 And the chosen messengers went forth to declare the acceptable day of the Lord and proclaim liberty to the captives who were bound, even unto all who would repent of their sins and receive the gospel.

32 Thus was the gospel preached to those who had died in their sins, without a knowledge of the truth, or in transgression, having rejected the prophets." (D&C 138)

 

Powerful stuff.

 

Additionally, D&C 76 tells us the only beings who cannot obtain forgiveness from God are the sons of perdition>

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware