Top 10 Mistakes

[WmLaw]

“Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past.  We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church History, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.  Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience.  When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.  Sometimes there’s a difference of opinion as to what the facts really mean.  A question that creates doubt in some, can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.  And to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes.  There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.  I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings.  God is perfect and his doctrine is pure.  But he works thru us, his imperfect children.  And imperfect people make mistakes.”  - President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Oct. 05, 20

 

In light of President Uchtdorf's marvelous talk last Saturday, I've started to compile my Top 10 List of things that I have long considered to be possible mistakes from Church History.  I'm looking for some help from the thoughtful people here to finish off my list.  Here's what I have so far (not necessarily in order):

 

1. Polygamy 

2. Canonization of the BOA

3. Idolization of JS

4. Idolization of BY, and subsequent Presidents of the Church

5. The MMM

6. Withholding the Priesthood from Blacks

7. Subjugation of female roles (i.e. thru unfortunate language in temple ordinances, etc.)

8. 

9.

10.

 

other thoughts?

[JLHPROF]

“Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past.  We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church History, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.  Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience.  When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.  Sometimes there’s a difference of opinion as to what the facts really mean.  A question that creates doubt in some, can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.  And to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes.  There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.  I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings.  God is perfect and his doctrine is pure.  But he works thru us, his imperfect children.  And imperfect people make mistakes.”  - President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Oct. 05, 20

 

In light of President Uchtdorf's marvelous talk last Saturday, I've started to compile my Top 10 List of things that I have long considered to be possible mistakes from Church History.  I'm looking for some help from the thoughtful people here to finish off my list.  Here's what I have so far (not necessarily in order):

 

1. Polygamy 

2. Canonization of the BOA

3. Idolization of JS

4. Idolization of BY, and subsequent Presidents of the Church

5. The MMM

6. Withholding the Priesthood from Blacks

7. Subjugation of female roles (i.e. thru unfortunate language in temple ordinances, etc.)

8. 

9.

10.

 

other thoughts?

 

I take great exception to numbers 1 & 7 - these were not policies of the Presidents of the Church, but ordinances given by direct revelation from God.  God does not make mistakes, therefore plural marriage and temple ordinances are not mistakes, even if you don't like them.

(And frankly, I disagree with 2 & 3 as well).

Edited October 7, 2013 by JLHPROF

[thesometimesaint]

“Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past.  We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church History, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.  Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience.  When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.  Sometimes there’s a difference of opinion as to what the facts really mean.  A question that creates doubt in some, can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.  And to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes.  There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.  I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings.  God is perfect and his doctrine is pure.  But he works thru us, his imperfect children.  And imperfect people make mistakes.”  - President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Oct. 05, 20

 

In light of President Uchtdorf's marvelous talk last Saturday, I've started to compile my Top 10 List of things that I have long considered to be possible mistakes from Church History.  I'm looking for some help from the thoughtful people here to finish off my list.  Here's what I have so far (not necessarily in order):

 

1. Polygamy 

2. Canonization of the BOA

3. Idolization of JS

4. Idolization of BY, and subsequent Presidents of the Church

5. The MMM

6. Withholding the Priesthood from Blacks

7. Subjugation of female roles (i.e. thru unfortunate language in temple ordinances, etc.)

8. 

9.

10.

 

other thoughts?

 

1. Not a mnistake. It did raise up seed to our God.

2. Not a mistake. Much of our Temple ceremonies come from the BoA.

3. He was a good man. Whom helped usher in the final dispensation of time until the return of the Lord. That doesn't mean that he was without faults.

4. He was a good man. Whom helped those early Saints survive the persecutions that forced them out of the US. That doesn't mean that he was without faults.

5. A tragic event, but one not supported by our theology or by the Church.

6. For his own reasons God has withheld or given the Priesthood as he desires. Maybe one day we'll know why he has repeatedly done so.

7. I see no subjugation. Men are to lead in righteousness. No woman is required to follow her husband into Hell. Both are to serve God and their fellow man.

[WmLaw]

God does not make mistakes.

I agree.

With regard to the temple, I mentioned the wording used in ordinances - which has been changed many times over the years.

Edited October 7, 2013 by WmLaw

[WmLaw]

1. Not a mnistake. It did raise up seed to our God.

2. Not a mistake. Much of our Temple ceremonies come from the BoA.

3. He was a good man. Whom helped usher in the final dispensation of time until the return of the Lord. That doesn't mean that he was without faults.

4. He was a good man. Whom helped those early Saints survive the persecutions that forced them out of the US. That doesn't mean that he was without faults.

5. A tragic event, but one not supported by our theology or by the Church.

6. For his own reasons God has withheld or given the Priesthood as he desires. Maybe one day we'll know why he has repeatedly done so.

7. I see no subjugation. Men are to lead in righteousness. No woman is required to follow her husband into Hell. Both are to serve God and their fellow man.

I agree with your comments on 3, 4, and 5.

[jkwilliams]

Top ten biggest mistakes the church has made, IMO:

 

10. The Family, and Other Living Things
9. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir's "Tribute to Tupac" CD
8. Saturday's Warrior
7. High Council speakers
6. The little factory analogy
5. The Investigator Extraction program

4. The passive triplet

3. Conference speakers who don't understand the 3-camera concept

2. The "chiasmus" lesson in the nursery manual

1. Hiring me

[EllenMaksoud]

I take great exception to numbers 1 & 7 - these were not policies of the Presidents of the Church, but ordinances given by direct revelation from God.  God does not make mistakes, therefore plural marriage and temple ordinances are not mistakes, even if you don't like them.

(And frankly, I disagree with 2 & 3 as well).

After sitting through General Conference, and listening to the perspective of the speakers,  I am firmly convinced that in the future, it will be so difficult for devout Mormon women to find suitable male companions that, the obvious will happen.

[WmLaw]

Top ten biggest mistakes the church has made, IMO:

10. The Family, and Other Living Things

9. The Mormon Tabernacle Choir's "Tribute to Tupac" CD

8. Saturday's Warrior

7. High Council speakers

6. The little factory analogy

5. The Investigator Extraction program

4. The passive triplet

3. Conference speakers who don't understand the 3-camera concept

2. The "chiasmus" lesson in the nursery manual

1. Hiring me

Thanks for your list. I did get a chuckle out of it.

[omni]

“Some struggle with unanswered questions about things that have been done or said in the past.  We openly acknowledge that in nearly 200 years of Church History, along with an uninterrupted line of inspired, honorable, and divine events, there have been some things said and done that could cause people to question.  Sometimes questions arise because we simply don’t have all the information and we just need a bit more patience.  When the entire truth is eventually known, things that didn’t make sense to us before will be resolved to our satisfaction.  Sometimes there’s a difference of opinion as to what the facts really mean.  A question that creates doubt in some, can, after careful investigation, build faith in others.  And to be perfectly frank, there have been times when members or leaders in the Church have simply made mistakes.  There may have been things said or done that were not in harmony with our values, principles, or doctrine.  I suppose the Church would only be perfect, if it were run by perfect beings.  God is perfect and his doctrine is pure.  But he works thru us, his imperfect children.  And imperfect people make mistakes.”  - President Dieter F. Uchtdorf, Oct. 05, 20

 

In light of President Uchtdorf's marvelous talk last Saturday, I've started to compile my Top 10 List of things that I have long considered to be possible mistakes from Church History.  I'm looking for some help from the thoughtful people here to finish off my list.  Here's what I have so far (not necessarily in order):

 

1. Polygamy 

2. Canonization of the BOA

3. Idolization of JS

4. Idolization of BY, and subsequent Presidents of the Church

5. The MMM

6. Withholding the Priesthood from Blacks

7. Subjugation of female roles (i.e. thru unfortunate language in temple ordinances, etc.)

8. 

9.

10.

 

other thoughts?

The idea that the prophet is fallible, but not really (wink wink, nudge nudge) as seen in the following teachings: a prophet will never lead the church astray, when the prophet has spoken the debate is over, and the 14 fundamentals of a prophet.

[thesometimesaint]

The idea that the prophet is fallible, but not really (wink wink, nudge nudge) as seen in the following teachings: a prophet will never lead the church astray, when the prophet has spoken the debate is over, and the 14 fundamentals of a prophet.

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/when-the-prophet-speaks-is-the-thinking-done

 

The Catholics claim the Pope is infallible and don't believe it, and the LDS claim the Prophet is fallible and don't believe it.

[jkwilliams]

http://www.fairlds.org/authors/misc/when-the-prophet-speaks-is-the-thinking-done

 

The Catholics claim the Pope is infallible and don't believe it, and the LDS claim the Prophet is fallible and don't believe it.

I think there's something to that. It's interesting how the words of dead prophets are often dismissed as personal opinion, such as a lot of what Brigham Young taught as essential doctrine, whereas even fairly inconsequential statements by the living prophet are taken as absolutes (President Hinckley's thoughts on caffeine and earrings come to mind).

[Freedom]

Some mistakes:

1) Small temples - less than 15,000 ft2 was just a bad idea

2) Allowing non-priesthood holders to participate in priesthood ordinances.

3) Putting all teaching material online but not providing internet access and monitors in classrooms with concrete walls

4) Installing air conditioning units above a floating ceiling where excessive condensations leads to water damaged ceiling tiles

5) Forgetting to include a mothers room in the basic plan of church buildings and leaving the builder to make last minute alterations once the RS found out about it.

6) Removing mops from church buildings and leaving us to use these little microfiber clothes that are useless when cleaning up large spills

7) Taking so long to address our history and having lessons explain that yes, we did practise polygamy.

Language based units. If you are in an English speaking country (or german or Spanish), learn the local language or you will for ever be ostracized and underemployed.

9) Chey impalas? Who ever thought those would be a good investment as a missionary vehicle?

10) Failing to property beta test the new financial software, leading to the deletion of all data and a resulting overspending by many units.

 

Oh, I have many more but these are the ones that have tested my faith the most. #6 should be #1. I just get angry whenever I look in the custodians closet.  

[Buckeye]

Are you talking about just mistaken teachings from church leaders or mistakes in general?  As for the latter, the D/C is full of examples where the church body (not just the leaders) failed to live up to something: United Order, WOW, redemption of Zion (jackson county), etc.

 

If you're looking for significant mistakes by church leaders, I would consider:

• Joseph burning down the expositor (though technically legal)
• Joseph Sr's alcholism and love of magic (not too different from his contemporaries)
• Brigham's racism and violence (not too different from his contemporaries)
• Joseph F. Smith's perjury to congress re polygamy during the Smoot hearings
• Failure to build up the church in foreign lands until the mid-1930s (+/- decade) under the belief that all should be physically gathered together.
• Building non-square temples in Ogden and Provo (at least for Nibley)
• Failure to properly prepare BYU for the Utah game the past 4 years (IMO, unforgiveable)

If you're looking for significant teachings that have been discarded or downplayed:

• Adam-God
• Temple vengence oaths
• D/C's requirement that tithing apply to all assets of a new member upon joining (removed by Pres. Snow)
• Large portions of McConkie's Mormon Doctrine
• Incapatability of scripture with (i) LGT, (ii) local flood, (iii) evolution, or other scientic issues
• Contraception is contrary to God's plan
• Gays should marry someone of the opposite sex in order to be cured.

 

*** Note ***  In making lists such as this, it would also be helpful to list the many inspired and wise choices made by leaders.  IMO, it would be much easier to come up with a top 10, or top 100 , or top 1000 list of good decisions than to make a list of mistakes.

[rpn]

The only mistakes that I think apply or might apply but we don't yet know that for sure, are: 

1) Polyandry or the sealing other than to spouses/ancestors  (which was corrected by revelation by Wilford Woodruff)

2) Withholding the priesthood from people of black african origin (which was corrected by revelation in 1978)

3)  Inserting the BRM headings/introductions in the scriptures in a way that left church members believing they were scripture too (some corrected this previous spring, but not all)

4)  The silkworm industry start up and the kirtland bank.

5)  Excommunication of various people who did not meet the definition of apostasy or serious sin, mostly for challenging people in an annoying way.

6) Publishing and using the famous picture of Joseph Smtih translating the plates, leaving a largely erroneous mental picture of the translation process, and continuing to do so now that we know it is largely erroneous.

[JLHPROF]

I think there's something to that. It's interesting how the words of dead prophets are often dismissed as personal opinion, such as a lot of what Brigham Young taught as essential doctrine, whereas even fairly inconsequential statements by the living prophet are taken as absolutes (President Hinckley's thoughts on caffeine and earrings come to mind).

That is a real issue for me - if we can say that past prophets teachings given in official church capacities were simply opinion, not doctrine, then all we have to do if we don't like a current prophetic teaching is wait for that prophet to pass away.  Then we can rewrite doctrine again.

[thesometimesaint]

I think there's something to that. It's interesting how the words of dead prophets are often dismissed as personal opinion, such as a lot of what Brigham Young taught as essential doctrine, whereas even fairly inconsequential statements by the living prophet are taken as absolutes (President Hinckley's thoughts on caffeine and earrings come to mind).

 

Theologically speaking I'll take one living prophet over a hundred dead ones.

 

Ps. I'm really glad I don't have to build a boat.

Edited October 7, 2013 by thesometimesaint

[WmLaw]

 

• Failure to build up the church in foreign lands until the mid-1930s (+/- decade) under the belief that all should be physically gathered together.

Along this same line of thinking, I would stress the emphasis on gathering together and/or a mass exodus to a new location as a mistake. From what I understand some of the early persecution was due to large groups of saints gathering in a location and changing the local politics, by essentially voting as a group.  (Additionally all the casualties and hardships caused by the move to Utah.)

[Brenda]

1. Not a mnistake. It did raise up seed to our God.

2. Not a mistake. Much of our Temple ceremonies come from the BoA.

3. He was a good man. Whom helped usher in the final dispensation of time until the return of the Lord. That doesn't mean that he was without faults.

4. He was a good man. Whom helped those early Saints survive the persecutions that forced them out of the US. That doesn't mean that he was without faults.

5. A tragic event, but one not supported by our theology or by the Church.

6. For his own reasons God has withheld or given the Priesthood as he desires. Maybe one day we'll know why he has repeatedly done so.

7. I see no subjugation. Men are to lead in righteousness. No woman is required to follow her husband into Hell. Both are to serve God and their fellow man.

I agree with you seven times.

[Duncan]

these are some of my gripes I guess

 

1) no spell check on Mormon.org

2) Missionaries wearing ties that were made decades before they were born

3) ward boundaries based on who currently live there. The second coming will happen first before you are allowed to change them

4) the PM group that never fixes anything

5) Getting a cool job and all of a sudden you are on the high council or bishopric...you know and do crap about the Gospel but who cares

6) no place in church to ask questions, the environment is not conducive to ask what you want to ask for fear of embarassment or ridicule or whatever

7) ward mission plans

extroverts as the ideal, not everyone is. Quit trying to fit square pegs into round holes, but that can go too far as well. I can't tell you how many times I get asked   to play to the harpsichord in church -find someone else!!

9) ward council and PEC are the same thing except a few more people. What is so different about PEC that you need an extra meeting?

10) giving general conference talks in sacrament meetings. Unless this is General Conference and you are Sister Lulubell Penelope Ludkins or Elder J. Obama Mulroney then I want to hear what YOU have to say

 

the "eight" keeps coming up as an emoticon, so maybe add that to my list!

Edited October 7, 2013 by Duncan

[omni]

Some mistakes:

1) Small temples - less than 15,000 ft2 was just a bad idea

 

 

Slight derail--I've never been to a small temple, but I've never heard anything bad about them.  Curious as to what's your reasoning behind them on the list.

 

While we're on the topic of bad church building ideas--how in the world after the thousands of meeting houses built have they not figured out that the corners where the RS or primary rooms are located need to be enlarged?!  There's always a major traffic jam at that corner in-between meetings.  When will the Mormon Frank Lloyd Wright fix this embarrassment?  Okay...rant over.

[CA Steve]

Handcart migration

[Duncan]

Handcart migration

 

 

and the perpetuation thereof

[canard78]

I take great exception to numbers 1 & 7 - these were not policies of the Presidents of the Church, but ordinances given by direct revelation from God.  God does not make mistakes, therefore plural marriage and temple ordinances are not mistakes, even if you don't like them.

(And frankly, I disagree with 2 & 3 as well).

 

I love the temple ordinances... but I'm not sure we can call them "direct revelation from God." At least not a "scripted and unchangeable" revelation.

 

The endowment wording and structure has changed many, many times and came in as a fairly organic structure. Brigham Young talks about their evolution here:

 

 

"Bro[ther] Joseph [smith] turned to me [brigham Young] and said: “Brother Brigham this is not arranged right, but we have done the best we could under the circumstances in which we are placed, and I wish you to take this mat[t]er in hand and organize and systematize all these ceremonies with the signs, tokens, penalties and key words.” I did so and each time I got something more; so that when we went through the Temple at Nauvoo, I understood and knew how to place them there. We had our ceremonies pretty correct."

 

 

(Link removed as I may have linked to a Dialogue article that had a bit too much endowment content for the board rules - unintentional, sorry).

It's David John Buerger in Dialogue if you're interested. 

 

I'm not saying that what we have or what we had in the Endowment is among the mistakes referenced by Elder Uchtdorf, but elements of it could be legitimately adapted in future.

Edited October 8, 2013 by canard78

[canard78]

Are these things we'd like to chuck on the bonfire or things that you think can be evidenced as 'mistakes' (when the weight of other statements puts it in a position of being unsustainable)?

 

For example, I'd like to put Polygamy on the bonfire of 'mistakes' - but it's in the Old Testament, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price (I think?). Add to that the fact that no modern leader has ever denounced it, I find it hard to justify being on the list.

 

Polyandry? Possibly easier to say he went to far (if you ignore the claim of an angel).

 

Mountain Meadows Massacre? How is that only at number 7??! Yes of course a mistake. As was some of the reticence to prosecute quickly.

 

I would say the 14 fundamentals were a mistake - but again, that's because I don't like them. Given I accept that the prophets sometimes reach the incorrect conclusion due the the haze of seeing through the dark glass I also fully accept that I'm probably even more wrong. So for me to start saying "you're wrong, even though I know I sometimes am" puts me on thin ice. I'd still say "I don't agree with you" but that's different to saying "I'm right, you're wrong, shut up."

[JLHPROF]

 

I love the temple ordinances... but I'm not sure we can call them "direct revelation from God." At least not a "scripted and unchangeable" revelation.

 

The endowment wording and structure has changed many, many times and came in as a fairly organic structure. Brigham Young talks about their evolution here:

 

(Link removed as I may have linked to a Dialogue article that had a bit too much endowment content for the board rules - unintentional, sorry).

It's David John Buerger in Dialogue if you're interested. 

 

I'm not saying that what we have or what we had in the Endowment is among the mistakes referenced by Elder Uchtdorf, but elements of it could be legitimately adapted in future.

 

 

I think anyone who has been to the temple (at least before 1990) should be able to recognize the difference between things that were necessary to the ordinance itself and the parts that were clearly not ancient and unchanging.

To put it as clearly as I can here  - the things we are blessed with & given, taught how to do and covenant to do should not be altered, but how they are presented is probably what Joseph meant when he told Brigham that they were not arranged right.

Just my opinion.