Top 10 Mistakes

[Tacenda]

If, as the titles suggest, these sources are about the Willie and Martin company treks, then I don't see how they counter the view that the other eight companies were successful, as they did not encounter disasters.

"The Price We Paid" is another book about the Willie and Martin company. A close friend to my family growing up told me to read it because it featured a story about my relatives I never knew about. The freshly baked pie in the road incident.

[Calm]

Gently, gently, catchy monkey.

 

Question....is this a real saying?

Edited October 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[Nevo]

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Edited October 1, 2014 by Nevo

[Robert F. Smith]

Robert F. Smith, on 10 Oct 2013 - 9:49 PM, said:

For example, who actually withheld the priesthood from African Americans?  When?  Why?  I agree that it was a mistake, but where are the relevant details from you? 

I appreciate you recognizing the ban as a mistake, but you are definitely in the minority of LDS and you certainly won't find any statements from the brethren recognizing it as much.

Not clear on what you are suggesting here (perhaps you meant "such" instead of "much"), but you did not answer any of my questions on this issue (see immediately above).  Bean counters are interested in "minority"-"majority" issues, while I am interested in factual appraisals.

 

 

I see this all the time.  In fact just two days ago a popular Facebook meme featured a photo with the First Presidency and a caption that said, "The coolest guys in the world".  There were well over 1,000 comments on the meme and I have never seen so many "these are the most righteous men on the planet" or "these are without a doubt the greatest men in the world" type comments.

Again, are we focusing on shallow social media opinionmongering, or on factual appraisals?  I simply never see so-called "idolization" at Church or in Church publications and it has been 63 years since I was baptized.  The Facebook instances you speak of seem like juvenile extravagance, which even those contributing to it would deny is "idolization."

 

 

Agreed.  I haven't come to a conclusion on who is ultimately responsible, but I'll err on the side of BY.

You might try a hard forensic inquiry, such as is available in several recent books and articles showing that it would have been impossible for a messenger to get to Brigham Young and back in time to stop the horrible event.  In fact, that is just what happened.  A rider was sent to Young and got back to Ceder City too late to stop the massacre.  Young's message was to let the Fancher train pass.  Instead, you adopt an apriori blame game (If it happened in Utah, it was Young's fault).  Is that fair?  Moreover, are you aware of the irony in that the opposing principals: Fancher and Lee had actually once been on the same side of a massacre of Indians, including women and children?  Long ago, during the 1832 Black Hawk War (even Albert Sidney Johnston was involved in that as chief of staff).

 

 

Yer gonna have to speak in English fer this here yokel to understand ya.  'Merica!

See my “A Brief Assessment of the LDS Book of Abraham,” Dec 2012, online at http://www.scribd.com/doc/118810727/A-Brief-Assessment-of-the-LDS-Book-of-Abraham , which gives very little succor to negative opinions. 

 

 

Interesting that the restoration of all things included the really cool stuff like men getting to marry lots of women, but not more boring stuff like really strict Sabbath observance where the Lord told us how many steps we could take, or animal sacrifice, or eye-for-an-eye, or really odd dietary restrictions--okay, so we still have some of those.

Unfortunately, most of those later rabbinical rules did not exist in Patriarchal times, so that the rabbis have a hard time explaining why the Patriarchs violated so many of them.  As for the imaginary "cool stuff" like lots of wives, Mark Twain had a more realistic take on the matter, after visiting Salt Lake City (Roughing It):

 

“Our stay in Salt Lake City amounted to only two days, and therefore we had no time to make the customary inquisition into the workings of polygamy and get up the usual statistics and deductions preparatory to calling the attention of the nation at large once more to the matter.
 
“I had the will to do it. With the gushing self-sufficiency of youth I was feverish to plunge in headlong and achieve a great reform here—until I saw the Mormon women. Then I was touched. My heart was wiser than my head. It warmed toward these poor, ungainly and pathetically “homely” creatures, and as I turned to hide the generous moisture in my eyes, I said, ‘No—the man that marries one of them has done an act of Christian charity which entitles him to the kindly applause of mankind, not their harsh censure—and the man that marries sixty of them has done a deed of open-handed generosity so sublime that the nations should stand uncovered in his presence and worship in silence.’”

 

I think this was covered pretty thoroughly in the recent 37 threads regarding women and the priesthood.

Except that you don't seem to understand that priesthood is not a privilege, but a burden.  Men need it to be tested and challenged.  Women, thankfully don't, although they perforce exercise regular priesthood functions in the temple.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Robert F. Smith

[Calm]

They do indeed challenge the view that the handcart plan was, by and large, a "success." Bagley notes, among other things, that "even the last 'successful' handcart emigrants [were brought] to the brink of starvation" (112). None of the handcart companies had sufficient provisions. The emigrants routinely lacked adequate food and clothing.

I had read that many were in the same situation though just waiting at the other end, they had limited income and not a lot of opportunity for work to earn money or land to grow their own food on while they were waiting....especially given that winter was coming for the last two groups.  Isn't this why they decided to go?

 

 If so, then it seems like a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't situation'.

Edited October 11, 2013 by calmoriah

[cursor]

 

extroverts as the ideal, not everyone is. Quit trying to fit square pegs into round holes, but that can go too far as well. I can't tell you how many times I get asked   to play to the harpsichord in church -find someone else!!

9) ward council and PEC are the same thing except a few more people. What is so different about PEC that you need an extra meeting?

10) giving general conference talks in sacrament meetings. Unless this is General Conference and you are Sister Lulubell Penelope Ludkins or Elder J. Obama Mulroney then I want to hear what YOU have to say

 

the "eight" keeps coming up as an emoticon, so maybe add that to my list!

 

Just uncheck the Post Option box labeled "Enable emoticons,"  when creating a post.

[omni]

Robert F. Smith, on 10 Oct 2013 - 9:49 PM, said:

Just for clarification on the MMM question when I said I will error on the side of BY, I was meaning in his favor--as in he didn't order it.

[Nathair/|\]

I absolutely and categorically reject any of the items in the OP as being official mistakes of the Church or of the General Authorities.  I wholeheartedly sustain the practice of polygamy in all forms it was practiced by the Bretheren.  The Books of Abraham and Moses are some of my favorite books of scripture.  

MMM and to the limited extent it occurs, idolization of the leadership (My mom, for example, seems to think BRM's Bible Dictionary is inerrant, meaning I can't share some of the exciting stuff I've found like DCP's Nephi and his Asherah with her.) are faults of members not following the will of the Savior as taught them by His Church.

 

There is however, one small matter that bugs me, probably due to my libertarian tendencies.  I'm sure if I learn more about it, it won't bother me any more.  That is the program where Native American children were taken from their homes, families and tribes and sent to boarding schools to learn to live in the manner of the dominant culture.  In other cases I know of, they didn't have a choice, and were punished severely for speaking in their own tongue or practicing any distinctive aspect of their own culture.  I once had an acquaintance from the Blackfoot nation who was sent to such a school (not run by the Church as I recall) and I remember well the pain he shared and his determination not to allow his culture to be lost.  

[Tacenda]

I absolutely and categorically reject any of the items in the OP as being official mistakes of the Church or of the General Authorities. I wholeheartedly sustain the practice of polygamy in all forms it was practiced by the Bretheren. The Books of Abraham and Moses are some of my favorite books of scripture.

MMM and to the limited extent it occurs, idolization of the leadership (My mom, for example, seems to think BRM's Bible Dictionary is inerrant, meaning I can't share some of the exciting stuff I've found like DCP's Nephi and his Asherah with her.) are faults of members not following the will of the Savior as taught them by His Church.

There is however, one small matter that bugs me, probably due to my libertarian tendencies. I'm sure if I learn more about it, it won't bother me any more. That is the program where Native American children were taken from their homes, families and tribes and sent to boarding schools to learn to live in the manner of the dominant culture. In other cases I know of, they didn't have a choice, and were punished severely for speaking in their own tongue or practicing any distinctive aspect of their own culture. I once had an acquaintance from the Blackfoot nation who was sent to such a school (not run by the Church as I recall) and I remember well the pain he shared and his determination not to allow his culture to be lost.

White and delightsome!

[Calm]

 

There is however, one small matter that bugs me, probably due to my libertarian tendencies.  I'm sure if I learn more about it, it won't bother me any more.  That is the program where Native American children were taken from their homes, families and tribes and sent to boarding schools to learn to live in the manner of the dominant culture.  

You might find the info located in this footnote helpful:

 

http://tinyurl.com/k56a2zr

 

I have the second reference, Contemporary Mormonism, and summarize the results of the study of the Indian Student Placement Services (this was LDS students placed with LDS families, not in boarding school) as indicating that 1/3 of the participants stayed in the program and graduated from high school, 82% completed high school even if they had dropped out of the program compared to 45% of the control group...meaning involvement almost doubled one's likelihood to graduate.  For participants over 25, the rate was 91% compared to 65%.  The longer they were in placement, the greater the likelihood as well.

 

More participants were currently working with higher status (higher pay not statistically significant) jobs, more often in the service sector, in social work and community service jobs.  The longer in placement, the more likely employed and greater earned income.

 

Results were mixed concerning social adjustment.  On the one hand, placement participation was associated with a significantly higher arrest rate.  On the other hand, participants had significantly more friends.  Placement experience had little relation to marriage, organization membership, or voting behavior.  The length of placement exposure was related to being married and to the number of close friends

 

 

Participation was associated with higher general happiness and a stronger perception of being at ease in the white world.  It was also related to a modest lessening of Indian identity.  The lessening of Indian identity is not surprising given the time spent in a white home, and it is probably related to the feelings of competence in the white world....Serious maladaptive behaviors did not materialize following participation any more frequently than they appeared in the lives of the control group members.

 

The more time a participant had spent in a strong LDS family, the stronger the religious beliefs.

 

pages 292-309

 

BTW, the program started as a result of the children's parents asking for LDS families to take in their children, not initiated by the Church.  The Utah boarding school...I think they were actually government...not church owned, though substantially run by church members, but no info on that in my book.

 

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormon-navajo-youth-at-the-intermountain-indian-boarding-school/

Edited October 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[canard78]

That was in Dialogue, 20/4 (Winter 1987), 33-76.

An excellent quotation, Canard.

 

Thanks - people can google it for themselves if interested. I don't think it crossed any specific boundary in terms of breaking covenants of secrecy - but I didn't want to risk it.

 

A close friend has struggled for a long time about the big changes in the endowment. In and amongst all my concerns the endowment changes has never been one of them. I'm glad we have evidence that right from the start it was an organic and changing ceremony.

[Nathair/|\]

You might find the info located in this footnote helpful:

 

http://tinyurl.com/k56a2zr

 

I have the second reference, Contemporary Mormonism, and summarize the results of the study of the Indian Student Placement Services (this was LDS students placed with LDS families, not in boarding school) as indicating that 1/3 of the participants stayed in the program and graduated from high school, 82% completed high school even if they had dropped out of the program compared to 45% of the control group...meaning involvement almost doubled one's likelihood to graduate.  For participants over 25, the rate was 91% compared to 65%.  The longer they were in placement, the greater the likelihood as well.

 

More participants were currently working with higher status (higher pay not statistically significant) jobs, more often in the service sector, in social work and community service jobs.  The longer in placement, the more likely employed and greater earned income.

 

pages 292-309

 

BTW, the program started as a result of the children's parents asking for LDS families to take in their children, not initiated by the Church.  The Utah boarding school...I think they were actually government...not church owned, though substantially run by church members, but no info on that in my book.

 

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormon-navajo-youth-at-the-intermountain-indian-boarding-school/

Thank you, Cal.  That's just what I needed.  I suspected it was something like that.

[canard78]

I would be interested to CFR that this was actually a criminal act.  If you are referencing Oak's book, please give the quote.

 

Here you go:

 

Joseph Smith, as mayor, ordered the city marshal, John Greene, to destroy the press, scatter the type, and burn any remaining newspapers. The order was carried out within hours. The city council acted legally to abate a public nuisance, although the legal opinion of the time allowed only the destruction of the published issues of the offending paper. The demolition of the press was a violation of property rights.

(Footnote to: See Dallin H. Oaks, “The Suppression of the Nauvoo Expositor,”Utah Law Review, Winter 1965, pp. 890–91.)

 

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-twenty-two-the-martyrdom?lang=eng

[Tacenda]

Thank you, Cal. That's just what I needed. I suspected it was something like that.

So it wasn't what the critics say....to make them white and delightsome as per Pres. Kimball? I am sorry for my previous jab above, sometimes I can be really immature. Thank goodness we have Mother Cal to keep us straight!

[cdowis]

Here you go:

 

https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-twenty-two-the-martyrdom?lang=eng

 

Yes, I am quite familiar with that citation.  

 

But I note that it fails to clarify whether "violation of property rights" by a government entity a criminal or a civil issue -- since it violates the Federal constitution.  Specifically, the owners may sue the city for reimbursement as a constitutional issue, but can they have the city council arrested and thrown into jail.  

 

Can a justice of the peace be thrown into jail for refusing to perform a marriage ceremony for a SS couple if it is legal.  What about irregularities in zoning ordinances vs state law.

 

Your use of "illegal" is used in the context of Joseph Smith being arrested and imprisoned, rather than a formal demand to appear in court for a civil case.

Edited October 12, 2013 by cdowis

[Calm]

cdowis mentioned the civil/criminal issue...do either of you know which it was actually?  Just curious.

Edited October 12, 2013 by calmoriah

[Calm]

So it wasn't what the critics say....to make them white and delightsome as per Pres. Kimball? I am sorry for my previous jab above, sometimes I can be really immature. Thank goodness we have Mother Cal to keep us straight!

Nope, the purpose was to give them a chance at getting better education with all that implies for later in life which the program was successful in doing to a good extent; it was also hoped there would be a significant effect on religious aspects of their lives...this was not found according to what the study looked at.

[Scott Lloyd]

You might find the info located in this footnote helpful:

http://tinyurl.com/k56a2zr

I have the second reference, Contemporary Mormonism, and summarize the results of the study of the Indian Student Placement Services (this was LDS students placed with LDS families, not in boarding school) as indicating that 1/3 of the participants stayed in the program and graduated from high school, 82% completed high school even if they had dropped out of the program compared to 45% of the control group...meaning involvement almost doubled one's likelihood to graduate. For participants over 25, the rate was 91% compared to 65%. The longer they were in placement, the greater the likelihood as well.

More participants were currently working with higher status (higher pay not statistically significant) jobs, more often in the service sector, in social work and community service jobs. The longer in placement, the more likely employed and greater earned income.

pages 292-309

BTW, the program started as a result of the children's parents asking for LDS families to take in their children, not initiated by the Church. The Utah boarding school...I think they were actually government...not church owned, though substantially run by church members, but no info on that in my book.

http://www.juvenileinstructor.org/mormon-navajo-youth-at-the-intermountain-indian-boarding-school/

Thanks for posting this information, Cal.

I have anecdotal information about the value of the student placement program. Our former bishop's wife is a product of it. She is one of the stalwarts in our ward and stake, a very effective Young Women leader.

The Intermountain Indian School was in Brigham City, Utah. It was a federal boarding school run by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It was still open in the early 1980s, when I worked for the Ogden Standard-Examiner. I covered the closure of the school, very controversial at the time.

[thesometimesaint]

I see no reason to exclude those two disasters when evaluating the success of using handcarts to cross the plains and in fact they are a great example of why the handcarts were not a good idea. Given the same conditions, had those companies been equipped with wagons and teams, the survival rate would have been much higher.

 

What do you mean by successful as it applies to the handcart migrations? How did they fare in relation to those pioneers who crossed the plains by more conventional means? What was the condition, after crossing, of the people who crossed by conventional means as opposed to those using hand carts?  What was the financial condition of those crossing by handcart? Would they have been better served waiting in the east until they could earn the means to cross in wagons? Why was there a need to rush across the plains when many could have waited a year or a season and equipped themselves much better? I honestly do not know the answer to these questions but based on what I have read about the handcarts they were not capable of carrying enough food and clothing to adequately provide for the people pushing them. I think it is tough to argue that those that used them would not have had an easier time crossing the plains had they been in wagons.  So I am wondering what you mean by successful.

 

I think we should include them. We also need to include the testamonies of those that survived those incidences.

 

The handcart pioneers didn't have the money to purchase other means. They were poor with few if any prospects the earn the needed money for "fancier" rigs pulled by horse or oxen. They did just about as well well as other pioneers crossing the plains and intermountain west of the early mid to late 1800's. Actually it was enough provision to maintain the hard work needed to cross the American frontier. What it wasn't enough for was early snow and snow storms.

[Calm]

The Intermountain Indian School was in Brigham City, Utah. It was a federal boarding school run by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. It was still open in the early 1980s, when I worked for the Ogden Standard-Examiner. I covered the closure of the school, very controversial at the time.

I read a few articles about it, sounds from them it was generally well thought of, considered to be better run then many other such schools.

 

Undoubtedly as with all boarding schools and government run facilities there are likely problems that occurred.  Hopefully they were few and far between.

[Scott Lloyd]

I read a few articles about it, sounds from them it was generally well thought of, considered to be better run then many other such schools.

 

Undoubtedly as with all boarding schools and government run facilities there are likely problems that occurred.  Hopefully they were few and far between.

My memory of IIS is that it was well-run, but that several of the faculty and staff didn't think much of the bureaucrats and politicians in Washington who were bent on closing it. They were not backward about saying so -- even to a newspaper reporter such as I.