New Order Mormons?

[DBMormon]

Back to the Op.  That's hard to explain

 

The New Order Mormon board contains a lot of critical talk of the Church.  So it may be fair to think most NOM are critical and fed up with the Church.

While this is one view to take, I would define it differently

 

NOM = One who sees Mormonism in a new way that falls outside the majority.  A New Order Mormon has gone through a fundamental shift in their faith transition and no longer views Mormonism as they used to. 

 

I would define myself per the defintion I just gave as NOM

[mfbukowski]

I think there is a bit of confusion about what I wrote.  I consider New Order Mormons to be members who are active but don't believe any or most of the restoration claims of the church.  I personally know dozens like this and they remain active mostly for family but some for political or employment reasons. 

 

My opinion is that there is a equal group of inactive members who rarely or never attend church but have a personal belief in the claims of the church. 

Oh I see.  Another problem in the Utah Planetary System.

 

Where I live, you are lucky to keep a job if they know you are Mormon, and people don't like to get out of bed to sit in boring meetings for 3 hours to listen to talks about things they don't believe in.

 

But I know for a fact that there are full tithe payers in the group who do not like to get out of bed.  I don't give MY money away to causes I don't believe in.

 

Nobody I know considers themselves "New Order"- they have probably not even heard the term.  They either show up and participate or stay in bed.  The lessons are actually out of the manual and Brigham Young is only mentioned when he is quoted in a lesson.

 

Polygamy is something "some Mormons used to do, but haven't done for a hundred years" and "Blacks didn't used to have the Priesthood, but thank God, we got over that years ago too", and talk about the days when all churches were segregated anyway.  "After all didn't everyone used to be that way?"

 

If you decide to go to a new church, they tell you "Oh I am going to Calvary Chapel now" and you wish them well, ask about their kids, and see them at the grocery store every once in a while.  They don't picket or go on line to argue, they just change their mind about what church to attend.

 

Definitely a local problem.

Edited October 17, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

A New Order Mormon has gone through a fundamental shift in their faith transition and no longer views Mormonism as they used to. 

Oh.

 

I just see that as "line upon line" progression from milk to meat.  Silly old me!

[jkwilliams]

Oh.

 

I just see that as "line upon line" progression from milk to meat.  Silly old me!

More like a progression from belief to unbelief.

Back in the old days they used to call people like that "liberal Mormons" or Swearing Elders. Now they call them NOMs. Same difference.

And yes, you are quite silly.

[mfbukowski]

More like a progression from belief to unbelief.

 

We should let DB decide that one.  There is no "progression" from belief to disbelief.  That is called "becoming disillusioned".  As McMurrin used to say,

 

"I was never disillusioned because I was never illusioned in the first place"

 

But yes, I am definitely silly

 

And old. 

Edited October 17, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Scott Lloyd]

In the context of MFB's post I am with you on this one.

Then I hope you understand it was made tongue-in-cheek.

[jkwilliams]

We should let DB decide that one.  There is no "progression" from belief to disbelief.  That is called "becoming disillusioned".  As McMurrin used to say,

 

"I was never disillusioned because I was never illusioned in the first place"

 

But yes, I am definitely silly

 

And old. 

For me it was a progression, as I feel like I'm a better person for having traversed that path. And strictly speaking, ridding yourself of illusions can be quite progressive.

[jkwilliams]

Oh I see.  Another problem in the Utah Planetary System.

 

Where I live, you are lucky to keep a job if they know you are Mormon, and people don't like to get out of bed to sit in boring meetings for 3 hours to listen to talks about things they don't believe in.

Wait, I thought you live not far from where I grew up. I never felt particularly discriminated against as a Mormon, other than some schoolyard taunts of "Shouldn't they take the second 'm' out of Mormon?"

 

But I know for a fact that there are full tithe payers in the group who do not like to get out of bed.  I don't give MY money away to causes I don't believe in.

Exactly the reason I don't pay tithing. My wife pays tithing on her income.

 

Nobody I know considers themselves "New Order"- they have probably not even heard the term.  They either show up and participate or stay in bed.  The lessons are actually out of the manual and Brigham Young is only mentioned when he is quoted in a lesson.

It's just a label like any other, and I know some people who use it to describe themselves.

 

Polygamy is something "some Mormons used to do, but haven't done for a hundred years" and "Blacks didn't used to have the Priesthood, but thank God, we got over that years ago too", and talk about the days when all churches were segregated anyway.  "After all didn't everyone used to be that way?"

Not sure what you're getting at.

 

If you decide to go to a new church, they tell you "Oh I am going to Calvary Chapel now" and you wish them well, ask about their kids, and see them at the grocery store every once in a while.  They don't picket or go on line to argue, they just change their mind about what church to attend.

Sounds like a great church you belong to: no doctrine, no hierarchy, just people following the spirit and wishing you well when you leave. I'm not sure I'm familiar with that one.

[rodheadlee]

What exactly are "new order" Mormons?

Hypocrites, people who go to Church to be seen. They no longer believe anything about the Church but they are afraid to step out of the Mormon cocoon and live a life outside of Mormonism, usually citing jobs and family as the reason not to have the courage to live their convictions. It's easier to sit in Church every Sunday thinking you are smarter than everyone else than to quit your job, uproot your family and move out of state,.

[Tacenda]

Hypocrites, people who go to Church to be seen. They no longer believe anything about the Church but they are afraid to step out of the Mormon cocoon and live a life outside of Mormonism, usually citing jobs and family as the reason not to have the courage to live their convictions. It's easier to sit in Church every Sunday thinking you are smarter than everyone else than to quit your job, uproot your family and move out of state,.

Please say you are being sarcastic, because what you put forth seemed a far more selfish thing to do to your family.

[jkwilliams]

Please say you are being sarcastic, because what you put forth seemed a far more selfish thing to do to your family.

Agreed. Some people are in difficult situations, and I don't judge people for making different choices than I would make. You do what you have to do.

[Senator]

Hypocrites, people who go to Church to be seen. They no longer believe anything about the Church but they are afraid to step out of the Mormon cocoon and live a life outside of Mormonism, usually citing jobs and family as the reason not to have the courage to live their convictions. It's easier to sit in Church every Sunday thinking you are smarter than everyone else than to quit your job, uproot your family and move out of state,.

[Calm]

Please say you are being sarcastic, because what you put forth seemed a far more selfish thing to do to your family.

That would depend on what effect you allowed your decision to not rock the boat at church and work to have on your home life.

[Tacenda]

That would depend on what effect you allowed your decision to not rock the boat at church and work to have on your home life.

Last post until 8 pm or so, in case we need to continue to discuss I'll edit here.

In my 6 or so years of crisis I've read NOM quite a bit. Not near as much as this board. There are people on there that have gone years without telling their spouse and family of their non belief, faked it to make it. There have been bishops, high councilman, etc. that post on there. That are not willing to hurt someone's testimony. The NOM crowd, for the most part, are a different breed than ex mormon and staylds groups, they are right in between. Sometimes leaning more towards the ex mormons. DB Mormon will attest to that. He gets pretty beat up there when he presents his podcasts on a regular basis.

Many introductions I read, are of the people that have been in leadership positions or several in bishoprics. So rarely any Jack Mormons or fence sitters.

Some I'll admit, are no angels either. It's very one sided there, not much diversity like here. In fact if we compare these boards to heaven I'd much rather be in a place like this with all kinds of faith beliefs.

Though there are some that attend other faiths too, most are non believers of Mormonism, and if a believer shows up to preach, they aren't very welcome there, because it's an outlet for NOMS, they get enough TBM influences at home I guess. Wouldn't that be a rough mission field if we compared it to that?!? I guess it could be a reality if the church allowed them to be on that site.

I have compassion for most of them, they are hurting, they didn't seek this way of life, many wish they could go back to their old way of life, where it was safe, they knew what would be awaiting them in the hereafter, they had the plan of salvation all mapped out, all they needed to do was follow it.

I don't think some here will ever understand, it's nearly impossible to, unless one loses their belief too. So it's probably good people react the way they do, they have titanium testimonies!

[jkwilliams]

I have compassion for most of them, they are hurting, they didn't seek this way of life, many wish they could go back to their old way of life, where it was safe, they knew what would be awaiting them in the hereafter, they had the plan of salvation all mapped out, all they needed to do was follow it.

I don't think some here will ever understand, it's nearly impossible to, unless one loses their belief too. So it's probably good people react the way they do, they have titanium testimonies!

What a great post. Thank you!

One thing that I learned long ago is that, almost without exception, the people I've met on these boards (including this one and the NOM board) are doing the best they can with their situation and their level of knowledge and belief. It's easy to label people (hence NOM) and then make decisions about people based on that label, but everyone is different, and IMO it's best to try to understand where people are coming from before making snap judgments about them. I can't think of anyone I know who fits the "hypocrite, goes to be seen" description. For better or worse, these folks attend church because that is what they want to do or feel they must do, for any number of reasons. As you say, some are in pain, some do feel like terrible hypocrites, and some are afraid of losing their families (I attended church for over a year because of that fear).

We used to talk about "teachable" moments, which came when you established trust and common ground with those you were trying to teach. Maybe that's what is needed both for "NOMs" as well as those who condemn.

[omni]

Hypocrites, people who go to Church to be seen. They no longer believe anything about the Church but they are afraid to step out of the Mormon cocoon and live a life outside of Mormonism, usually citing jobs and family as the reason not to have the courage to live their convictions. It's easier to sit in Church every Sunday thinking you are smarter than everyone else than to quit your job, uproot your family and move out of state,.

Interesting...if NOMs are hypocrites, what would you call someone who repeatedly professes their faith in the church on an internet message board but rarely attends that church?

[Calm]

Interesting...if NOMs are hypocrites, what would you call someone who repeatedly professes their faith in the church on an internet message board but rarely attends that church?

I don't know, what would you call me?

[Pahoran]

"New Order Mormons" have actually been around for a long time.  They are well described in Revelation 3:14-18.

 

Regards,
Pahoran

[Pahoran]

For me it was a progression, as I feel like I'm a better person for having traversed that path. And strictly speaking, ridding yourself of illusions can be quite progressive.

But self-styled "NOM's" are far too humble to think themselves superior to anyone else.

Right?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

[canard78]

"New Order Mormons" have actually been around for a long time.  They are well described in Revelation 3:14-18.

 

Regards,

Pahoran

 

I don't go as far as calling myself a 'NOM' but certainly sympathise with the "middle way" and attending in spite of a changed perspective.

 

This scripture goes nowhere near describing people in that circumstance:

 

 

14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.

16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth

 

"Lukewarm" they certainly are not.

[jkwilliams]

But self-styled "NOM's" are far too humble to think themselves superior to anyone else.

Right?

 

Regards,

Pahoran

 

A better me is not necessarily better than anyone else. I'm certainly not claiming to be better than Mormons. Heavens, no.

[Senator]

I don't go as far as calling myself a 'NOM' but certainly sympathise with the "middle way" and attending in spite of a changed perspective.

 

This scripture goes nowhere near describing people in that circumstance:

 

 

 

"Lukewarm" they certainly are not.

 

The Lord loveth an extremist.....didn't you know?

Edited October 18, 2013 by Senator

[rodheadlee]

Please say you are being sarcastic, because what you put forth seemed a far more selfish thing to do to your family.

Not really. It all depends ya know. If you are upfront to everyone (including your children) about how you feel, no problem. If you are pretending to be a Mormon while teaching classes or sitting in a judgment position, If you are pretending to be a Mormon to keep your job, if you are lying to your children, spouse or Bishop,  I  meant every word of it. 

 

Christ said in Matthew 10:

34 Think not that I am come to send ^apeace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

  35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

  36 And a man’s ^afoes shall be they of his own ^bhousehold.

  37 He that ^aloveth father or mother ^bmore than me is not worthy of me: and he that ^cloveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

  38 And he that taketh not his ^across, and followeth after me, is not ^bworthy of me.

 

 

 

[Pahoran]

I don't go as far as calling myself a 'NOM' but certainly sympathise with the "middle way" and attending in spite of a changed perspective.

 

This scripture goes nowhere near describing people in that circumstance:

 

 

 

"Lukewarm" they certainly are not.

Yes they most certainly are.

 

But if you prefer a different metaphor: they are trying to have one foot on either side of the stream, so that they can eat from the tree without getting too far from the Great and Spacious Building.

 

I hope they're good at doing the splits.

Regards,

Pahoran

[rodheadlee]

 You do what you have to do.

That is a statement made by so many people for so many things that are unethical or down right evil it's unbelievable. It's a cop out. Do you think that will hold up on Judgment Day?  Of course If you don't believe in Judgment Day it's no problem.