Can We Attack Satan?

[EllenMaksoud]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

[3DOP]

He probably didn't mean anything along the lines of trying to vertly throw the devil out like the seven sons of Sceva, who left the house naked and bleeding after a confrontation (Acts 19). But when we do good we are "attacking Satan". I agree that if the missionary meant that we may confront Satan personally, that this would be unwise. Jude even explains that St. Micheal the Archangel accorded Satan "due respect":

When Michael the archangel, disputing with the devil, contended about the body of Moses, he durst not bring against him the judgment of railing speech, but said: The Lord command thee.

---Jude 9

I am sure this is the reason why Catholics ask St. Michael to intercede for us against the devil:

St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle

Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil

May God rebuke him we humbly pray

Do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host, by the power of God

Cast into hell Satan, and all the evil spirits

Who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls.

Edited June 22, 2013 by 3DOP

[Duncan]

I do it all the time under my alias, "Captain Midnight:Sword of Justice"!

[Robert F. Smith]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

It is appropriate in Christianity and Judaism to engage in exorcism, but only under very grave circumstances and only with the permission of those in leadership positions. The danger is very real.

Otherwise, Rory is absolutely correct: Love and kindness for our neighbor, virtuous thoughts, and living the Gospel in word and deed is the only effective way to "attack" Satan.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

I always connect that song with the Salvation Army, which does such wonderful work, and with George Bernard Shaw's play-movie "Major Barbara." Such an "army" plays off of St Paul's use of military language to discuss Gospel living.

[EllenMaksoud]

It is appropriate in Christianity and Judaism to engage in exorcism, but only under very grave circumstances and only with the permission of those in leadership positions. The danger is very real.

Otherwise, Rory is absolutely correct: Love and kindness for our neighbor, virtuous thoughts, and living the Gospel in word and deed is the only effective way to "attack" Satan.

I always connect that song with the Salvation Army, which does such wonderful work, and with George Bernard Shaw's play-movie "Major Barbara." Such an "army" plays off of St Paul's use of military language to discuss Gospel living.

It's perhaps just my thing, but I believe a righteous life in front of God IS the battle. I just think that the idea of Christians engaging in battle for God is the wrong approach. The sinner will be won by righteousness, not blood shed.

[SamIam]

It is appropriate in Christianity and Judaism to engage in exorcism, but only under very grave circumstances and only with the permission of those in leadership positions. The danger is very real.

Would you please expand on the "permission" aspect of your observations. An Exorcism to an LDS priesthood holder is not the involved and tedious ritual that I associate with Christian efforts - though I must admit that I am going to have to research Jewish exorcism as it is an area I have never thought to consider.

Having some reasonable experience in this venue I have never sought permission but as I think of it the majority have always followed lines of authority with but a few exceptions.

As far as addressing the OP. Ellen, I'm hoping that you misunderstood the intent of the individual speaking. One encounters Satan naturally as one progresses in understanding and knowledge and as one proves themselves a disturber of Satan's kingdom. According to the pattern that Brigham Young speaks too and Joseph Smith as well, our sincere efforts at righteousness require our testing and knowledge of Satan to be somewhat in tandem with our knowledge of the Savior. Moses example is one that seems consistant. If one is conversing with God, then it provides for an equal opportunity according to the laws of opposition that Satan is permitted greater access as well. Being spiritually prepared for such is paramount.

To actively seek him out to engage him would be fool hardy and ultimately would result in unnecessary risks being taken which could have unsavory consequences.

Edited June 22, 2013 by SamIam

[Storm Rider]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

This is an interesting topic and I only have my opinion to share. My good friend 3DOP has talked about the Archangel Michael contending with the evil one. I agree with others who have said that our battle with him is not direct, but it is most effectively engaged through overcoming temptations and holding tightly to the Iron Rod of God. I believe that those on the other side are actively fighting against him. I would also add that we would be overwhelmed at the effort they extend to wage this battle. I believe that we are surrounded by angels just as I believe we are attacked by those who fight against God. I think these are sacred things and too often some individuals get carried away with this topic; their imaginations run wild and the story becomes a bit twisted. Our Catholic friends find succor in asking for the intercession of saints and angels in their fight for righteousness. We LDS seek our Father in Heaven directly for the same things.

[volgadon]

It is appropriate in Christianity and Judaism to engage in exorcism, but only under very grave circumstances and only with the permission of those in leadership positions. The danger is very real.

In Islam, too. BTW, there was even an old-style dybbuk excorsism in Tel-Aviv and Jerusalem a couple of years ago.

[Calm]

George Bernard Shaw's play-movie "Major Barbara." Such an "army" plays off of St Paul's use of military language to discuss Gospel living.

Loved Major Barbara...and considering how much mocking of the Army I've read in stories, yet there seems to be little actually negative written about them so if they have that type of respect among their fellows it seems it would be a good group of people to stand beside.

[Lightbearer]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

I have never heard it phrased in that way. But we are in a battle, a continuation of the war fought in heaven. We are not the aggressors and it is not fought with bloodshed or use mortal weapons. We fight the fight through living and teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Paul said it best here:

"Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak." (New Testament | Ephesians 6:10-20)

We are fighting for the souls of mankind, including our own. We battle with our faith and overcome the world by resisting the temptations of the flesh and seek the Lord and do His will. We do not seek to destroy mens lives but to save. Satan has declared open war on us, the children of God. He seeks to decieve us and destroy us and make us miserable like unto himself. There are occassions when he directly attacks us and in those cases we can cast him out as Moses did:

"And it came to pass that when Moses had said these words, behold, Satan came tempting him, saying: Moses, son of man, worship me. And it came to pass that Moses looked upon Satan and said: Who art thou? For behold, I am a son of God, in the similitude of his Only Begotten; and where is thy glory, that I should worship thee? For behold, I could not look upon God, except his glory should come upon me, and I were transfigured before him. But I can look upon thee in the natural man. Is it not so, surely? Blessed be the name of my God, for his Spirit hath not altogether withdrawn from me, or else where is thy glory, for it is darkness unto me? And I can judge between thee and God; for God said unto me: Worship God, for him only shalt thou serve. Get thee hence, Satan; deceive me not; for God said unto me: Thou art after the similitude of mine Only Begotten. And he also gave me commandments when he called unto me out of the burning bush, saying: Call upon God in the name of mine Only Begotten, and worship me. And again Moses said: I will not cease to call upon God, I have other things to inquire of him: for his glory has been upon me, wherefore I can judge between him and thee. Depart hence, Satan. And now, when Moses had said these words, Satan cried with a loud voice, and ranted upon the earth, and commanded, saying: I am the Only Begotten, worship me. And it came to pass that Moses began to fear exceedingly; and as he began to fear, he saw the bitterness of hell. Nevertheless, calling upon God, he received strength, and he commanded, saying: Depart from me, Satan, for this one God only will I worship, which is the God of glory. And now Satan began to tremble, and the earth shook; and Moses received strength, and called upon God, saying: In the name of the Only Begotten, depart hence, Satan. And it came to pass that Satan cried with a loud voice, with weeping, and wailing, and gnashing of teeth; and he departed hence, even from the presence of Moses, that he beheld him not." (Pearl of Great Price | Moses 1:12-22)

As for direct contact with the powers of darkness we have been given specific instruction:

"Wherefore, it shall come to pass, that if you behold a spirit manifested that you cannot understand, and you receive not that spirit, ye shall ask of the Father in the name of Jesus; and if he give not unto you that spirit, then you may know that it is not of God. And it shall be given unto you, power over that spirit; and you shall proclaim against that spirit with a loud voice that it is not of God— Not with railing accusation, that ye be not overcome, neither with boasting nor rejoicing, lest you be seized therewith. He that receiveth of God, let him account it of God; and let him rejoice that he is accounted of God worthy to receive. And by giving heed and doing these things which ye have received, and which ye shall hereafter receive—and the kingdom is given you of the Father, and power to overcome all things which are not ordained of him— And behold, verily I say unto you, blessed are you who are now hearing these words of mine from the mouth of my servant, for your sins are forgiven you." (Doctrine and Covenants | Section 50:31-36)

We can when called upon cast out Satan, but it is not a game and it is not to be undertaken lightly or in an irreverent manner. You better have the Priesthood and also faith and personal righteousness.

[thesometimesaint]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

We attack and defeat Satan every time we don't do what he temps us to do.

[The Nehor]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

The song makes sense when the attacks in the song are metaphorical and on sin itself (which I believe is the intent). If not it comes across as a weird crusade-type song about killing for God.

[rpn]

If you read "The Screwtape Letters" by C.S. Lewis, you can easily see how to attack Satan. But Satan doesn't have a body. Mortals cannot pick him up or hit him or throw him. So if by attacking you mean physically, the answer is no.

[CV75]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

I agree, as he has already been defeated. Maybe he meant it in the sense of resisting temptation, but I still think attacking temptation is a sign of frustration and reliance upon the arm of flesh, and is not as effective as submitting to Christ. I think the hymn has to do with our joining Christ in what He has already done, in unity with other saints. The "battle" is in doing whatever it takes to join the happy throng, and helpd others do the same.

[EllenMaksoud]

The song makes sense when the attacks in the song are metaphorical and on sin itself (which I believe is the intent). If not it comes across as a weird crusade-type song about killing for God.

I've seen so much violence and anger, that now my belief system can not include it.

[EllenMaksoud]

I agree, as he has already been defeated. Maybe he meant it in the sense of resisting temptation, but I still think attacking temptation is a sign of frustration and reliance upon the arm of flesh, and is not as effective as submitting to Christ. I think the hymn has to do with our joining Christ in what He has already done, in unity with other saints. The "battle" is in doing whatever it takes to join the happy throng, and helpd others do the same.

I don't actually resist satan. But if I keep busy doing what I am supposed to do, then there is no time for satan.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

I was surprised to hear a missionary discuss attacking satan tonight. I know that satan attacked Job but with permission, and Jesus Christ withstood him. It seems that the idea of attacking satan is a bit presumptive to me.

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

Joseph taught that "Satan has no power except that which we give him". The BoM teaches that during the the thousand years Christ will be on earth, that Satan will be bound by "personal righteous", which means we can bind him now, the question is...what are we waiting for? Edited June 22, 2013 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[Robert F. Smith]

It's perhaps just my thing, but I believe a righteous life in front of God IS the battle. I just think that the idea of Christians engaging in battle for God is the wrong approach. The sinner will be won by righteousness, not blood shed.

Ellen,

The Salvation Army does not carry weapons or shed blood, but they do wear uniforms, have a rank structure, and preach Christ and do the works of Christ. The battle in the song "onward Chistian soldiers" is metaphorical, not an actual battle. I referred to St Paul's use of martial language in Ephesians 6, which is likewise only meant to be taken figuratively and very appropriate to the defeat of Satan:

Eph 6:11-17

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

[Robert F. Smith]

Loved Major Barbara...and considering how much mocking of the Army I've read in stories, yet there seems to be little actually negative written about them so if they have that type of respect among their fellows it seems it would be a good group of people to stand beside.

...............................

Thank you for that wonderful memory. Hadn't seen it in decades.

The Salvation Army has a seminary out in Palos Verdes, California, and I once went to their excellent research library there to do some work. They were very kind to me, and it brings back some pleasant memories.

[Cobalt-70]

And, no I do not like the song, "Onward Christian Soldiers).

I hate the song too. The metaphor of "soldiers for God" is a really bad one. We can thank that kind of thinking for the Crusades, countless other Christian wars, and even the Iraq war (in which our supposedly "Christian nation" was fighting the "Axis of Evil"). It has also been a justification for Christian violence against Jews, gays and lesbians, Muslims, and gynecologists. I wish we would get rid of all the violent metaphors in our theology. It is supposed to be a theology of peace. It's better to think in terms of making peace with God and fellow humans, than to think metaphorically in terms of torturing demons and infidels with our chainsaws of righteousness.

[Questing Beast]

I don't hate Onward Christian Soldiers, but I do find it annoying to sing. Not as annoying as the two hymns "to" Joseph Smith, however. Or the handful we sing endlessly, especially in priesthood meeting opening exercises. "Dear God, not again", is my usual response. But songs in church are off topic.

One of the first things to "die" when I realized that I no longer could uphold a dogmatic belief in religion was the belief in a literal adversary, as a man with a singular personality. The thought is clear to me: human beings arrive here with weaknesses attached, which spawn plenty of "devils" enough to cause a continuation of personal hell in enough people at the same time to foment disturbances all around. We don't need a Satan, we have enough trouble caused by ourselves.

Of course, the first thought that came with the realization that I don't believe in an actual devil was the warning in scripture about denying the existence of the devil, "I am not a devil for there is none", etc. And therefore my position taken was a perilous one according to the commentary above about all of this confrontation with the devil and his hosts being very real and not to be trifled with, etc. I answer it by saying that belief is a very strong modifier of "truth": you can literally create your own "truth" that convinces the brain, and thus the whole body, that powers of darkness exist according to the paradigm of those beliefs. And so when you see evidence to support those beliefs they deepen, grow stronger, and "truth" is firmed up in your own mind. Yet non believers cannot see it as anything more than make believe, and self-inflicted dogma that causes all manner of actions that otherwise would not happen, including, in the worst case scenarios, open warfare over "defending the faith" or "defeating/destroying the minions of the adversary", and other similar pursuits based on religious convictions.

I don't deny the existence of unseen presences all around us all the time, most of them benign and therefore undetected. A very few are angry, probably confused, fearful and destructive. Because the world is full of souls arriving and departing continually, it only makes sense to assume that some are in a temporary state of confusion. This world is far too evocative of strong emotional responses to the less savory events that take place here: some souls must become dislocated by the experiences they go through here.

Since eternity is a long time, and since "God" is connected to each soul forever, it logically follows that no powers exist outside of "God's", not even "Satan's", which originates with "God". In other words, when Satan does something it is not a separate power, outside of creation or existence, but part of "God" manifesting. To assume otherwise is to assume that parts of existence, evil in particular, have always existed separate from "God", making "God" less than the whole Cause of creation, and presumably sharing existence with powers not of "God's" making. This presents a paradigm that has no logical sense, as Existence In The First Place must be singular, the only One in fact. There cannot be multiple causes, or we have the fractured pantheons of dogmatic, even bastardized paganism (for most of them admitted to One God over all other gods manifesting in the world of men).

That was an overly lengthy way of saying that I don't believe there is a being to "attack" in the first place. We can only attack ourselves. When I do an injury to someone I do it to myself. When I do good to someone I do good to myself. When I press toward the "Light" I am drawing nearer to "God". When I deny "God" and excuse wickedness/evil, then I turn away from "God" and become my own devil and enter into my own hell. But "God" is there also, always, even if I don't believe it for eons....

Edited June 23, 2013 by Questing Beast

[CV75]

I don't actually resist satan. But if I keep busy doing what I am supposed to do, then there is no time for satan.

Good point; my mission president asked me in my last interview how I stayed out of trouble. I was surprised he even asked, but just said, "I was too busy."

I also think the hymn speaks of a defensive posture, not an offensive one, and the soldiers are outfitted with the armour of God.

[EllenMaksoud]

Ellen,

The Salvation Army does not carry weapons or shed blood, but they do wear uniforms, have a rank structure, and preach Christ and do the works of Christ. The battle in the song "onward Chistian soldiers" is metaphorical, not an actual battle. I referred to St Paul's use of martial language in Ephesians 6, which is likewise only meant to be taken figuratively and very appropriate to the defeat of Satan:

Eph 6:11-17

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Thank you for your kind words. I must reiterate that I have experienced so much violence that I find any reference, even metaphorical, to alluding to violence repulsive. And in truth, if we are going to be sons and daughters of Heavenly Father, and brothers and sisters of Jesus Christ, we must follow the example of Jesus Christ, eschewing violent ways, and all reference to it. Jesus Christ died bravely, and without violence.

Having said that, my use of my pistol has placed people on a different path. So, I did not say I could not do violence. I just do not choose to.

[Calm]

While in many ways Christ taught peace, he did not recommend avoiding violence altogether:

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36 And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/10.34?lang=eng#33

Using scriptures to justify violence is treading on dangerous ground though, imo.

[The Nehor]

Yes, but you first have to make him take corporeal form. This requires a pentagram to contain him, chants from the Necronomicon, and liberal amounts of burning sage. A small rodent must also be sacrificed and its blood spilt on each point. Then he will take corporeal form and you can probably land a couple of blows. Be careful not to knock him out of the pentagram or he will be free to wreak havoc in his conjured body for 6 days, 6 hours, and 6 minutes. Releasing the devil into the world in this manner is a sin and requires repentance to your Priesthood leader.