Does Lds Doctrine Contradict The Bible?

[Vance]

Right. The role of prophets as listed as a gift of the Spirit is different now.

And just where do we find where is says it is different now?

And the only way I would be contradicting myself if I was to claim that latter revelations that conflicted with older ones are to be preferred (within the new covenant).

You do just that when you accept the NT over the OT.

[3DOP]

I should leave this for 3DOP, but it would probably be more correct to say Catholics would reject revelation based on a (perceived or real) contradiction with apostolic tradition, which includes but is not limited to the Bible.

tagriffy hey. No worries! Pretty well answered. It IS essential to include Tradition.

To Ahab's contention that Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because we think it contradicts the Scripture that came before? Not necessarily so. I am very comfortable with saying that LDS doctrine does not contradict the 66 Book Bible of the Protestants. Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because it is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is apostate! I only believe the Scripture because the Catholic Church says I should. My faith in a 73 Book Bible only comes after my faith in the Church that Christ founded.

3DOP

[Vance]

False. This example is exactly what it means to "Bind on Earth, what has already been bound in Heaven." It is conflicting with the old covenant, not the new.

Non sequitur.

[tagriffy]

Yes, they put a lot of stock in their traditions thinking that their traditions are on par with scripture, but that's only because of the way they interpret the scriptures.

Again, I really should be leaving this to 3DOP or another Catholic. I will say that the relationship is much more complex than that. I'll grant that there is a degree of mutual reinforcement going on, but no less so than in the Mormon tradition. Remember all the way back in post #4 I asked since when was Mormonism a sola scriptura tradition? At least based on my reading of the how Mormonism treats Scripture, Mormons have no cause for complaint about how Catholics treat the Bible in their tradition.

[Vance]

I have a question for all you LDS scholars or those that feel they might have an answer. What is mistranslated in the bible specifically? I know the bible is definitely not perfect and many hands have written or translated it. But what in your opinions are the parts that we know are translated incorrectly, I've always wondered about this. Also, why don't we use the JST of the bible much, if at all?

The word "translate" encompasses more than just going from one language to another. It involves the whole transmission process. From the spiritual impression/inspirations received by the writers to your understanding it when you read it. Lots of room for MIStranslation in there.

[Ahab]

Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because it is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is apostate!

No, that's just how we can tell that the Catholic Church is apostate. Latter-day revelation is based on what the Lord has told us.

I only believe the Scripture because the Catholic Church says I should.

The faith you have in your Church should be redirected toward God. You're not supposed to worship a Church, even if it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. And I only believe the Scriptures because God has told me they are true, and how they are true.

My faith in a 73 Book Bible only comes after my faith in the Church that Christ founded.

When you have faith that something is true it should be because God has told you it is true.

You guys think too highly of your church, as if your church is God... and yes I know some of us think the same way of our Church when it should be God who we put our trust in.

Edited June 19, 2013 by Ahab

[tagriffy]

tagriffy hey. No worries! Pretty well answered. It IS essential to include Tradition.

To Ahab's contention that Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because we think it contradicts the Scripture that came before? Not necessarily so. I am very comfortable with saying that LDS doctrine does not contradict the 66 Book Bible of the Protestants. Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because it is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is apostate! I only believe the Scripture because the Catholic Church says I should. My faith in a 73 Book Bible only comes after my faith in the Church that Christ founded.

3DOP

Thanks for jumping in. I'm glad I got it more or less right. I like your thoughts here about believing Scripture and acceptance of a 73 book canon. It parallels my thoughts about the Standard Works very well.

Edited June 19, 2013 by tagriffy

[tagriffy]

No, that's just how we can tell that the Catholic Church is apostate. Latter-day revelation is based on what the Lord has told us.

You're really just kind of restating 3DOP's argument from the LDS view. It's not much of a difference to say "The Lord tells us the Catholic Church is apostate" and "Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because it is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is apostate!" Looking at it from the outside, it is a distinction without a difference.

The faith you have in your Church should be redirected toward God. You're not supposed to worship a Church, even if it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. And I only believe the Scriptures because God has told me it is true, and how it is true.

Who says it isn't? The Catholic doctrine of the Church is very much wrapped up in the Catholic doctrine of God. I think that, in a sense 3DOP is saying, "I choose the Catholic Church, and therefore I accept its Scripture." In essence, we do the same thing.

When you have faith that something is true it should be because God has told you it is true.

No doubt this is exactly what has happened for most Catholics.

You guys think too highly of your church, as if your church is God... and yes I know some of us think the same way of our Church when it should be God who we put our trust in.

If the church, a church, is believed to be God's instrument (something both Catholics and Latter-day Saints believe), then a high regard for the Church is not detrimental to trusting God. Indeed, it enhances it.

[Flyonthewall]

Your last statement is interesting. How did Jesus feel?

Jesus has nothing but loving compassion for us. That is how he feels.

Matthew 23 sums up how Jesus feels about them.

29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,

30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the ^aprophets.

31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which ^akilled the ^bprophets.

32 Fill ye up then the ^ameasure of your ^bfathers.

33 Ye serpents, ye ^ageneration of vipers, how can ye escape the ^bdamnation of hell?

34 ¶Wherefore, behold, I send unto you ^aprophets, and wise men, and ^bscribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

35 That upon you may come all the righteous ^ablood shed upon the earth, from the blood of ^brighteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the ^ctemple and the altar.

36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this ^ageneration.

37 O ^aJerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that ^bkillest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often ^cwould I have ^dgathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye ^ewould not!

38 Behold, your house is left unto you ^adesolate.

[Ahab]

You're really just kind of restating 3DOP's argument from the LDS view. It's not much of a difference to say "The Lord tells us the Catholic Church is apostate" and "Catholics reject Latter-day revelation because it is based on the premise that the Catholic Church is apostate!" Looking at it from the outside, it is a distinction without a difference.

There is a difference, though. Our Lord has actually told us that all other churches (not just the Catholic church) are apostate, and he has also explained why by connecting the apostasy to the false creeds of men and their denial of the power of godliness. Now look again at what he is saying. How we get to our beliefs makes a difference.

Who says it isn't? The Catholic doctrine of the Church is very much wrapped up in the Catholic doctrine of God. I think that, in a sense 3DOP is saying, "I choose the Catholic Church, and therefore I accept its Scripture." In essence, we do the same thing.

We're not supposed to put our faith in a Church, though. The Church is us, the members of it. Our faith should be in Jesus Christ, himself, rather than in those of us who put our trust in him.

No doubt this is exactly what has happened for most Catholics.

It doesn't sound like it based on the way they talk. Their allegiance is to their Church, rather than to the Lord, and we know that because we know that the Lord would want them to join his Church rather than some other church.

If the church, a church, is believed to be God's instrument (something both Catholics and Latter-day Saints believe), then a high regard for the Church is not detrimental to trusting God. Indeed, it enhances it.

If a person believes a church is God's instrument and it's not it is detrimental, though. We know which church is the Lord's church, and it's not their church, so they sooner they find that out the better.

Do not tell posters they worship their church. That will be considered an insult.

[tagriffy]

There is a difference, though. Our Lord has actually told us that all other churches (not just the Catholic church) are apostate, and he has also explained why by connecting the apostasy to the false creeds of men and their denial of the power of godliness. Now look again at what he is saying. How we get to our beliefs makes a difference.

Only for Latter-day Saints themselves. How Catholics get (or in this case stay) where they are is also very much dependent on how they get to their beliefs. If the Church is infallible, then of course they would have to reject the Latter-day Saint claim it is apostate. And don't forget that Mormonism tempers its teaching of apostacy with the acknowledgement that having the light of Christ, they do possess truth.

We're not supposed to put our faith in a Church, though. The Church is us, the members of it. Our faith should be in Jesus Christ, himself, rather than in those of us who put our trust in him.

It is not necessarily about putting faith in Christ as opposed to Church. It's more of a corrolary. "Having faith in a Church" means having faith that Christ is working in and through that Church. That is, to have faith "in a Church" is to have faith in Christ. There is no neat line of separation.

It doesn't sound like it based on the way they talk. Their allegiance is to their Church, rather than to the Lord, and we know that because we know that the Lord would want them to join his Church rather than some other church.

That's an easy accusation to make; anti-Mormons will often say the same of Latter-day Saints. Indeed, your statement could be interpreted to mean Church allegiance is what it is all about. And how do "we" know anything about what the Lord would want them to do? The Lord tells me he is perfectly happy to deal with people wherever they're at.

If a person believes a church is God's instrument and it's not it is detrimental, though. We know which church is the Lord's church, and it's not their church, so they sooner they find that out the better.

But now you are exiting the realm of faith and entering the realm of proof. And sorry to say, personal testimony just doesn't cut it when you enter that realm.

[Kenngo1969]

עץ ets, used in Ezk. is defined as such: wood, tree or stick

ספר cepher, used in Isa. 30:8 is defined as such: scroll or book

These terms do not appear to be used interchangably or as non-literal literary devices. The Ezekiel passage is null.

Contra that view, see here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=60&chapid=607

[3DOP]

No, that's just how we can tell that the Catholic Church is apostate. Latter-day revelation is based on what the Lord has told us.

The faith you have in your Church should be redirected toward God. You're not supposed to worship a Church, even if it is the true Church of Jesus Christ. And I only believe the Scriptures because God has told me they are true, and how they are true.

When you have faith that something is true it should be because God has told you it is true.

You guys think too highly of your church, as if your church is God... and yes I know some of us think the same way of our Church when it should be God who we put our trust in.

Don't be silly Ahab. That would all be good advice Ahab if only Catholics worshipped the Church. It just isn't a problem. There is no mistaking the infinite difference between God and the Church.

I vehemently deny that Catholics worship the Church. Your charge is absurd, insulting, and unwarranted by my remarks. When I said that we trust the Church over Scripture do you remember what reason I gave? I noted that the Church was established by Christ who is God. I believe the Scriptures were given into the custody of the Church. That means that we believe the Scriptures because the Church gave them to us and we believe the Church because God established it. The Church is above the Scripture. That was the point I was trying to make and it seems important for the purpose of this thread. There are multiple parties who act like "the Scriptures", whichever ones they mean, have authority quite apart from any other authority. I am proposing that as a critical error.

Rather than thinking Mormons might think this position means the true Church (whichever it is) should be worshipped, I thought you would agree. The Church precedes the Scriptures. Do we worship the Bible? No. Neither do we worship the Church. Everything in its own place, please. There is nothing in Catholic liturgy, traditions, or customs that even remotely suggests that the Church should be an object of worship. But it has a rightful place in our affections as that institution by which we believe God saves us through His teachings and sacramental graces. It is not idolatry to merely believe that in God's hierarchy, His Church is author and interpreter of the Scriptures. But we can still have a proper love and esteem for the Bible as well as the Church.

If Catholics love our church more than somebody else loves God, that isn't our problem.

3DOP

Edited June 20, 2013 by 3DOP

[Damien the Leper]

Contra that view, see here: http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/publications/books/?bookid=60&chapid=607

At best, for me, that appears to be an interpretive stretch. I'm not buying it.

[Storm Rider]

Don't be silly Ahab. That would all be good advice Ahab if only Catholics worshipped the Church. It just isn't a problem. There is no mistaking the infinite difference between God and the Church.

I vehemently deny that Catholics worship the Church. Your charge is absurd, insulting, and unwarranted by my remarks. When I said that we trust the Church over Scripture do you remember what reason I gave? I noted that the Church was established by Christ who is God. I believe the Scriptures were given into the custody of the Church. That means that we believe the Scriptures because the Church gave them to us and we believe the Church because God established it. The Church is above the Scripture. That was the point I was trying to make and it seems important for the purpose of this thread. There are multiple parties who act like "the Scriptures", whichever ones they mean, have authority quite apart from any other authority. I am proposing that as a critical error.

Rather than thinking Mormons might think this position means the true Church (whichever it is) should be worshipped, I thought you would agree. The Church precedes the Scriptures. Do we worship the Bible? No. Neither do we worship the Church. Everything in its own place, please. There is nothing in Catholic liturgy, traditions, or customs that even remotely suggests that the Church should be an object of worship. But it has a rightful place in our affections as that institution by which we believe God saves us through His teachings and sacramental graces. It is not idolatry to merely believe that in God's hierarchy, His Church is author and interpreter of the Scriptures. But we can still have a proper love and esteem for the Bible as well as the Church.

If Catholics love our church more than somebody else loves God, that isn't our problem.

3DOP

I have never met a Catholic who worships the Catholic Church. I think there is some confusion going on and too many assumptions. Catholics revere their Church because they see it as the church of Jesus Christ and represents the body of Christ on earth i.e. body as in body of believers. They see membership in it as the source of salvation because it has the authority to administrate the sacraments. It is a wide stretch to move from this point to a position that declares that Catholics loves their church more than God. There is no place for the church without God. These concepts are not foreign to LDS either; we feel the same things about our own church as Catholics do of theirs. Now, I have know members of both churches to have personal perspectives that were a bit strange, but these people do not speak for either organization.

[Ahab]

Don't be silly Ahab. That would all be good advice Ahab if only Catholics worshipped the Church. It just isn't a problem. There is no mistaking the infinite difference between God and the Church.

I vehemently deny that Catholics worship the Church. Your charge is absurd, insulting, and unwarranted by my remarks. When I said that we trust the Church over Scripture do you remember what reason I gave? I noted that the Church was established by Christ who is God. I believe the Scriptures were given into the custody of the Church. That means that we believe the Scriptures because the Church gave them to us and we believe the Church because God established it. The Church is above the Scripture. That was the point I was trying to make and it seems important for the purpose of this thread. There are multiple parties who act like "the Scriptures", whichever ones they mean, have authority quite apart from any other authority. I am proposing that as a critical error.

Rather than thinking Mormons might think this position means the true Church (whichever it is) should be worshipped, I thought you would agree. The Church precedes the Scriptures. Do we worship the Bible? No. Neither do we worship the Church. Everything in its own place, please. There is nothing in Catholic liturgy, traditions, or customs that even remotely suggests that the Church should be an object of worship. But it has a rightful place in our affections as that institution by which we believe God saves us through His teachings and sacramental graces. It is not idolatry to merely believe that in God's hierarchy, His Church is author and interpreter of the Scriptures. But we can still have a proper love and esteem for the Bible as well as the Church.

If Catholics love our church more than somebody else loves God, that isn't our problem.

3DOP

When you talk about a church do you realize you're talking about the people who are the members of it? The members of the church should not be considered to be above the scriptures. God comes first, including whatever God says, and what we call scripture is up for interpretation. Each of us needs to check with God to make sure we correctly understand what we're reading, including when to consider the writings of fallible men as scripture, being careful not to just accept the words of fallible men.

Maybe it's just the way you guys talk sometimes, but it seem to be that you pay a lot of homage to your Church as if it is right up there with God. I know it is only through true church of Jesus Christ that we can receive the saving ordinances of the gospel, but still the people who do those ordinances for us are not the ones we should worship. Worship is emulation, and we should trying to be like our Lord as he is like our Father in heaven.

[danielwoods]

Ok

I don't think you addressed my point at all. I have said nothing about "Bind on Earth, what has already been bound in Heaven." I am specifically talking about what Jesus said and later revelation given to Peter directly contradicts what Christ said.

Christ said to preach unto the Jews only. And Peter was shown

You can read the whole story in Act 10: 9-48

Some of the members of the Church even took issue with what Peter was doing. Acts 11: 2-3

No where did I read that it says that Christ said to preach unto the Jews only.

Second. The passage in Acts 10 describes the events that are exactly what Jesus was talking about, binding and loosing what is already bound or loosed in Heaven.

[danielwoods]

On what practical basis do you do this in principle? You've already said you accept latter revelatin that contradicts former revelation. All you've really done is drawn a line in the sand and said any further revelation must be judged against this line.

I have said that I accept latter revelation from Jesus, that contradicts the OT revelation. I haven't drawn a line in the sand, it is my goal to follow the line drawn by Jesus.

It's just poor example to use in your argument. The commandment says nothing about God's intent for the number of a kind of things a person may have. Do we infer that since house, slave, ox, and donkey are in the singular that God intends a person to have only one of them?

It may be a poor example, but it is but one of all the statements and actions of God indicating that his ideal was one man and one woman, from creation to Jesus' reference to creation.

[tagriffy]

When you talk about a church do you realize you're talking about the people who are the members of it? The members of the church should not be considered to be above the scriptures. God comes first, including whatever God says, and what we call scripture is up for interpretation. Each of us needs to check with God to make sure we correctly understand what we're reading, including when to consider the writings of fallible men as scripture, being careful not to just accept the words of fallible men.

Maybe it's just the way you guys talk sometimes, but it seem to be that you pay a lot of homage to your Church as if it is right up there with God. I know it is only through true church of Jesus Christ that we can receive the saving ordinances of the gospel, but still the people who do those ordinances for us are not the ones we should worship. Worship is emulation, and we should trying to be like our Lord as he is like our Father in heaven.

You're thinking like a Protestant, not like a Mormon, let alone a Catholic. No individual is above Scritptures, but Scripture But all things in the Church, including the definition of Scripture, is "done by common consent, by much prayer and faith" (D&C 26:2). Making adjustments for language and emphasis, this is basically the same thing Catholics say about the Bible. Yes, each individual has to check with God when considering whether the writing of a given person is Scripture. But in the end, it is the Church that makes the final decision.

[danielwoods]

Matthew 23 sums up how Jesus feels about them.

You stated, "The command for polygamy was not simply for polygamy's sake, there was purpose behind it, whether it be a test of faith or/and to raise up seed unto HIS church/nation.

How did Jesus feel about people that could not accept new revelation over prior revelation because it contradicted?"

And you think that Jesus would feel that these people who wouldn't accept polygamy (a practice God never commanded ever!), are to be equated with the Pharisees and those who killed the prophets? Wow.

[tagriffy]

I have said that I accept latter revelation from Jesus, that contradicts the OT revelation. I haven't drawn a line in the sand, it is my goal to follow the line drawn by Jesus.

Then there should be no problem. Latter-day Saints believe modern revelation comes from Jesus, even if it does contradict what has come before.

[tagriffy]

And you think that Jesus would feel that these people who wouldn't accept polygamy (a practice God never commanded ever!), are to be equated with the Pharisees and those who killed the prophets? Wow.

Ah, but God did command it at one time. See D&C 132.

[Calm]

Maybe it's just the way you guys talk sometimes, but it seem to be that you pay a lot of homage to your Church as if it is right up there with God.

Considering the number of nonLDS who think we worship Joseph Smith, I suspect it is probably the way each community talks...they understand what they mean, but outsiders interpret it as something stronger than is meant.

[Ahab]

You're thinking like a Protestant, not like a Mormon, let alone a Catholic. No individual is above Scritptures, but Scripture But all things in the Church, including the definition of Scripture, is "done by common consent, by much prayer and faith" (D&C 26:2). Making adjustments for language and emphasis, this is basically the same thing Catholics say about the Bible. Yes, each individual has to check with God when considering whether the writing of a given person is Scripture. But in the end, it is the Church that makes the final decision.

I have no problem thinking like a Protestant when the Protestant has the right idea, and I'm the one who said "The members of the church should not be considered to be above the scriptures" which seems to agree with what you're saying about how "No individual is above the Scriptures". (presuming you're talking about an individual in the Church).

In the end it will be God who will make the final decision, and his Church will consist of the people who will then agree with him.

[tagriffy]

Considering the number of nonLDS who think we worship Joseph Smith, I suspect it is probably the way each community talks...they understand what they mean, but outsiders interpret it as something stronger than is meant.

I should have thought of that, too. Thanks for catching it.