Damien the Leper Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Let's all join hands and sing the John Lennon song "Imagine." He he he...funny!
Damien the Leper Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 I don't think my Jewish relatives would appreciate that thought. Nor would my non-LDS Christian friends. Just saying.FWIW, my sister is much happier in her Jewish faith than she was in the LDS church. I'd say that, for her at least, Judaism is progress over LDS beliefs. Well it is true that Jews are God's chosen people. There's not a single Christian church out there than can claim that blessing or rise to that stature.
Damien the Leper Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 I was only marginally religious at the time that came out, and later became an atheist, but I was never very happy with that song. It was just so dang SMUG Holy Hannah! I think the median age here on the board is 62. You people are old!
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Holy Hannah! I think the median age here on the board is 62. You people are old! We're eternal in both directions. 2
thesometimesaint Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Well it is true that Jews are God's chosen people. There's not a single Christian church out there than can claim that blessing or rise to that stature. Many are called but few are choosen.
phaedrus ut Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 (edited) I have a personal theory(unprovable as far as I know) that there are about as many active non-believeing(new order mormons) as there are inactive Mormons but who have a testimony of some sort. Essentially they balance each other out. I tried the New Order Mormon thing for myself but I found it uncomfortable to bite my tongue for 3 hours a week. Phaedrus Edit: I'm now more of a Joy Division Mormon Edited October 16, 2013 by phaedrus ut
jkwilliams Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 I have a personal theory(unprovable as far as I know) that there are about as many active non-believeing(new order mormons) as there are inactive Mormons but who have a testimony of some sort. Essentially they balance each other out. I think that's probably right. I've met a fairly equal number of both. I tried the New Order Mormon thing for myself but I found it uncomfortable to bite my tongue for 3 hours a week. I get through sacrament meeting by trying to focus on the good and ignore the bad. When that fails, I look around and see what other people are doing. Usually I'm paying more attention than most. Funny, that. I'm now more of a Joy Division Mormon I like that.
Calm Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 I was only marginally religious at the time that came out, and later became an atheist, but I was never very happy with that song. It was just so dang SMUGAmen...I was 13 at the time and thought the lyrics exactly that...besides having boring, rather monotonous music.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Holy Hannah! I think the median age here on the board is 62. You people are old!It will happen to you too, ere you are aware. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Amen...I was 13 at the time and thought the lyrics exactly that...besides having boring, rather monotonous music.It was not John's finest product.
jkwilliams Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Amen...I was 13 at the time and thought the lyrics exactly that...besides having boring, rather monotonous music. Not that it matters, but I like the song. It's not profound, musically complex, or anything else I generally value in music, and it's certainly not Lennon's best stuff. But it's nice enough. I see it as more naïve than smug, but that's just me.
Scott Lloyd Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Not that it matters, but I like the song. It's not profound, musically complex, or anything else I generally value in music, and it's certainly not Lennon's best stuff. But it's nice enough.I see it as more naïve than smug, but that's just me.It reflects the "don't trust anybody over 30" mentality of the time. It was nothing if not smug. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Amen...I was 13 at the time and thought the lyrics exactly that...besides having boring, rather monotonous music.You're just a kid- I got at least 9 years on you. Be good now, and listen to your elders. 1
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Holy Hannah! I think the median age here on the board is 62. You people are old!Yep, those median age whippersnappers! Little punky 62 year olds! 2
jkwilliams Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 It reflects the "don't trust anybody over 30" mentality of the time. It was nothing if not smug. I was 6 years old at the time, so I missed that.
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 I have a personal theory(unprovable as far as I know) that there are about as many active non-believeing(new order mormons) as there are inactive Mormons but who have a testimony of some sort. Essentially they balance each other out. Yet another evidence that the category does not exist. According to this, new order Mormons have a testimony and go to church. What do old order Mormons do that's different? Can you get into their heads to see what they are "really thinking" as if such a thing exists?
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 It reflects the "don't trust anybody over 30" mentality of the time. It was nothing if not smug.Hey, when you know everything and can tell everyone else how to live their lives, you are not "smug" just right perfectly on every issue. Maybe "hubris" fits in here somewhere. 1
jkwilliams Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Yet another evidence that the category does not exist. According to this, new order Mormons have a testimony and go to church. Where are you getting that? He's describing "active non-believing (new order Mormons)." Presumably non-believing people don't have testimonies. What do old order Mormons do that's different? Uh, they believe? Can you get into their heads to see what they are "really thinking" as if such a thing exists? No, but unlike NOMs, they actually profess to believe.
mfbukowski Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Where are you getting that? He's describing "active non-believing (new order Mormons)." Presumably non-believing people don't have testimonies.Uh, they believe?No, but unlike NOMs, they actually profess to believe.Everybody doesn't like something but nobody doesn't like Sara Lee. Specifically not believing in what belief makes one a "non-believer"?? The point is that the category is so vague as to be useless. Do all old order Mormons believe that we should go back to polygamy and take away the priesthood from Blacks? Do all old order Mormons believe in a literal flood and that the earth was created in 6 days? That every article in Ensign is scripture? That everyone should wait one year after a civil marriage to be sealed? Hopefully you get the idea.
jkwilliams Posted October 16, 2013 Posted October 16, 2013 Everybody doesn't like something but nobody doesn't like Sara Lee. Specifically not believing in what belief makes one a "non-believer"?? The point is that the category is so vague as to be useless. I think the difference is that NOMs, at least the ones I know, have sort of banded together through internet connections and such. Your run-of-the-mill nonbeliever sits in church quietly, probably never realizing that anyone like him or her exists, let alone in the same ward. Do all old order Mormons believe that we should go back to polygamy and take away the priesthood from Blacks? Do all old order Mormons believe in a literal flood and that the earth was created in 6 days? That every article in Ensign is scripture? That everyone should wait one year after a civil marriage to be sealed? Hopefully you get the idea. Sure, I get the idea. It's sort of like the label "TBM." Do you know anyone who accepts without question every single teaching of the church? I don't. But the label suggests people who believe everything. I'd say that such a category of members is pretty small, and they are the ones who tend to start their own polygamous groups. But people use the label for convenience to mean an active member of the church who more or less accepts the church as it presents itself. To me, NOM is a shorthand for people who attend but don't really believe in the church. Like all categories, it is useful to a point, and that's it. I used to get upset when people called me an apostate, as it connotes someone who hates the church and wishes it ill. That's definitely not me. But I finally decided to embrace the label because I think applying the label to me is, well, hilarious. I once told my wife I was going to get the license plate APOST8, but she said she'd kill me. So, if "apostate" runs the gamut from Ed Decker to me to, say, John Dehlin or Joanna Brooks, it's useless as a label. (And I have heard the label applied to all three of them, as well as to me.) Still, it makes it clear to everyone at the ward barbecue that I'm the odd man out.
Stargazer Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 All due deference to the great music talent John Lennon was but that song is pure tripe. Amen. I skip to whatever is playing next, change the station, or turn the radio off, whenever I hear it. Imagine there's no ... Imagine. 2
phaedrus ut Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 Yet another evidence that the category does not exist. According to this, new order Mormons have a testimony and go to church. What do old order Mormons do that's different? Can you get into their heads to see what they are "really thinking" as if such a thing exists? I think there is a bit of confusion about what I wrote. I consider New Order Mormons to be members who are active but don't believe any or most of the restoration claims of the church. I personally know dozens like this and they remain active mostly for family but some for political or employment reasons. My opinion is that there is a equal group of inactive members who rarely or never attend church but have a personal belief in the claims of the church.
jkwilliams Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 I think there is a bit of confusion about what I wrote. I consider New Order Mormons to be members who are active but don't believe any or most of the restoration claims of the church. I personally know dozens like this and they remain active mostly for family but some for political or employment reasons. My opinion is that there is a equal group of inactive members who rarely or never attend church but have a personal belief in the claims of the church. I got that, and I still agree with you.
Mola Ram Suda Ram Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 (edited) Let's all join hands and sing the John Lennon song "Imagine."In the context of MFB's post I am with you on this one. Edited October 17, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram
Stargazer Posted October 17, 2013 Posted October 17, 2013 I think there is a bit of confusion about what I wrote. I consider New Order Mormons to be members who are active but don't believe any or most of the restoration claims of the church. I personally know dozens like this and they remain active mostly for family but some for political or employment reasons. My opinion is that there is a equal group of inactive members who rarely or never attend church but have a personal belief in the claims of the church. Good heavens, I do believe I agree with you on this. Given the number of times I have seen and heard of inactives and Do-Not-Contact-Mes getting riled up when asked if they wanted their names removed from the records of the Church.
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