Vance Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 So, "the Lamb" is figurative language in that verse but "the marriage" is not???????? Well, at least you are consistently inconsistent.
Vance Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 All of these translations disagree with your (very much minority) rendition of this verse. Matthew 16:19 NIV New International VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."Matthew 16:19 ASVAmerican Standard VersionI will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19 BBEBible in Basic EnglishI will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever is fixed by you on earth will be fixed in heaven: and whatever you make free on earth will be made free in heaven. Matthew 16:19 CEBCommon English BibleI'll give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Anything you fasten on earth will be fastened in heaven. Anything you loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven."Matthew 16:19 RHEDouay-RheimsAnd I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Matthew 16:19 ESVEnglish Standard VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 GWGOD'S WORD TranslationI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you imprison, God will imprison. And whatever you set free, God will set free."Matthew 16:19 HNVHebrew Names VersionI will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you will bind on eretz will be bound in heaven; and whatever you will loose on eretz will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 CSBHolman Christian StandardI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 KJVKing James VersionAnd I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19 LEBLexham English BibleI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NASNew American Standard"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."Matthew 16:19 NIRVNew International Reader's VersionI will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. What you lock on earth will be locked in heaven. What you unlock on earth will be unlocked in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NKJVNew King James VersionAnd I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NLTNew Living TranslationAnd I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NRSNew Revised StandardI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 RSVRevised Standard VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 DBYThe Darby TranslationAnd I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens. Matthew 16:19 MSGThe Message"And that's not all. You will have complete and free access to God's kingdom, keys to open any and every door: no more barriers between heaven and earth, earth and heaven. A yes on earth is yes in heaven. A no on earth is no in heaven." Matthew 16:19 WBTThe Webster BibleAnd I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19 TMBThird Millennium BibleAnd I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matthew 16:19 TNIVToday's New International VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 TYNTyndaleAnd I wyll geve vnto the the keyes of the kyngdom of heven: and whatsoever thou byndest vpon erth shall be bounde in heven: and whatsoever thou lowsest on erthe shalbe lowsed in heven. Matthew 16:19 WNTWeymouth New TestamentI will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the Heavens; and whatever you bind on earth shall remain bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall remain loosed in Heaven." Matthew 16:19 WEBWorld English BibleI will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you will bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and whatever you will loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 WYCWycliffeAnd to thee I shall give the keys of the kingdom of heavens; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound also in heavens; and whatever thou shalt unbind on earth, shall be unbound also in heavens. Matthew 16:19 YLTYoung's Literal Translationand I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'
danielwoods Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 So, "the Lamb" is figurative language in that verse but "the marriage" is not???????? Well, at least you are consistently inconsistent.Marriage very well might be a figurative description of the event. However, it appears to be as close a description as we have in our vernacular. Notice, when Jesus tells a parable, he says, "The kingdom is like...." this or that. And in one example, he uses marriage as an example of what it is like. In this passage in revelation, it doesn't say, "this is like" this or that. It just says that the time has come for this event to take place. "The Lamb of God" is also a name or description.
danielwoods Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) All of these translations disagree with your (very much minority) rendition of this verse. Matthew 16:19 NIV New International VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."Matthew 16:19 ASVAmerican Standard VersionI will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19 BBEBible in Basic EnglishI will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever is fixed by you on earth will be fixed in heaven: and whatever you make free on earth will be made free in heaven. Matthew 16:19 CEBCommon English BibleI'll give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Anything you fasten on earth will be fastened in heaven. Anything you loosen on earth will be loosened in heaven."Matthew 16:19 RHEDouay-RheimsAnd I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. Matthew 16:19 ESVEnglish Standard VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 GWGOD'S WORD TranslationI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you imprison, God will imprison. And whatever you set free, God will set free."Matthew 16:19 HNVHebrew Names VersionI will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you will bind on eretz will be bound in heaven; and whatever you will loose on eretz will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 CSBHolman Christian StandardI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth is already bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth is already loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 KJVKing James VersionAnd I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19 LEBLexham English BibleI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you release on earth will be released in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NASNew American Standard"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NIRVNew International Reader's VersionI will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. What you lock on earth will be locked in heaven. What you unlock on earth will be unlocked in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NKJVNew King James VersionAnd I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NLTNew Living TranslationAnd I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. Whatever you lock on earth will be locked in heaven, and whatever you open on earth will be opened in heaven." Matthew 16:19 NRSNew Revised StandardI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 RSVRevised Standard VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 DBYThe Darby TranslationAnd I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be bound in the heavens; and whatsoever thou mayest loose on the earth shall be loosed in the heavens. Matthew 16:19 MSGThe Message"And that's not all. You will have complete and free access to God's kingdom, keys to open any and every door: no more barriers between heaven and earth, earth and heaven. A yes on earth is yes in heaven. A no on earth is no in heaven." Matthew 16:19 WBTThe Webster BibleAnd I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth, shall be loosed in heaven. Matthew 16:19 TMBThird Millennium BibleAnd I will give unto thee the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matthew 16:19 TNIVToday's New International VersionI will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 TYNTyndaleAnd I wyll geve vnto the the keyes of the kyngdom of heven: and whatsoever thou byndest vpon erth shall be bounde in heven: and whatsoever thou lowsest on erthe shalbe lowsed in heven. Matthew 16:19 WNTWeymouth New TestamentI will give you the keys of the Kingdom of the Heavens; and whatever you bind on earth shall remain bound in Heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall remain loosed in Heaven." Matthew 16:19 WEBWorld English BibleI will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, and whatever you will bind on earth will be bound in heaven; and whatever you will loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." Matthew 16:19 WYCWycliffeAnd to thee I shall give the keys of the kingdom of heavens; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth, shall be bound also in heavens; and whatever thou shalt unbind on earth, shall be unbound also in heavens. Matthew 16:19 YLTYoung's Literal Translationand I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'It's ok Vance. IF you want to believe the phrase is in the future tense, then just ignore it.Translators make interpretive decisions too. Initially the phrase doesn't make sense unless you understand the culture and concepts of binding and loosing.In essence, God never gives us the ability to dictate to him what is right or wrong or legal or illegal. The flow of authority is always from God.ETA: Oops. You missed these two Vance. Pull them out, they don't agree with your point.Matthew 16:19 NASNew American Standard"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven ; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven."Matthew 16:19 YLTYoung's Literal Translationand I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.' Edited July 1, 2013 by danielwoods
Vance Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Young's Literal Translationand I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'I guess you missed this too.
danielwoods Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) I guess you missed this too.Nope. Saw that.danielwoods, on 01 July 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:Young's Literal Translationand I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'"Shall be having been", is what tense? Edited July 1, 2013 by danielwoods
Vance Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Nope. Saw that.danielwoods, on 01 July 2013 - 11:32 AM, said:Young's Literal Translationand I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.'"Shall be having been", is what tense?Quite clearly, some time in the future (shall be), it will be in the past (have been). So, in the future it will be in the past. Just like your next birthday.
danielwoods Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 Quite clearly, some time in the future (shall be), it will be in the past (have been). So, in the future it will be in the past. Just like your next birthday.My next birthday is in the future. The Greek rendering is a simple future tense followed by a perfect participle passive. Now, if Jesus was simply saying what the common interpretation ("Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven") is (that even the Catholic Church and most Protestant Churches use), then a simple future tense would be followed by simple future passive. But it is not. Which clearly indicates that the common interpretation is wrong. Since a simple future tense if followed by a perfect participle passive, it indicates that "having been bound in Heaven" is in the completed past tense, meaning it is bound already. And what you (as a church) will bind in the future, must match what has already been bound in Heaven. The example of Peter in Acts 15 is a perfect example of this in action. Having the "keys" or access to Heaven or Jesus gave them the ability to bind on earth what had already been bound in Heaven.
teddyaware Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 (edited) My next birthday is in the future.The Greek rendering is a simple future tense followed by a perfect participle passive. Now, if Jesus was simply saying what the common interpretation ("Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven") is (that even the Catholic Church and most Protestant Churches use), then a simple future tense would be followed by simple future passive. But it is not. Which clearly indicates that the common interpretation is wrong.Since a simple future tense if followed by a perfect participle passive, it indicates that "having been bound in Heaven" is in the completed past tense, meaning it is bound already. And what you (as a church) will bind in the future, must match what has already been bound in Heaven.The example of Peter in Acts 15 is a perfect example of this in action. Having the "keys" or access to Heaven or Jesus gave them the ability to bind on earth what had already been bound in Heaven. Wouldn't it be just wonderful if there were living apostles and prophets on the earth today -- just as there were in the days of the New Testament Church -- so that revelation from God could settle doctrinal disputes like this one, once and for all? "11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. (Eph 4) Edited July 1, 2013 by teddyaware
Vance Posted July 1, 2013 Posted July 1, 2013 My next birthday is in the future.The Greek rendering is a simple future tense followed by a perfect participle passive. Now, if Jesus was simply saying what the common interpretation ("Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in Heaven") is (that even the Catholic Church and most Protestant Churches use), then a simple future tense would be followed by simple future passive. But it is not. Which clearly indicates that the common interpretation is wrong. And just WHY should the "perfect participle passive" take preeminence over the "future tense"??????? Since a simple future tense if followed by a perfect participle passive, it indicates that "having been bound in Heaven" is in the completed past tense, meaning it is bound already. And what you (as a church) will bind in the future, must match what has already been bound in Heaven. And just WHY should the "perfect participle passive" take preeminence over the "future tense"??????The example of Peter in Acts 15 is a perfect example of this in action. Having the "keys" or access to Heaven or Jesus gave them the ability to bind on earth what had already been bound in Heaven.It is also possible, that like other instances, something in the future was describe as having already been accomplished. Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Flyonthewall Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Given my short amount of time right now, I hope you don't mind if I copy and paste from a web site that explains the verse:"Let’s look at these two verses in other translations.The Amplified Bible translates Matthew 16:19 this way: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind (declare to be improper and unlawful) on earth must be what is already bound in heaven; and whatever you loose (declare lawful) on earth must be what is already loosed in heaven.” A footnote refers to “Charles B. Williams, [author of] The New Testament: A Translation [who said]: ‘The perfect passive participle, here referring to a state of having been already forbidden [or permitted].’” Matthew 18:18 is worded the same way as 16:19, and refers back to the same footnote.The Interlinear New Testament, edited by Jay P. Green Sr., quotes Matthew 16:19 in the English as: “And I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of Heaven. And whatever you bind on earth shall occur, having already been bound in Heaven. And whatever you may loose on the earth shall be, having been already loosed in Heaven.” In the interlinear column it states: “And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on the earth shall be, having been bound in the heavens, and whatever you loose on the earth shall be, having been loosed in the heavens.”When we understand the sense of the verse, and see what the context is, it becomes plain that Messiah is telling His disciples to judge righteous judgment (John 7:24), know God’s law and how to administer it, and to conduct the ekklesia with overflowing love of God and love of the brethren, rather than a bunch of legal do’s and don’ts or carnal ordinances."From: http://livingtheway.org/binding.htmlI hope that makes it clear where I'm coming from. The common usage of that passage ignores the fact that the phrase is in the "perfect passive", meaning it was already loosed or already decided.It does give me an insight as to where you are coming from.It makes me wonder how all the other scholars and translators who do not translate it the way you accept it, missed it.That being said, "Shall be" is something in the future, and "bound" is the past tense of bind, so it fits the description in your source. If you look at it the Apostles had no political authority, no legal authority, the only authority they had was what was given to them by God. So do you suppose their authority would be recognized in heaven first, then on earth? Certainly they had no earthly authority.Your source is correct in that Jesus was charging them to judge righteously, and not with a bunch of legal do's and don'ts as it was the Mosaic law that was a bunch of legal do's and don'ts. Not only did He charge them to judge in righteousness, but gave them the authority to do so, and their judgements will be upheld in heaven.My goal is to know the truth. If it doesn't bring comfort, I'd rather that, than a false sense of comfort built on sand.That is why the correct understanding of scripture is so important.I understand that when Christ used those words (vine, door, bread, water, a lamb etc.), they are illustrative. However, in the Revelation passage it states, "the marriage of the Lamb has come..." indicating a real marriage. Do Lambs marry? no. Does "The Lamb" have a specific reference to someone? Of course it does. So, who is he going to marry? It seems to me that it is describing a real event, where the real Christ, who is also almightly God, will marry the church. In essence the whole purpose of our existence, why he created us in the first place will be fulfilled.The whole book of Revelation is imagery, and uses the imagery already set out by Jesus when it comes to the marriage. But of course if the imagery is correct, heaven will come to an end, as marriages your earthly marriages do. 1
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Wouldn't it be just wonderful if there were living apostles and prophets on the earth today -- just as there were in the days of the New Testament Church -- so that revelation from God could settle doctrinal disputes like this one, once and for all? "11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive. (Eph 4) I don't think anyone was trying to deceive anyone else. I just think that it's been mistranslated for so long that it becomes assumed that it means what others say it means. I love finding little nuggets of truth like this though.
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 And just WHY should the "perfect participle passive" take preeminence over the "future tense"???????And just WHY should the "perfect participle passive" take preeminence over the "future tense"??????It is also possible, that like other instances, something in the future was describe as having already been accomplished. Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.You ask the same question twice. The wording of the phrase is what it is in Greek. The phrase "Having been bound in Heaven" is in the perfect participle passive. It must therefore be understood to be a completed action, before the church did any binding or loosing. And yes, the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, is an example of this. Or so it seems to me. In other words, the Church doesn't "Seal" or "bind" or "Loose" or do anything, that isn't already done in Heaven. God is in control, not the church.
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 It does give me an insight as to where you are coming from.It makes me wonder how all the other scholars and translators who do not translate it the way you accept it, missed it.That being said, "Shall be" is something in the future, and "bound" is the past tense of bind, so it fits the description in your source. If you look at it the Apostles had no political authority, no legal authority, the only authority they had was what was given to them by God. So do you suppose their authority would be recognized in heaven first, then on earth? Certainly they had no earthly authority.Your source is correct in that Jesus was charging them to judge righteously, and not with a bunch of legal do's and don'ts as it was the Mosaic law that was a bunch of legal do's and don'ts. Not only did He charge them to judge in righteousness, but gave them the authority to do so, and their judgements will be upheld in heaven.That is why the correct understanding of scripture is so important.The whole book of Revelation is imagery, and uses the imagery already set out by Jesus when it comes to the marriage. But of course if the imagery is correct, heaven will come to an end, as marriages your earthly marriages do.I agree with you about a correct understanding of scripture is so important. I have found other interesting nuances in the Greek text, so it doesn't surprise me too much. The whole book of Revelation isn't imagery. I say that because, everything can't be imagery and still make sense. For example the phrase, "The time has come for the marriage supper of the lamb." The words "Time has come for" couldn't be imagery because nothing else would make sense other wise. Now, I agree "marriage" could very well be an image of something that is so deeper and greater than we are able to understand. And the use of the word "marriage" is used because it is the strongest relationship we choose as a human being, so what it represents is the highest form of love we experience. However, that being said, whether or not it is imagery or not, it remains that it is the only marriage talked about in Heaven.
Flyonthewall Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I agree with you about a correct understanding of scripture is so important. I have found other interesting nuances in the Greek text, so it doesn't surprise me too much. The whole book of Revelation isn't imagery. I say that because, everything can't be imagery and still make sense. For example the phrase, "The time has come for the marriage supper of the lamb." The words "Time has come for" couldn't be imagery because nothing else would make sense other wise. Now, I agree "marriage" could very well be an image of something that is so deeper and greater than we are able to understand. And the use of the word "marriage" is used because it is the strongest relationship we choose as a human being, so what it represents is the highest form of love we experience. However, that being said, whether or not it is imagery or not, it remains that it is the only marriage talked about in Heaven.I missed the location of this marriage...where does it say this marriage will be in heaven?
teddyaware Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) I don't think anyone was trying to deceive anyone else. I just think that it's been mistranslated for so long that it becomes assumed that it means what others say it means. I love finding little nuggets of truth like this though.It's only natural that people interpret scripture in the light of their own understanding and personal experience of things religious. Nevertheless, on this particular point, it must be understood that Peter was a living Apostle of Jesus Christ, ordained under the hand of the Lord Himself. He was given power and authority by the Saviour Himself to be a prophet, to guide the Church by revelation from on high. The scriptures you interpret were written at a time when living revelators were upon the earth -- men of such great spiritual endowment that even the very letters they sent to others became scripture.The only way to truly understand these scriptures is to see and understand them in the same light the early Christians did. They did not know of any such church of God that could exist without living Apostles and Prophets at the helm. A church as you personally understand the church of Christ to be would be totally foreign to their understanding and experience. If one told these ancient saints that the day would come when the Church would no longer need living Apostles and Prophets at the head of the body of Christ, it would be incomprehensible to them and they would utterly reject such an idea. You have no choice but to interpret the Saviour's words to Peter on the sealing power in the way that you do because, according to your own understanding and experience, there are and never will be any no more living Prophets on the earth.You apparently accede to the idea that the Church of Jesus Christ can exist without living Apostles and Prophets who can write new scripture and interpret older scripture with prophetic, revelatory insight. There isn't even one person in the whole of the Bible during New Testament times -- or even Old Testament times, for that matter -- who understood that the true Church of God could exist without living Prophets. Each and every one of these people only knew of a Church with authorized and ordained living Prophets at the head of the Church. Your idea of a church without living prophets would have never even entered into their minds, unless they were apostates."19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord." (Eph 4) Edited July 3, 2013 by teddyaware
Tacenda Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) It's only natural that people interpret scripture in the light of their own understanding and personal experience of things religious. Nevertheless, on this particular point, it must be understood that Peter was a living Apostle of Jesus Christ, ordained under the hand of the Lord Himself. He was given power and authority by the Saviour Himself to be a prophet, to guide the Church by revelation from on high. The scriptures you interpret were written at a time when living revelators were upon the earth -- men of such great spiritual endowment that even the very letters they sent to others became scripture. The only way to truly understand these scriptures is to see and understand them in the same light the early Christians did. They did not know of any such church of God that could exist without living Apostles and Prophets at the helm. A church as you personally understand the church of Christ to be would be totally foreign to their understanding and experience. If one told these ancient saints that the day would come when the Church would no longer need living Apostles and Prophets at the head of the body of Christ, it would be incomprehensible to them and they would utterly reject such an idea. You have no choice but to interpret the Saviour's words to Peter on the sealing power in the way that you do because, according to your own understanding and experience, there are and never will be any no more living Prophets on the earth. You apparently accede to the idea that the Church of Jesus Christ can exist without living Apostles and Prophets who can write new scripture and interpret older scripture with prophetic, revelatory insight. There isn't even one person in the whole of the Bible during New Testament times -- or even Old Testament times, for that matter -- who understood that the true Church of God could exist without living Prophets. Each and every one of these people only knew of a Church with authorized and ordained living Prophets at the head of the Church. Your idea of a church without living prophets would have never even entered into their minds, unless they were apostates.""19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord." (Eph 4) I heard this POV from a EV once. In the scripture you listed, it said that there needed to be a "foundation" set down of prophets & apostles.Now here is what they said. "How often does someone build a foundation for their home (likening it to a church)? Answer, usually only once...". Apparently they say we don't need apostles and prophets once the foundation has been laid, just their words in the bible. Edited July 2, 2013 by Tacenda
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I missed the location of this marriage...where does it say this marriage will be in heaven?It only says in Heaven.
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 It's only natural that people interpret scripture in the light of their own understanding and personal experience of things religious. Nevertheless, on this particular point, it must be understood that Peter was a living Apostle of Jesus Christ, ordained under the hand of the Lord Himself. He was given power and authority by the Saviour Himself to be a prophet, to guide the Church by revelation from on high. The scriptures you interpret were written at a time when living revelators were upon the earth -- men of such great spiritual endowment that even the very letters they sent to others became scripture. The only way to truly understand these scriptures is to see and understand them in the same light the early Christians did. They did not know of any such church of God that could exist without living Apostles and Prophets at the helm. A church as you personally understand the church of Christ to be would be totally foreign to their understanding and experience. If one told these ancient saints that the day would come when the Church would no longer need living Apostles and Prophets at the head of the body of Christ, it would be incomprehensible to them and they would utterly reject such an idea. You have no choice but to interpret the Saviour's words to Peter on the sealing power in the way that you do because, according to your own understanding and experience, there are and never will be any no more living Prophets on the earth. You apparently accede to the idea that the Church of Jesus Christ can exist without living Apostles and Prophets who can write new scripture and interpret older scripture with prophetic, revelatory insight. There isn't even one person in the whole of the Bible during New Testament times -- or even Old Testament times, for that matter -- who understood that the true Church of God could exist without living Prophets. Each and every one of these people only knew of a Church with authorized and ordained living Prophets at the head of the Church. Your idea of a church without living prophets would have never even entered into their minds, unless they were apostates.""19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord." (Eph 4) Your reply doesn't answer deal with the passage directly. Rather raises other questions, and attempts to explain why I would interpret the passage the way I do. Fact remains that I would gladly entertain other interpretations or translations of this passage. If they were valid translations of the greek. For example. If I came to you and asked in Spanish, "Dude where's the nearest gas station?" And you pointed me to the nearest grocery store. I would be confused. And when I tell you that I was actually needing gas, you say, "You just don't believe groceries are necessary anymore do you?" I'd be like, "Huh? I don't get it." Ultimately, I don't care how it's translated, as long as it's correctly. As in, how the original writers and speakers intended it to be understood. Concerning my motivation to read it as I do, it certainly isn't because I don't believe that prophets or apostles are for today. You might be surprised to learn that I believe there are prophets and leaders of the church today. Now, I don't agree that the LDS church is *the* church because I don't think that a prophet or anyone who is leading people, will contradict what is already known (as I have said earlier in this thread). And certainly JS contradicted much of what we already know is truth. So, as far as my motivation goes. I find it interesting, that instead of dealing with the passage, you project a certain type of motivation on me. I think it's probably a foundational pillar in the LDS belief system. To understand this passage to mean that Peter was given the Keys which were then passed down to JS. Which gets us back to my original point, that the LDS method of interpretation rests on how JS interpreted it.
cdowis Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 Your reply doesn't answer deal with the passage directly. Rather raises other questions, and attempts to explain why I would interpret the passage the way I do.Fact remains that I would gladly entertain other interpretations or translations of this passage. If they were valid translations of the greek.For example. If I came to you and asked in Spanish, "Dude where's the nearest gas station?" And you pointed me to the nearest grocery store. I would be confused. And when I tell you that I was actually needing gas, you say, "You just don't believe groceries are necessary anymore do you?" I'd be like, "Huh? I don't get it."I assume you already understand that when the other person gets out the Greek lexicon and grammar reference book, when they start talking about translation issues, the discussion becomes pointless. You cannot get to the truth thru the lexicon.As you know, the historic Christian church replaced the prophets and revelators with theologians and scholars, and those are the only tools available to them.
teddyaware Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 (edited) I heard this POV from a EV once. In the scripture you listed, it said that there needed to be a "foundation" set down of prophets & apostles.Now here is what they said. "How often does someone build a foundation for their home (likening it to a church)? Answer, usually only once...".Apparently they say we don't need apostles and prophets once the foundation has been laid, just their words in the bible.The problem with the EV interpretation is that the scripture in question was written at a time when living Apostles and Prophets, who were ordained by the Lord Himself, were leading the church. The saints of that day would only have understood the scripture to mean that the Church of Christ had living Apostles and Prophets at the head, for their Church did, in fact, have living Prophets. Also, in the same epistle, Paul made it very clear that living Apostles and Prophets were supposed to remain at the helm of the Church in perpetuity. "11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." (Eph 4) Edited July 3, 2013 by teddyaware
Flyonthewall Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 It only says in Heaven.In verse 1 it says he heard voices from heaven. In verse 11 he states he saw a white horse when the heavens opened. But no where does it say the marriage is in heaven.You would not accept my understanding of the scriptures on eternal marriage because the words "eternal marriage" were not used. By the same standard, the location of the marriage being in heaven cannot be accepted because the scriptures do not say the marriage is in heaven.
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 I assume you already understand that when the other person gets out the Greek lexicon and grammar reference book, when they start talking about translation issues, the discussion becomes pointless. You cannot get to the truth thru the lexicon.As you know, the historic Christian church replaced the prophets and revelators with theologians and scholars, and those are the only tools available to them.Interesting point of view. Since the original hearers spoke Greek (among other languages), I'm certain they didn't have to get out the Greek Lexicon. Which in fact I didn't do. What I did do was point out the tense of the words. Future and past put together in one phrase. Interesting isn't it?If what you say is true, we'd have no translations at all, not even the KJV. Instead we'd all have to learn Greek and Hebrew (and Aramaic). So, clearly translating text, using those tools that allow that, are not the tools of evil deceivers. I guess if you believe that the discussion is over once the Lexicon comes out, that sort of protects the interpretation based on JS, because it can't be challenged.
Vance Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 The question isn't what those words and phrases meant to the Greeks. The question is what did those words and phrases mean to the Christians of the time or in the Christian context. The Greek Lexicon can be helpful sometimes but it can also mislead. 1
danielwoods Posted July 2, 2013 Posted July 2, 2013 In verse 1 it says he heard voices from heaven. In verse 11 he states he saw a white horse when the heavens opened. But no where does it say the marriage is in heaven.You would not accept my understanding of the scriptures on eternal marriage because the words "eternal marriage" were not used. By the same standard, the location of the marriage being in heaven cannot be accepted because the scriptures do not say the marriage is in heaven.Let's look at the context. Rev. 19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.So, from the context we can tell that the they are in Heaven. And in that context the marriage is to take place. You are correct, that the statement isn't made explicitly, however, your case isn't helped, because as I pointed out, this is the only marriage talked about, in Heaven.
Recommended Posts