Suffer Even As I

[janderich]

They will never be able to pay the price in full. Only Christ can do that. All they can do is suffer for their own sins until they come unto Christ and repent. Till then they will suffer until they are forgiven by the only One who has the power to forgive. It's all spelled out in D&C 138...

 

In light of the above, if the wicked spirits suffering in the spirit prison (hell) can eventually pay for their own sins, why did the Lord bother to send those authorized messengers to carry the light of the Gospel of Christ to them? Are you saying that even though these spirits, who were suffering for their sins in the spirit prison, had the gospel preached to them, that the preaching of the gospel of Christ ultimately had no effect and that these people had to continue suffering for their sins without a hope of receiving a remission? Again I ask, why bother to go through all the muss and fuss of carrying the light of the Gospel of Christ to the wicked in hell if it's just a waste of time and effort? What a cruel blow to preach the gospel of Christ to those suffering for their sins in the spirit prison, but in the end to have all that preaching and teaching amount to nothing more than but a meaningless exercise in frustration.

 

Please remove all preconceived notions from your mind and carefully read and ponder D&C 138; then tell me you still don't believe those suffering for their own sins in hell can receive a remission of sins through the preaching of the Gospel of Christ by the Lord's appointed spirit world messengers?   

I agree that a person cannot pay for their own sins. As Stargazer said there is not a given amount of suffering for each sin. The way one is freed from sin is simply by repenting. Therefore, it seems that you are saying that all people, except the sons of perdition, will repent before final judgment. Is this correct? 

 

Also, even though these have repented, those in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive the presence of the Father, and those in the Telestial kingdom will not receive the presence of the Father or the Son. If this is so, then even those who have repented before the end will not necessarily be received into the celestial kingdom. Therefore this would seem to indicate that a person must not only repent but repent before certain stages or they will not inherit the celestial kingdom. Do you believe this?

[teddyaware]

Delete

Edited November 19, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

I agree that a person cannot pay for their own sins. As Stargazer said there is not a given amount of suffering for each sin. The way one is freed from sin is simply by repenting. Therefore, it seems that you are saying that all people, except the sons of perdition, will repent before final judgment. Is this correct? 

 

Also, even though these have repented, those in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive the presence of the Father, and those in the Telestial kingdom will not receive the presence of the Father or the Son. If this is so, then even those who have repented before the end will not necessarily be received into the celestial kingdom. Therefore this would seem to indicate that a person must not only repent but repent before certain stages or they will not inherit the celestial kingdom. Do you believe this?

 

 

Precisely. The more punishment and time needed to bring a soul around to a true state of contrition, the lower the degree of glory.

[CV75]

From D&C 29 (and other places such as Alma 34), the time to repent is in this life, which I understand to include the spirit world prior to the resurrection. After that, repentance is simply not possible, even if we pay the price for our sins – I think that is the whole idea.

 

  42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.

  43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

  44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

  45 For they love darkness rather than light [in degrees, of course, per D&C 76], and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

 

Actually, I don't plan to be in that predicament! And I try to help others get out of it!

 

But verse 44 speaks to what Christ suffered for the repentant (the spriitual fall), and the unrepentant must suffer it.

 

I think the Lord's description of His suffering in the flesh is to remind just just how serious a price spiritual death is, if it can do that to the mortal body, somthing everyone no matter how faithful or wicked can relate to as not ever wanting to have to go through. Those of us with a conscience understand the spiritual pain that is being referred to.

[teddyaware]

From D&C 29 (and other places such as Alma 34), the time to repent is in this life, which I understand to include the spirit world prior to the resurrection. After that, repentance is simply not possible, even if we pay the price for our sins – I think that is the whole idea.

 

  42 But, behold, I say unto you that I, the Lord God, gave unto Adam and unto his seed, that they should not die as to the temporal death, until I, the Lord God, should send forth angels to declare unto them repentance and redemption, through faith on the name of mine Only Begotten Son.

  43 And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe;

  44 And they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;

  45 For they love darkness rather than light [in degrees, of course, per D&C 76], and their deeds are evil, and they receive their wages of whom they list to obey.

 

Actually, I don't plan to be in that predicament! And I try to help others get out of it!

 

But verse 44 speaks to what Christ suffered for the repentant (the spriitual fall), and the unrepentant must suffer it.

 

I think the Lord's description of His suffering in the flesh is to remind just just how serious a price spiritual death is, if it can do that to the mortal body, somthing everyone no matter how faithful or wicked can relate to as not ever wanting to have to go through. Those of us with a conscience understand the spiritual pain that is being referred to.

 

I agree with this.

[Stargazer]

Because, unlike Christ, they are not infinite and eternal beings but merely fallen humans. Alma taught:

 

"...there can be nothing which is short of an infinite atonement which will suffice for the sins of the world." (Alma 34)

 

So they can suffer for their own sins but because they are not infinite and eternal beings the scales of justice will never balance. They'll just suffer forever and the suffering will never end. So in a sense you're right, they do have an infinite time to suffer. But we are told, except for the sons of perdition, suffering for sin comes to an end at the resurrection.

 

No they will not suffer forever, and the suffering will end.

This is made very clear in D&C 19:

 

6 Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

7 Again, it is written eternal damnation; wherefore it is more express than other scriptures, that it might work upon the hearts of the children of men, altogether for my name’s glory.

8 Wherefore, I will explain unto you this mystery, for it is meet unto you to know even as mine apostles.

9 I speak unto you that are chosen in this thing, even as one, that you may enter into my arest.

10 For, behold, the mystery of godliness, how great is it! For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore—

11 Eternal punishment is God’s punishment.

12 Endless punishment is God’s punishment.

And, the scales MUST balance, or God would cease to be God. And they will balance, but the suffering that they endure and complete is only sufficient to balance the books for them, but not take them farther unto justification, something that requires the blood of Christ. And where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

Edited November 20, 2013 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

I agree that a person cannot pay for their own sins. As Stargazer said there is not a given amount of suffering for each sin. The way one is freed from sin is simply by repenting. Therefore, it seems that you are saying that all people, except the sons of perdition, will repent before final judgment. Is this correct? 

 

Also, even though these have repented, those in the terrestrial kingdom will not receive the presence of the Father, and those in the Telestial kingdom will not receive the presence of the Father or the Son. If this is so, then even those who have repented before the end will not necessarily be received into the celestial kingdom. Therefore this would seem to indicate that a person must not only repent but repent before certain stages or they will not inherit the celestial kingdom. Do you believe this?

 

No, no, no.  A person MUST pay for his own sins if he does not take upon him the Atonement of Christ.  And mere repentance isn't enough, as forgiveness requires having faith in Christ, and taking upon oneself the name of Christ, not to mention baptism by water and by the Spirit.  Even an atheist can repent.  The sons of perdition are just like anyone else who rejects Christ, and they must pay for their sins, but in their case they do not inherit a kingdom of glory, whereas even those who reject Christ and suffer for their own sins will inherit a kingdom of glory (the Telestial).

Edited November 20, 2013 by Stargazer

[Glenn101]

No, no, no.  A person MUST pay for his own sins if he does not take upon him the Atonement of Christ.  And mere repentance isn't enough, as forgiveness requires having faith in Christ, and taking upon oneself the name of Christ, not to mention baptism by water and by the Spirit.  Even an atheist can repent.  The sons of perdition are just like anyone else who rejects Christ, and they must pay for their sins, but in their case they do not inherit a kingdom of glory, whereas even those who reject Christ and suffer for their own sins will inherit a kingdom of glory (the Telestial).

 

That statement is in accord with the scriptures as I understand them. In addition, I offer another quote from Jesus himself.

 

Matthew 5:25-26

"25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid athe uttermost farthing."

 

That statement seems to be saying that there is a sentence affixed to each sin and if not taken care of by the atonement, the sinner will have to pay the full price himself.

 

There were many people in the days of Noah, and before, and after who never heard of Christ, never heard the message of repentance. The messengers preaching to the dead go to those in spirit prison. I have never read anywhere that they go to those in any of the various levels of hell, which is what I understand to be the place and time we pay for all of our own sins for which we have not repented.

 

Glenn

Edited November 20, 2013 by Glenn101

[teddyaware]

 

No they will not suffer forever, and the suffering will end.

This is made very clear in D&C 19:

 

And, the scales MUST balance, or God would cease to be God. And they will balance, but the suffering that they endure and complete is only sufficient to balance the books for them, but not take them farther unto justification, something that requires the blood of Christ. And where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

 

The only way the books will ever be balanced for anyone is for Christ to pardon them. God's punishment is endless punishment unless and until the sinner exercises faith in Christ, repents of his sins, and at last receives the forgiveness of God. The primary purpose of suffering for sin in the spirit prison is not to "balance the books" (only God can do that) but to stir the soul up unto remorse of conscience leading to repentance. Do you deny that those who inherit the lower kingdoms of glory will receive the forgiveness that only God can give? The Doctrine and Covenants makes it very clear the only people who will not ultimately be able to receive forgiveness are the sons of perdition only.

 

2 They are they who are the sons of perdition, of whom I say that it had been better for them never to have been born;

33 For they are vessels of wrath, doomed to suffer the wrath of God, with the devil and his angels in eternity;

34 Concerning whom I have said there is no forgiveness in this world nor in the world to come— (D&C 76)

 

By logical extension, then, all the others, who are not numbered among the sons of perdition, have the possibility of receiving the forgiveness of God through the shed blood and atoning sacrifice of Christ. Remember, "without the shedding of blood, there is no remission." There is no place in the scriptures, as far as I know, that teaches men can work their way into a state of justification. Yet you seem to believe men can through their own effort be saved in one of the Father's many heavenly mansions.

 

In teaching these things, I am merely echoing the teachings of Joseph Fielding Smith who asserted: 

 

"They (the inheritors of the lower kingdoms of glory) have no part in the first resurrection and are not redeemed from the devil and his angels until the last resurrection, because of their wicked lives and their evil deeds. Nevertheless, even these are heirs of salvation, but before they are redeemed (i.e. forgiven) and enter into their kingdom, they must repent of their sins, and receive the gospel, and bow the knee, and acknowledge that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of the world.    

Edited November 20, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

That statement is in accord with the scriptures as I understand them. In addition, I offer another quote from Jesus himself.

 

Matthew 5:25-26

"25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid athe uttermost farthing."

 

That statement seems to be saying that there is a sentence affixed to each sin and if not taken care of by the atonement, the sinner will have to pay the full price himself.

 

There were many people in the days of Noah, and before, and after who never heard of Christ, never heard the message of repentance. The messengers preaching to the dead go to those in spirit prison. I have never read anywhere that they go to those in any of the various levels of hell, which is what I understand to be the place and time we pay for all of our own sins for which we have not repented.

 

Glenn

 

Read the 138th section of the Doctrine and Covenants and you'll see the wicked of Noah's day, who while dwelling on earth heard the gospel preached but rejected it, were thrust into the spirit prison to suffer for their sins for many days. But eventually, at the time Christ Himself entered the spirit world after His death of the cross, missionary forces in paradise were organized to preach the gospel to those wicked souls of Noah's day who had heard the gospel message on earth but rejected it. So though these wicked sons and daughters of God rejected the gospel and rebelled against God while on earth, they were given a second opportunity in the spirit world to hear the gospel preached once again.

 

I could easily post the pertinent verses from D&C 138 right here for easy reference, but I think I'll just encourage you to read 138 on your own so that you might have the blessing of discovering this wonderful doctrine of salvation for yourself, so that you might rejoice, as do I, in the wonderful knowledge of the great love and mercy God extends to all of His children.  

 

(addendum)

By the way, the terms hell and spirit prison are interchangeable; they mean the same thing and refer to the same place. For the inheritors of the telestial kingdom, the spirit prison (hell) is a temporary place of abode from which their spirits will be permitted to eventually emerge, after the suffering for their own sins endured there causes them to develop enough remorse of conscience to sincerely repent. In this regard, Alma's experience of suffering for his sins in hell clearly demonstrates what the divinely ordained purposes and methods of the spirit prison is all about.

 

12 But I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins.

13 Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell; yea, I saw that I had rebelled against my God, and that I had not kept his holy commandments.

14 Yea, and I had murdered many of his children, or rather led them away unto destruction; yea, and in fine so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror.

15 Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds.

16 And now, for three days and for three nights was I racked, even with the pains of a damned soul.

17 And it came to pass that as I was thus racked with torment, while I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered also to have heard my father prophesy unto the people concerning the coming of one Jesus Christ, a Son of God, to atone for the sins of the world.

18 Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

19 And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more.

20 And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain!

21 Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

 

And so, the above begs the following question: Why would not the other souls who suffer in hell be permitted the same possibility of relief from sin as did Alma? It's likely that for the vast majority of souls who suffer for sin in the spirit prison, their sins are no worse than Alma's. After all, Alma and the sons of Mosiah are described in the Book of Mormon as once being "the very vilest of sinners." Bottom line? Alma, even though numbered  among the very vilest of sinners, was allowed to call upon Christ to deliver him from the torments of hell. So why wouldn't others suffering in hell be permitted the same opportunity of deliverance? And why are missionaries, empowered and organized in the spirit world, sent to bring the light of the Gospel of Christ to those suffering for their own sins in hell (see D&C 138) if repentance and forgiveness through the atonement of Christ are not possible. 

Edited November 20, 2013 by teddyaware

[janderich]

No, no, no.  A person MUST pay for his own sins if he does not take upon him the Atonement of Christ.  And mere repentance isn't enough, as forgiveness requires having faith in Christ, and taking upon oneself the name of Christ, not to mention baptism by water and by the Spirit.  Even an atheist can repent.  The sons of perdition are just like anyone else who rejects Christ, and they must pay for their sins, but in their case they do not inherit a kingdom of glory, whereas even those who reject Christ and suffer for their own sins will inherit a kingdom of glory (the Telestial).

Let me see if I can clarify my position. I probably shouldn't have used the term "pay" it causes confusion. A person who does not repent can and will suffer for their own sins. However, suffering never absolved anyone of sin. So I could suffer endlessly and it will never absolve me of my sin. Why? Because the only way to end suffering is to change (ie repent). Once a person commits to follow God's law his or her suffering ends. Yes, as a sign of this change a person will be baptized and receive other ordinances when they are made aware of them.  

[janderich]

That statement is in accord with the scriptures as I understand them. In addition, I offer another quote from Jesus himself.

 

Matthew 5:25-26

"25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid athe uttermost farthing."

 

That statement seems to be saying that there is a sentence affixed to each sin and if not taken care of by the atonement, the sinner will have to pay the full price himself.

 

There were many people in the days of Noah, and before, and after who never heard of Christ, never heard the message of repentance. The messengers preaching to the dead go to those in spirit prison. I have never read anywhere that they go to those in any of the various levels of hell, which is what I understand to be the place and time we pay for all of our own sins for which we have not repented.

 

Glenn

What is the nature of God's law? Are there 10 units of suffering for stealing and 100 units for adultery? If the person doesn't repent, at the end of this suffering has he changed? How then could he be fit for a kingdom? Why is it that his suffering ends?

 

I do not believe God's law is punitive. Rather, the purpose of suffering is to lead the sinner to repentance. Once he has repented, his suffering ends. As CV75 quoted, "And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; and they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;" (D&C 29:43-44). Also, once someone has repented there is not a left over amount of suffering to be born. Christ does not have to pay the balance.

[CV75]

What is the nature of God's law? Are there 10 units of suffering for stealing and 100 units for adultery? If the person doesn't repent, at the end of this suffering has he changed? How then could he be fit for a kingdom? Why is it that his suffering ends?

 

I do not believe God's law is punitive. Rather, the purpose of suffering is to lead the sinner to repentance. Once he has repented, his suffering ends. As CV75 quoted, "And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; and they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;" (D&C 29:43-44). Also, once someone has repented there is not a left over amount of suffering to be born. Christ does not have to pay the balance.

I probably should have been more specific on the Alma 34 reference about reaching a point where one can no longer repent. So he suffers and pays the price, but without repentance (verses 33-35):

 

“… do not procrastinate the day of your repentance until the end; for after this day of life, which is given us to prepare for eternity, behold, if we do not improve our time while in this life, then cometh the night of darkness wherein there can be no labor performed. Ye cannot say, when ye are brought to that awful crisis, that I will repent, that I will return to my God. Nay, ye cannot say this; for that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world. For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold, ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his; therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you; and this is the final state of the wicked.”

 

Mercifully, the “day of repentance” and “this life” extends into the post-mortal spirit world.

[Glenn101]

What is the nature of God's law? Are there 10 units of suffering for stealing and 100 units for adultery? If the person doesn't repent, at the end of this suffering has he changed? How then could he be fit for a kingdom? Why is it that his suffering ends?

 

I do not believe God's law is punitive. Rather, the purpose of suffering is to lead the sinner to repentance. Once he has repented, his suffering ends. As CV75 quoted, "And thus did I, the Lord God, appoint unto man the days of his probation—that by his natural death he might be raised in immortality unto eternal life, even as many as would believe; and they that believe not unto eternal damnation; for they cannot be redeemed from their spiritual fall, because they repent not;" (D&C 29:43-44). Also, once someone has repented there is not a left over amount of suffering to be born. Christ does not have to pay the balance.

 

 

Read the verses I quoted again. And your point is well taken that "once someone has repented there is not a left over amount of suffering to be born. Christ does not have to pay the balance." I agree with that completely. But the thread is talking about the unrepentant and what will happen to them.

 

Also see CV75's post above. I mostly agree with him , as far as his post agrees with the scriptures he quoted.

 

Glenn

[CV75]

Read the verses I quoted again. And your point is well taken that "once someone has repented there is not a left over amount of suffering to be born. Christ does not have to pay the balance." I agree with that completely. But the thread is talking about the unrepentant and what will happen to them.

 

Also see CV75's post above. I mostly agree with him , as far as his post agrees with the scriptures he quoted.

 

Glenn

Hi Glenn, is the only issue with the actual manner in which the unrepentant experience the suffering of the Lord's smiting words, wrath and anger in "body and spirit" and the attendant "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" once they are resurrected?

[Glenn101]

Hi Glenn, is the only issue with the actual manner in which the unrepentant experience the suffering of the Lord's smiting words, wrath and anger in "body and spirit" and the attendant "weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth" once they are resurrected?

 

The only issue I have is more of an uncertainty by what you mean with "Mercifully, the “day of repentance” and “this life” extends into the post-mortal spirit world." I don't disagree with that statement, but the scriptures do seem to place bounds upon it.

 

Alma's information on procrastinating the day of repentance to me is pertinent. A person who is baptized, yet sins without repentance (and all that true repentance implies) would, according to my understanding, fit at least one of Alma's scenarios. A person who hears the gospel, but rejected it would also seem to fit with what Alma said. However, all of those cases will be judged by God, and not me.

 

I have a brother, now deceased, an alcoholic all of his life who dies without baptism. He would not even listen to the gospel story. I don't know if he was capable of understanding the gospel message here in this life. I do not want to make that judgement. ( I do know that he is fully "dried out" now.) The work has been done for him. I don't know even now if he will accept the gospel.  I don't know what portion of the Law of Justice and the Law of Mercy will have meted out to him. That is not my call. For him or anybody else. But we, as members of the church, really need to pay attention to Alma's warning, I think that it was and is directed more to members of the church and to those who hear the gospel, have the full capability of understanding it and receiving a confirmation from the Holy Ghost but do not want to relinquish some of the pleasures that they enjoy which are sins according to the restored gospel.

I don't know how those with addictions that they cannot break will be or are viewed by God.

 

The words of Alma and the scriptures that have been cited from the Doctrine and Covenants are concerning the unrepentant. Some of the posters seem to be implying that an unrepentant person may, in the midst of the suffering that he or she is undergoing for those unrepented of sins, decide to repent, claim the atonement of Christ, and have their suffering shortened. That does not seem to be borne out by the words of Jesus as recorded by Matthew about "paying the uttermost farthing." I have not read or heard of that idea from any of out prophets or scriptures. I remember, as a kid, being punished, sometimes rather severely, for some of my less than stellar deeds. During that time of punishment, I was truly sorry ..... that I had been caught. I think that is sort of what the scriptures are saying. That in the agony that an unrepentant person may be enduring, they will not be repentant, but really, really, be sorry that they procrastinated the day of their repentance, whatever that day was, to the end.

 

I do believe that God is just and will give everyone the a full opportunity to repent and accept the gospel, whether in this life, or the next. And then, after all else has failed, will that suffering begin, whatever form it may take.

 

I know I answered your straightforward question with a long winded reply, but I wanted to clarify my understanding of the scriptures a bit. If anyone has any corrections, I am willing to read on.

 

Glenn

[CV75]

The only issue I have is more of an uncertainty by what you mean with "Mercifully, the “day of repentance” and “this life” extends into the post-mortal spirit world." I don't disagree with that statement, but the scriptures do seem to place bounds upon it.

 

***

 

Some of the posters seem to be implying that an unrepentant person may, in the midst of the suffering that he or she is undergoing for those unrepented of sins, decide to repent, claim the atonement of Christ, and have their suffering shortened.

 

***

 

I do believe that God is just and will give everyone the a full opportunity to repent and accept the gospel, whether in this life, or the next. And then, after all else has failed, will that suffering begin, whatever form it may take.

I agree that our opportunity to repent is now and in the spirit world, but ends with our resurrection, and that we will have no more opporunity to repent after that. So I do think there are bounds to it.

 

I think "suffering for sin" in this life, the post-mortal spirit world, and in the resurrection has a different meaning in each phase. In the first two phases, suffering can lead to repentance; and in the second two phases, suffering is simply the consequence of not repenting. This allows the post-mortal spirit world to be a place where we can continue to progress to the extent we can still repent, which is in turn dependent on the extent to which we haven't sold our agency to the devil (Alma 34:34). I think there is room in the Atonement for people to reclaim their lost agency. Additionally, I think the suffering for sin is experienced in different ways in each of the phases.

 

I take suffering for one's own unrepented sins (as in paying the penalty for one's own sins) to be the result of refusing Christ's gift, after every opportunity has been extended to be washed thoroughly clean. I think it falls under the false notion of being beaten with a few stripes and then released (2 Nehpi 28:8 ). I think, as with everything else, this pride can be exercised in varying degrees. But since this suffering coincides with the resurrection and judgment, it comes after the opporunity to repent is over, and I see no repentance resulting from it.

Edited November 20, 2013 by CV75

[Calm]

What is the nature of God's law? Are there 10 units of suffering for stealing and 100 units for adultery? ]

I would assume that the suffering done by the unrepentant sinner is the same as the suffering she causes by her actions. I see this as possible through the vicarious experience of the pain caused others..whether it is just the sensations and feelings or a virtual reliving of the experience with full knowledge of the implications or something else, I don't know.

This is why, IMO, suffering for sins can change some people at a fundamental level...it is not just an avoidance of pain, but a realisation of the pain they've caused others and why they caused it and how it should have been instead, including for those they care about which awakens a desire to change in order that they may no longer be the source of pain for others.

Edited November 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[teddyaware]

Let's take a look at chapter 7 of the Book of Moses to examine a vivid example of what the scriptures have to say to help illuminate this important subject matter. So as to avoid unnecessary confusion, after each verse I will offer some straightforward commentary...

36 Wherefore, I can stretch forth mine hands and hold all the creations which I have made; and mine eye can pierce them also, and among all the workmanship of mine hands there has not been so great wickedness as among thy brethren.

When read in context, it's understood that the extremely wicked people, referred to in verse 36, are those who, as a consequence of their rebellion, will eventually be destroyed in the great flood. These are the same people Peter speaks of as being disobedient to God, "when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." (1 Peter 3:20)

37 But behold, their sins shall be upon the heads of their fathers; Satan shall be their father, and misery shall be their doom; and the whole heavens shall weep over them, even all the workmanship of mine hands; wherefore should not the heavens weep, seeing these shall suffer?

In verse 37 we glimpse into heaven and observe that God, as well as all the other inhabitants of heaven, are brokenhearted and weeping bitterly because the wicked antediluvians are going to die in the floods and their spirits are going to have to suffer in hell as a consequence of their unholy rebellion. In a manner of speaking, God is already suffering for their wickedness.

38 But behold, these which thine eyes are upon shall perish in the floods; and behold, I will shut them up; a prison have I prepared for them.

Verse 38 tells us God is going to send the spirits of these wicked to a place from which they cannot escape. We call that place the spirit prison or hell.

39 And that (i.e. Christ) which I have chosen hath pled before my face. Wherefore, he suffereth for their sins; inasmuch as they will repent in the day that my Chosen shall return unto me, and until that day they shall be in torment;

Verse 39 tells us that Christ did plead with the Father for mercy on the souls of these antediluvians, even though they were so desperately evil. We are also informed, specifically, that in His atoning sacrifice Christ suffered for the sins of these people. We also learn that even though these wicked people will suffer for their own sins in the spirit prison, and that said suffering will last for a protracted period of time, it's still not good enough to balance the scales of justice. For after many centuries of suffering, Christ will come to earth to atone for their sins; and when the time of Christ's resurrection is at hand, these people will finally be given the opportunity to repent of their sins and receive that precious forgiveness.

Even the exceedingly wicked, like these, have the opportunity to make Christ's suffering for sin efficacious in their own lives, but only on condition of repentance. So it's plain to see even these folks have to hear the gospel message and, hopefully, obey it. Suffering for one's own sins isn't enough. All who will be saved, in any degree of glory, must come unto Christ and acknowledge Him as Saviour. It's right there in black and white. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess, unto the glory of the Father, that Jesus is the Christ.

Edited November 21, 2013 by teddyaware