Top 10 Mistakes

[WmLaw]

This is an official call for a CFR (if such things are still to be answered) on your list of "mistakes" most certainly that the Church conducted or had conducted number 5, on you list. MMM was murder, horror without end and those men forever damed. Is this is what it has come to, listing mistakes by opinion of our faith?

I'm not sure that I understand your CFR.   You want me to explain why I think the MMM was a mistake?  Let me cite Pres. Uchtdorf, "There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine. "  To be clear, I didn't place blame for the MMM on the LDS Church Leadership.  But it is an ugly and despicable event in our history - that part is undeniable.

 

ETA: Ironically, this is the only item on my list that I can reference an apostle or prophet making anything close to an admission that it is a "mistake".

Edited October 8, 2013 by WmLaw

[WmLaw]

Henry B. Eyring:

 

"We express profound regret for the massacre carried out in this valley 150 years ago today, and for the undue and untold suffering experienced by the victims then and by their relatives to the present time," Elder Eyring said.

"A separate expression of regret is owed the Paiute people who have unjustly borne for too long the principal blame for what occurred during the massacre," he said. "Although the extent of their involve- ment is disputed, it is believed they would not have participated without the direction and stimulus provided by local church leaders and members."

[JLHPROF]

Could you provide some references for this please. They seem to be pretty specific so I'm wondering if you can point me towards where you read this.

 

I'd be interested in you considering the marriage to Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young. She was married to Henry Jacobs and was expecting a child when she was married to Joseph and then went on to have a second child with Henry.

 

I provided the reference in post #43 - it was Mormon Polygamy by Van Wagoner pgs 42 & 46 (but the whole chapter).

 

As far as Zina goes that is one of the more problematic in that she was sealed to Joseph for eternity and Henry (then Brigham) for time.  This would require Henry/Brigham to give up claim on Zina's children and raise them to Joseph, whether Joseph and Zina ever consumated their marriage or not.

[cdowis]

The destruction of the press was actually illegal. 

 

I would be interested to CFR that this was actually a criminal act.  If you are referencing Oak's book, please give the quote.

Edited October 8, 2013 by cdowis

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I'm not sure that I understand your CFR.   You want me to explain why I think the MMM was a mistake?  .

Why it is our mistake or a mistake of the Church, you are the one who listed serious matters such as this...so yes CFR.

Be fair, anyone who knows who Wm Law is (unless that is your name...remember anonymity only works so mush) knows the CFR, request, because you know Wm Law betrayed Joseph.

[WmLaw]

Why it is our mistake or a mistake of the Church, you are the one who listed serious matters such as this...so yes CFR.

Be fair, anyone who knows who Wm Law is (unless that is your name...remember anonymity only works so mush) knows the CFR, request, because you know Wm Law betrayed Joseph.

What more are you looking for in your CFR? I gave you a quote from an apostle apologizing for the incident on behalf of the Church.

[Rivers]

I've pointed out before the absurdity of having a Church representative acknowledge "mistakes" without actually explaining what those mistakes were.

He needed to say this:

Without that, he has simply stated the obvious and without any additional context, members are left to try and figure it out for themselves (see: the OP).

So I, speaking for all members who might be wondering what those mistakes were, say to President Uchtdorf: "Thank you for nothing."

Pres. Uchdorf had a time constraint. Listing all the examples would have taken too long.

[Scott Lloyd]

Handcart migration

Why? Because of the Willie and Martin company disasters?

 

Do you understand that, with the exception of those two anomalies, the handcart venture succeeded as planned? Out of the 10 companies that traveled during the handcart period from 1856 to 1860, eight were successful.

 

Handcart travel didn't last very long, but it was ended not because it failed. It was interrupted by the onset of the Utah War in 1857. After 1860, it was superseded by the successful down-and-back companies and, very soon thereafter (1869), the advent of the transcontinental railroad, which obviated the need for overland travel as it had been known up to that time.

Edited October 10, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

Pres. Uchdorf had a time constraint. Listing all the examples would have taken too long.

Given the tenor of this thread, I'm not sure it was a good idea to bring it up at all. In the minds of some, it seems to have given license to gush forth with a flood of carping and faultfinding.

 

I'm not persuaded that was the intent.

 

And just glancing over some of the posts, I have to say that a good many -- if not most -- of the items on the various lists range from being petty at best to being very much debatable as to whether they were really mistakes (see my post above about handcart travel).

Edited October 10, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[cinepro]

But just to add my $.01, had President Uchtdorf honestly elucidated what the mistakes were, I would have hoped to hear this:

 

 

 

And, to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes. There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.

 

For example, in the early days of Church while polygamy was being instituted, Joseph Smith made mistakes in the ways some women were encouraged to be sealed to him.  Additionally, some women with LDS husbands were encouraged to be sealed to Joseph Smith; since we now know that it doesn't matter what position in the Church your spouse holds when it comes to eternal blessings, the assumptions behind these sealings appear to also be mistaken.  

 

There are also the decades in which priesthood blessings were denied to Church members of presumed African descent.  In reviewing the origin of this policy, it appears to be based on mistaken readings of some of our scriptures, with subsequent leaders mistakenly perpetuating the practice until the Lord revealed to President Kimball the correct course of action.  We can only ask for forgiveness from those who were hurt and excluded by this practice.

 

Also, there was physical death outside the Garden of Eden before the Fall, and Adam's body was created using millions of years of evolution.

Edited October 10, 2013 by cinepro

[CA Steve]

Why? Because of the Willie and Martin company disasters?

 

Do you understand that, with the exception of those two anomalies, the handcart venture succeeded as planned? Out of the 10 companies that traveled during the handcart period from 1856 to 1860, eight were successful.

 

Handcart travel didn't last very long, but it was ended not because it failed. It was interrupted by the onset of the Utah War in 1857. After 1860, it was superseded by the successful down-and-back companies and, very soon thereafter (1869), the advent of the transcontinental railroad, which obviated the need for overland travel as it had been known up to that time.

I see no reason to exclude those two disasters when evaluating the success of using handcarts to cross the plains and in fact they are a great example of why the handcarts were not a good idea. Given the same conditions, had those companies been equipped with wagons and teams, the survival rate would have been much higher.

 

What do you mean by successful as it applies to the handcart migrations? How did they fare in relation to those pioneers who crossed the plains by more conventional means? What was the condition, after crossing, of the people who crossed by conventional means as opposed to those using hand carts?  What was the financial condition of those crossing by handcart? Would they have been better served waiting in the east until they could earn the means to cross in wagons? Why was there a need to rush across the plains when many could have waited a year or a season and equipped themselves much better? I honestly do not know the answer to these questions but based on what I have read about the handcarts they were not capable of carrying enough food and clothing to adequately provide for the people pushing them. I think it is tough to argue that those that used them would not have had an easier time crossing the plains had they been in wagons.  So I am wondering what you mean by successful.

[cinepro]

Why? Because of the Willie and Martin company disasters?

 

Do you understand that, with the exception of those two anomalies, the handcart venture succeeded as planned? Out of the 10 companies that traveled during the handcart period from 1856 to 1860, eight were successful.

I agree that if we don't count the disasters, the handcart plan was very successful.

[Nevo]

.

Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Robert F. Smith]

 

1. Polygamy 

2. Canonization of the BOA

3. Idolization of JS

4. Idolization of BY, and subsequent Presidents of the Church

5. The MMM

6. Withholding the Priesthood from Blacks

7. Subjugation of female roles (i.e. thru unfortunate language in temple ordinances, etc.)

8. 

9.

10.

 

other thoughts?

Pres. Uchtdorf's frank and brilliant sermon deserves more that this absurd melange.  Indeed, whenever I have voiced opinions  on this board similar to those of Pres. Uchtdorf, I have received a good many disbelieving sneers.

A serious response is called for, and your response leaves something to be desired.

First, why did you not specify (where appropriate) the specific parties guilty of bad decision-making?

For example, who actually withheld the priesthood from African Americans?  When?  Why?  I agree that it was a mistake, but where are the relevant details from you?

Who has idolized Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and other presidents of the LDS Church?  I have been around awhile, and just haven't seen that.phenomenon.

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was a monstrous crime, and we know the context and the names of the principals.  Do you?

The Book of Abraham has excellent bona fides, and deserved canonization.  Apriori notions go in the opposite direction, but what would life be like without yokels?

Polygyny was an ancient practice of the biblical Patriarchs and remained legal within Judaism until recent centuries.  One could reasonably suppose that a "Restoration of all things" might include some items not within normal, modern American marriage customs (which includes problems which may have escaped your notice).

Subjugation of women?  Within polygyny, women became very tough and resilient, excellent managers of  homes that rarely saw Daddy.  Ever heard of suffrage?  Mormon women were the first in America to have the vote.  Today, when other religions and common practice are so dedicated to the Playboy philosophy, what other religion so strongly pushes the idea of being faithful to one's spouse?  Some of us believe that women sit in the catbird seat and call most of the shots, while men work very hard to keep up with them spiritually.  God already knows that most women have their heads on straight, and finds it necessary to constantly test and challenge the men so as to bring them up to the level of the women:  That's why men are burdened with priesthood.  You need to reappraise the situation, Law.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

I've pointed out before the absurdity of having a Church representative acknowledge "mistakes" without actually explaining what those mistakes were.

 

................................................   

Without that, he has simply stated the obvious and without any additional context, members are left to try and figure it out for themselves (see: the OP). 

 

So I, speaking for all members who might be wondering what those mistakes were, say to President Uchtdorf: "Thank you for nothing."

Sounds as though, by your lights, Pres. Uchtdorf is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

I have no trouble at all in figuring out for myself how to apply the principles he enunciated.  Principles which are regularly denied on this board by both ultra -conservative Mormons as well as angry anti-Mormons.  I think that a fair-minded and calm appraisal of what fallible Mormon leaders have managed to do over the past 180+ years is extraordinarily wise and effective -- along with some painful and really dumb errors.

[Robert F. Smith]

.........................................................................

(Link removed as I may have linked to a Dialogue article that had a bit too much endowment content for the board rules - unintentional, sorry).

It's David John Buerger in Dialogue if you're interested. 

 

.............................................................   

That was in Dialogue, 20/4 (Winter 1987), 33-76.

An excellent quotation, Canard.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[omni]

For a different view, see Will Bagley, "'One Long Funeral March": A Revisionist's View of the Mormon Handcart Disasters," Journal of Mormon History 35, no. 1 (Winter 2009): 50–115 (esp. 109–113); David Roberts, Devil's Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy (New York: Simon & Schuster, 2008); and John G. Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2012), 250–255.

 

Nevo, the walking Mormon History Encyclopedia.    Seriously, is there a book or article on Mormon history you haven't read?

[omni]

For example, who actually withheld the priesthood from African Americans?  When?  Why?  I agree that it was a mistake, but where are the relevant details from you? 

 

I appreciate you recognizing the ban as a mistake, but you are definitely in the minority of LDS and you certainly won't find any statements from the brethren recognizing it as much.

 

Who has idolized Joseph, Brigham Young, and other presidents of the LDS Church?  I have been around awhile, and just haven't seen that.phenomenon.

 

 

 

I see this all the time.  In fact just two days ago a popular Facebook meme featured a photo with the First Presidency and a caption that said, "The coolest guys in the world".  There were well over 1,000 comments on the meme and I have never seen so many "these are the most righteous men on the planet" or "these are without a doubt the greatest men in the world" type comments.

 

The Mountain Meadows Massacre was a monstrous crime, and we know the context and the names of the principals.  Do you?

 

 

Agreed.  I haven't come to a conclusion on who is ultimately responsible, but I'll err on the side of BY.

 

The Book of Abraham has excellent bona fides, and deserved canonization.  Apriori notions go in the opposite direction, but what would life be like without yokels?

 

 

Yer gonna have to speak in English fer this here yokel to understand ya.  'Merica!

 

Polygyny was an ancient practice of the biblical Patriarchs and remained legal within Judaism until recent centuries.  One could reasonably suppose that a "Restoration of all things" might include some items not within normal, modern American marriage customs (which includes problems which may have escaped your notice).

 

 

 

Interesting that the restoration of all things included the really cool stuff like men getting to marry lots of women, but not more boring stuff like really strict Sabbath observance where the Lord told us how many steps we could take, or animal sacrifice, or eye-for-an-eye, or really odd dietary restrictions--okay, so we still have some of those.

 

Subjugation of women?  

 

 

I think this was covered pretty thoroughly in the recent 37 threads regarding women and the priesthood.

Edited October 11, 2013 by omni

[canard78]

I would be interested to CFR that this was actually a criminal act. If you are referencing Oak's book, please give the quote.

Quick note to acknowledge I've seen this and will get back to you with references.

[canard78]

But just to add my $.01, had President Uchtdorf honestly elucidated what the mistakes were, I would have hoped to hear this:

Gently, gently, catchy monkey.

A huge ocean liner has to be turned around by small degrees. As much as I disagree with some of the other passengers, I've no desire to have our course corrected so violently that it ends up tipping them all overboard. Many of them are my friends, despite our theological differences.

[canard78]

Which is the heart of the issue. One in crisis has no where to turn. My family were non members, I didn't want them to see the Church as bad so I didn't tell them.

My wife and her family are LDS, I didn't want to break their hearts

I didn't tell my ward as they wouldn't have answers and they might have their own testimonies hurt.

I kept it in and had nowhere to talk. So I went online to a "LDS" discussion board. I thought it was FAIR's board and expected kind answers and fellowship.... some was and some wasn't.

People need a safe place to go and talk.... currently there are few places like this to go if any.

I'd say that a combination of conversations is advantageous.

This board is somewhat "gladiatorial" in nature but is very useful for testing assumptions. I have had some assumptions corrected (e.g. There is evidence before 1835 of a priesthood restoration) while other assumptions confirmed (e.g the priesthood ban was founded and perpetuated on prejudice or ignorance but not a revelation). It has also helped me develop the the new paradigm to deal with this conclusion.

For people seeking support and understanding for the emotional state of being in the middle of the pain of faith crises I don't think this is the right forum. Pair this forum with a moderate but not overly critical one (staylds/faceseast/a thoughtful faith) and you'd have a good combination to lead you through the crisis and into a more nuanced perspective. Only using the supportive one could become too much of an echo chamber. Only using this one could leave you a little bruised.

[Scott Lloyd]

I see no reason to exclude those two disasters when evaluating the success of using handcarts to cross the plains and in fact they are a great example of why the handcarts were not a good idea.

The Willie and Martin handcart companies, which crossed the plains simultaneously, need to be bracketed in our understanding because they were beset with a perfect storm of unfavorable circumstances -- a late start, delays, equipment not being ready when needed or being insdequate, weather conditions, imprudent choices, etc. -- that combined to bring on disaster, a combination that did not afflict the other eight handcart companies.

If you had been more careful and focused in your criticism and zeroed in on just these two companies, I might not have challenged you. But you used these as your excuse to bring broad-brush condemnation on the entire handcart venture. That's like denouncing and calling for a ban on all motor vehicle transportation because people occasionally get hurt or killed in traffic accidents.

Given the same conditions, had those companies been equipped with wagons and teams, the survival rate would have been much higher.

You seem oblivious to the fact that many people who wanted to come could not afford to equip themselves with ox-drawn wagons -- which was the very reason the handcart venture was undertaken, to get as many Church converts as possible to the Great Basin unhindered by the expense of teams and wagons. The purpose of the gathering was to have a critical mass of Church-member population at or near Church headquarters to form economically viable settlements and have the strength to withstand oppression from enemies and be a platform from which missionaries could be sent to spread the gospel around the world.

What do you mean by successful as it applies to the handcart migrations? How did they fare in relation to those pioneers who crossed the plains by more conventional means? What was the condition, after crossing, of the people who crossed by conventional means as opposed to those using hand carts? What was the financial condition of those crossing by handcart? Would they have been better served waiting in the east until they could earn the means to cross in wagons?

Again, the "conventional means were not affordable or available to many of the people who wanted and needed to come when they did.

The handcart venture ended in 1860, largely because the cloud that was the Utah War had a silver lining in that it brought to Utah much in the way of surplus government equipment, supplies, wagons, teams, etc. that could be had for relatively little cost and could then be used in the immigration effort. Hardy and experienced teamsters comprised the "down-and-back" teams that went east to escort arriving Church converts from Europe and the British Isles across the plains to Salt Lake City. This lasted for less than a decade, because the connecting of the transcontinental railroad at Promontory, Utah, on May 10, 1869, rendered obsolete both wagons and handcarts as means of overland travel.

Why was there a need to rush across the plains when many could have waited a year or a season and equipped themselves much better?

A year would not have been enough time for some people in their condition of poverty. And this has already been answered. It was necessary as soon as possible to get as many to Utah as wanted to come so the Church could see to the task of building Zion and establishing a strong base of operations.

The presence of the surplus government supplies in Utah that outfitted the down-and-back teams was fortuitous, but it could not have been foreseen when the handcart venture was launched. And it was not known when the railroad would be completed.

I honestly do not know the answer to these questions but based on what I have read about the handcarts they were not capable of carrying enough food and clothing to adequately provide for the people pushing them.

Not by themselves. But the scheme was to have support wagon trains traveling with the handcart companies to haul what could not be carried on the carts. For example, the Hunt and Hodges wagon trains traveled with the Martin company and got caught in the same disastrous conditions that beset the handcart pioneers.

I think it is tough to argue that those that used them would not have had an easier time crossing the plains had they been in wagons.

Already answered. They couldn't afford to outfit themselves with wagons and teams.

So I am wondering what you mean by successful.

That those eight handcart companies got more people to Utah at the time they needed to come, this with minimal suffering or loss of life.

The ox-drawn wagons, handcarts, down-and-back teams and railroad each served their purpose at various times in the history of 19th century Mormon migration at the times when they were needed.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[BCSpace]

 I'm looking for some help from the thoughtful people here to finish off my list.

 

Why not ask for help from thoughtful people as to why the items on your list aren't mistakes?

[Scott Lloyd]

I agree that if we don't count the disasters, the handcart plan was very successful.

This is probably because you are better read than CA Steve appears to be on this chapter of Mormon Trail history.

[Scott Lloyd]

For a different view, see Will Bagley, "'One Long Funeral March": A Revisionist's View of the Mormon Handcart Disasters," Journal of Mormon History 35, no. 1 (Winter 2009): 50–115 (esp. 109–113); David Roberts, Devil's Gate: Brigham Young and the Great Mormon Handcart Tragedy (New York: Simon & Schuster, 2008); and John G. Turner, Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 2012), 250–255.

If, as the titles suggest, these sources are about the Willie and Martin company treks, then I don't see how they counter the view that the other eight companies were successful, as they did not encounter disasters. Edited October 11, 2013 by Scott Lloyd