Does Lds Doctrine Contradict The Bible?

[Calm]

But in our church we won't be together if we're not sealed?

Unless we are place in isolation booths if we are not sealed, I don't see how this could occur. It is IMO a simplified teaching of the lack of family bonds existing without a sealing. Since we do not understand the full extent of what it means to be an eternal family, we cannot know the full extent of the limitations of not being a family means, but for those who love their family members it seems to me we would desire to have the fullest possible eternal relationship with them and anything less would be disappointing no matter how glorious if we knew there was more possible.

In Primary, it may be seen as too complicated of a concept to understand and so is presented in a way that leaves out details that allow for misunderstandings. Hopefully as they get older, a fuller understanding corrects any inaccurate inferences, but there are likely some members who never develop their belief beyond that first impression.

[Calm]

The enticing part is that we can be together forever as husband and wife, as families, etc. There are indeed conditions, as the quotes point out, but the promise is open to all.

Glenn

I think the difference will be much like simply being in the presence of the Lord and being one with him as he is with his Father.

[danielwoods]

What I've written about is God's revealed will for his creation prior to the fall. When men and women are fully redeemed from the fall, God will reestablish his ideal: Man will live in the presence of God; they will live without sin, they will have glorious bodies of flesh and bone, the will live as husband and wife, they will live under the commandment to multiply. This is the redemption from the fall, when all that was lost will be restored as at first.

False. Remember there is no night, no moon, no sun, no need for sleep. It won't be a "restoration", Rather all things will have become new, the old order of things is gone.

[Calm]

What I've written about is God's revealed will for his creation prior to the fall. When men and women are fully redeemed from the fall, God will reestablish his ideal: Man will live in the presence of God; they will live without sin, they will have glorious bodies of flesh and bone, the will live as husband and wife, they will live under the commandment to multiply. This is the redemption from the fall, when all that was lost will be restored as at first.

And they will be one with the Son and the Father as the Son is one with the Father.

[teddyaware]

False. Remember there is no night, no moon, no sun, no need for sleep. It won't be a "restoration", Rather all things will have become new, the old order of things is gone.

God set up the whole of his creation mostly upon the matrix of male and female intelligences. And it was Paul himself who taught that "man is not without the woman and woman is not without the man in the Lord." This declaration of Paul's was made after Christ entered heaven, thus underscoring the fact that God's original design and plan still holds after the coming of Christ. By the way, to your thinking on this subject, do you believe we will be resurrected as men and women, or do you believe the world to come will be a unisex neuter world? Another question: Why do you think God continues to call Christ his "beloved Son" if families and family life will be totally deemphasized and have nothing to do with heavenly life? And a final question: Do you believe you will still have the same loving, romantic feelings toward your wife in heaven as you do here and now? Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

And they will be one with the Son and the Father as the Son is one with the Father.

Amen Cal. The husband and wife will be one and they both will be one with the Father and the Son.

[danielwoods]

God set up the whole of his creation mostly upon the matrix of male and female intelligences. And it was Paul himself who taught that "man is not without the woman and woman is not without the man in the Lord." This declaration of Paul's was made after Christ entered heaven, thus underscoring the fact that God's original design and plan still holds after the coming of Christ. By the way, to your thinking on this subject, do you believe we will be resurrected as men and women, or do you believe the world to come will be a unisex neuter world? Another question: Why do you think God continues to call Christ his "beloved Son" if families and family life will be totally deemphasized and have nothing to do with heavenly life? And a final question: Do you believe you will still have the same loving, romantic feelings toward your wife in heaven as you do here and now?

Concerning 1 Cor. 11, "³ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

"¹¹ Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

¹² For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God."

Your contention then is, " thus underscoring the fact that God's original design and plan still holds after the coming of Christ."

Yes, on Earth. No mention here of eternal marriage. Rather, the context is one of authority.

Your question about the resurrection, is it a unisex neuter world? I don't think so. But, at the same time I don't see that there's evidence that more babies will be made.

Why does God continue to call Christ is "beloved Son" - here in is where I think the whole reason he set up families the way he did was to help us understand the depth of his love. In other words, why set it up this way? Why have families and everything. Well, there's one thing that we learn beyond all others, when we have kids. It's how deep we feel our love is, toward both our spouses, and our children. And then by way of analogy, he's able to communicate that feeling to us, because of our experience.

This is one of the motivating factors for reading it as Joseph Smith does. It's our deepest unconditional love, that we experience on earth. It seems unfathomable that it wouldn't continue as it has. Yet, what is amazing is that it will be deeper in heaven.

Here's what I mean. You ask about romantic love. If you can handle it, we will be so enamored and invigorated by our connection and love of God and from him, that any thought of what we had here will be but an interesting memory.

Let's use energy as a way of measuring it. Let's say that our current love energy for our family (Romantic spouse, unconditional love for our kids, etc.) is at 100 watts. Now, we go through life thinking this is pretty great, we give and receive at around 100 watts, give or take a few watts. Then boom, the resurrection occurs and we encounter the source of all energy. An infinite source of all types of unconditional love all at once, for ever! We could put a number on it, say a Trillion times a Trillion watts (but it's infinite so that doesn't accurately describe it, but for comparison purposes), which overwhelms us so much that even thinking that the old way was so good would be sort of funny, and how short sighted of us.

So, all the while you are arguing for eternal marriages and families. I'm saying it is going to be infinitely deeper, emotional, and invigorating than you are describing, because we all will be one family connected to the source of all love and power and emotion. Will we be able to identify our spouses, and children? Of course. The cool thing is we won't have memory loss, and won't fight pain or suffering, rather we will remember everyone perfectly, and so meeting new people will be much easier.

[Tacenda]

Concerning 1 Cor. 11, "³ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

"¹¹ Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

¹² For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God."

Your contention then is, " thus underscoring the fact that God's original design and plan still holds after the coming of Christ."

Yes, on Earth. No mention here of eternal marriage. Rather, the context is one of authority.

Your question about the resurrection, is it a unisex neuter world? I don't think so. But, at the same time I don't see that there's evidence that more babies will be made.

Why does God continue to call Christ is "beloved Son" - here in is where I think the whole reason he set up families the way he did was to help us understand the depth of his love. In other words, why set it up this way? Why have families and everything. Well, there's one thing that we learn beyond all others, when we have kids. It's how deep we feel our love is, toward both our spouses, and our children. And then by way of analogy, he's able to communicate that feeling to us, because of our experience.

This is one of the motivating factors for reading it as Joseph Smith does. It's our deepest unconditional love, that we experience on earth. It seems unfathomable that it wouldn't continue as it has. Yet, what is amazing is that it will be deeper in heaven.

Here's what I mean. You ask about romantic love. If you can handle it, we will be so enamored and invigorated by our connection and love of God and from him, that any thought of what we had here will be but an interesting memory.

Let's use energy as a way of measuring it. Let's say that our current love energy for our family (Romantic spouse, unconditional love for our kids, etc.) is at 100 watts. Now, we go through life thinking this is pretty great, we give and receive at around 100 watts, give or take a few watts. Then boom, the resurrection occurs and we encounter the source of all energy. An infinite source of all types of unconditional love all at once, for ever! We could put a number on it, say a Trillion times a Trillion watts (but it's infinite so that doesn't accurately describe it, but for comparison purposes), which overwhelms us so much that even thinking that the old way was so good would be sort of funny, and how short sighted of us.

So, all the while you are arguing for eternal marriages and families. I'm saying it is going to be infinitely deeper, emotional, and invigorating than you are describing, because we all will be one family connected to the source of all love and power and emotion. Will we be able to identify our spouses, and children? Of course. The cool thing is we won't have memory loss, and won't fight pain or suffering, rather we will remember everyone perfectly, and so meeting new people will be much easier.

And what about worlds without end, how are they populated? With an Adam and Eve creation in each? Or is it only this earth? Are all those stars uninhabitable? This is where I get stuck sometimes. I look out into the night and imagine there are eons of worlds, stars. That men will become gods etc. OR not. Any answers for me, from a non LDS view?

[teddyaware]

Concerning 1 Cor. 11, "³ But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

"¹¹ Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.

¹² For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God."

Your contention then is, " thus underscoring the fact that God's original design and plan still holds after the coming of Christ."

Yes, on Earth. No mention here of eternal marriage. Rather, the context is one of authority.

Your question about the resurrection, is it a unisex neuter world? I don't think so. But, at the same time I don't see that there's evidence that more babies will be made.

Why does God continue to call Christ is "beloved Son" - here in is where I think the whole reason he set up families the way he did was to help us understand the depth of his love. In other words, why set it up this way? Why have families and everything. Well, there's one thing that we learn beyond all others, when we have kids. It's how deep we feel our love is, toward both our spouses, and our children. And then by way of analogy, he's able to communicate that feeling to us, because of our experience.

This is one of the motivating factors for reading it as Joseph Smith does. It's our deepest unconditional love, that we experience on earth. It seems unfathomable that it wouldn't continue as it has. Yet, what is amazing is that it will be deeper in heaven.

Here's what I mean. You ask about romantic love. If you can handle it, we will be so enamored and invigorated by our connection and love of God and from him, that any thought of what we had here will be but an interesting memory.

Let's use energy as a way of measuring it. Let's say that our current love energy for our family (Romantic spouse, unconditional love for our kids, etc.) is at 100 watts. Now, we go through life thinking this is pretty great, we give and receive at around 100 watts, give or take a few watts. Then boom, the resurrection occurs and we encounter the source of all energy. An infinite source of all types of unconditional love all at once, for ever! We could put a number on it, say a Trillion times a Trillion watts (but it's infinite so that doesn't accurately describe it, but for comparison purposes), which overwhelms us so much that even thinking that the old way was so good would be sort of funny, and how short sighted of us.

So, all the while you are arguing for eternal marriages and families. I'm saying it is going to be infinitely deeper, emotional, and invigorating than you are describing, because we all will be one family connected to the source of all love and power and emotion. Will we be able to identify our spouses, and children? Of course. The cool thing is we won't have memory loss, and won't fight pain or suffering, rather we will remember everyone perfectly, and so meeting new people will be much easier.

So there will no longer be any need or desire to love and express our love to our fellow man, most especially our wives and children, but we will just love God and all other relationships will go by the wayside? More questions: Do you believe this earth is the only instance in which God created humans and animals, and therefore this earth will be the first, last and only time he will ever create intelligent beings? If so, what will He and we be doing for the rest of eternity? One more question: Do you believe the heaven experience will be something like the Catholic's "beatific vision," where looking into the face of God is all that's needed to be supernally happy. Finally, if you don't mind, I'd be very interested to hear what your wife's response will be if you take her aside and solemnly tell her that the time will come a time when you will no longer be romantically in love her and that your romantic love will not last forever.

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[danielwoods]

And what about worlds without end, how are they populated? With an Adam and Eve creation in each? Or is it only this earth? Are all those stars uninhabitable? This is where I get stuck sometimes. I look out into the night and imagine there are eons of worlds, stars. That men will become gods etc. OR not. Any answers for me, from a non LDS view?

I'm a little unclear where the idea comes from, "worlds without end." I suspect it's a Joseph Smith thing.

The bible states that the "Heaven's declare his glory" Psalm 19:1 and they declare his righteousness (Psalm 97:6), and they are used for telling the times and the seasons. After the resurrection, a new heaven and new earth will be created, the old order of things will have passed away. What does this mean with reference to your question?

The bible doesn't say anything about populating planets or becoming populaters of planets, or worlds without ends. What it does indicate is that all life comes from God. Everything that has been made, was through him.

What about other planets? I honestly don't think there are other planets that are inhabited. I do think that aliens such as Angels exist, but that is quite different.

Remember, all creation was effected by our fall and a new creation is made after our resurrection. This indicates to me that there is but one planet with people on it.

There is but one God.

[danielwoods]

So there will no longer be any need or desire to love and express our love to our fellow man, most especially our wives and children, but we will just love God and all other relationships will go by the wayside? More questions: Do you believe this earth is the only instance in which God created humans and animals, and therefore this earth will be the first, last and only time he will ever create intelligent beings? If so, what will He and we be doing for the rest of eternity? One more question: Do you believe the heaven experience will be something like the Catholic's "beatific vision," where looking into the face of God is all that's needed to be supernally happy. Finally, if you don't mind, I'd be very interested to hear what your wife's response will be if you take her aside and solemnly tell her that the time will come a time when you will no longer be romantically in love her and that your romantic love will not last forever.

I must not have communicated my point, so sorry.

What I believe will happen, with reference to loving our fellow man, wives and children, is that the intensity of our love will increase a trillion fold (well more actually). The moment we are free from this life, which is effected by the net results of sin, we will be overwhelmed with the intensity and invigorated by God's love. When we encounter other people, we will love them like we've never loved before. All people. My description of this event and feelings probably don't capture all of it. I don't think we can even imagine how good it will be.

My wife and I both look forward to the day where we can worship and sing in God's presence together, as close friends, as we are today. Understanding we don't worship each other, or marriage or anything on Earth. We worship the source. The one and only God. For it was for that purpose we were made, to reconnect to him and commune with him. The fact is that we will do this with the whole family or body of believers.

What will we be doing for the rest of eternity? Well, I for one would like to explore. I honestly don't know though. I could speculate, but that's all it would be.

Will there be new humans made? It doesn't appear to be the case. I do see that animals will be there and I'm certain the diversity of the new situation will be greater than what we experience today.

[teddyaware]

I must not have communicated my point, so sorry.

What I believe will happen, with reference to loving our fellow man, wives and children, is that the intensity of our love will increase a trillion fold (well more actually). The moment we are free from this life, which is effected by the net results of sin, we will be overwhelmed with the intensity and invigorated by God's love. When we encounter other people, we will love them like we've never loved before. All people. My description of this event and feelings probably don't capture all of it. I don't think we can even imagine how good it will be.

My wife and I both look forward to the day where we can worship and sing in God's presence together, as close friends, as we are today. Understanding we don't worship each other, or marriage or anything on Earth. We worship the source. The one and only God. For it was for that purpose we were made, to reconnect to him and commune with him. The fact is that we will do this with the whole family or body of believers.

What will we be doing for the rest of eternity? Well, I for one would like to explore. I honestly don't know though. I could speculate, but that's all it would be.

Will there be new humans made? It doesn't appear to be the case. I do see that animals will be there and I'm certain the diversity of the new situation will be greater than what we experience today.

So again, now on this point, we are not as far apart as we may have first thought. You believe there is a great family in heaven, so do we; you believe men will continue to love their earthly wives in heaven, so do we; you believe we will continue to dwell with and love our fellow men in the hereafter, so do we; you believe our capacity to love will be infinite and eternal, so do we. We only differ in that we believe the afterlife will be more organized than you do. The main point where we depart is that we believe God's continuing creations will have no end -- we are not alone in the universe. This is not the first and it will not be the last of God's creations; His creations will go on forever. To me, it seems strange for someone to imagine that in all of endless eternity, this world is the only one that will ever be populated with humans and animals . What a waste of time and space! To each his own.

Edited July 8, 2013 by teddyaware

[Calm]

I'm a little unclear where the idea comes from, "worlds without end." I suspect it's a Joseph Smith thing.

Ephesians 3:21

King James Version (KJV)

21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

Applying that to the fact that Christ has created worlds upon worlds, one gets "worlds without end". So more of a King James thing with a little twist by JS for logically applying it to more than this world.

Also;

Isaiah 45:17

21st Century King James Version (KJ21)

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation; ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

I can't search the scriptures at lds.org right now so I can't give you the cites from the rest of the scriptures besides the Bible which I used Bible Gateway to find.....add-on: came up again so found the one usage. Edited July 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[Jude2]

I’ve got a list of questions I’d like you to answer for me.

*You want to see the word marriage, won’t accept it if the word isn’t in there, is that it?

Let’s start with Matt 22

“28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.”

*Their assumption was that after death she would be someone’s wife, why is that? Where did the idea come from?

As a Mormon I assume it was an ancient doctrine passed down to them from their fathers. But, because of apostasy the power to perform such unions was taken. Elijah was the last prophet who held the keys and when he was translated the power went with him.

*So what were these Jews talking about?

The "marriage of the lamb" is the only marriage mentioned in heaven.

Rev. 19:^{7 "}Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

⁸ And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."

By the way, the "Keys" were to allow Peter to know what was bound and loosed in Heaven already (a reference to what is legal or illegal). It has nothing to do with binding things in Heaven. It is a mistranslation.

We need to add;

“And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God”

Since you want to be so specific on wording this does not say any of us will be married to Christ but that we will be called as guest to the wedding. If we read further in Rev 21 it says the bride is the city Jerusalem, *Christ is marrying a city??

Paul explains what the symbolism of the city is in Eph 5, I’ll re-quote Barclay

“…Husbands you must love your wives, as Christ too loved the church and gave himself for it …. No one ever hated his own body. So far from that, he nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ too nourishes and cherishes the church because we are parts of his body. For this cause a man will leave father and mother, and will be inseparably joined to his wife, and they two will become so completely one that they will no longer be two persons, but one. There is here a very great symbol. As I see it, that saying is a symbol of the relationship of Christ and the Church…”

The bride is the church body as a whole, she has prepared herself to receive Christ through the righteousness of her members.

But Paul is also using our individual marriages as a symbol of the “inseparably” marriage of the Lamb to his Church.

*Will the marriage between Christ and his church come to an end??

Another symbolism;

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God…..Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” 1cor 11

*Upon death does the relationship between Christ and the man come to an end?

*Why is it that neither is the man without the woman and vice versa “in the Lord”, aren’t we saved individually?

From 1Peter 3

“Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”

*What does it mean to you to be an “heirs together”, how does that fit with “and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” Rom 8

When I read “the grace of life” the tree of life and eternal life come to my mind. We are heirs together of eternal life.

*What does it mean to you? Does our heir-ship come to and end?

In Ecc 3:14 we are give an eternal truth about God;

“ I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.”

Now let’s add

“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” Mat 19

*How does the phrase “till death do you part”, fit into what the Bible teaches?

*Is it that the different ministers are not acting in the name of God so it is not God who has joined the two in marriage?

Genesis 22:17

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore

There are more stars in the heavens than there are grains of sand upon this earth. In fact there is no end to the number of stars because God keeps manufacturing more of them.

*Why would God give this wild promise to Abraham if there was no marriage and families in the eternities?

I’m looking forward to your answers.

[Calm]

Here is a link to how it is defined in other translations besides KJV. It appears to be meant to convey the meaning of eternity. I wonder why the KJ translators decided on that phrasing, perhaps for the poetry....

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians%203:21&version=KJ21;NIV;YLT;NRSV;NET

[Jude2]

So again, now on this point, we are not as far apart as we may have first thought. You believe there is a great family in heaven, so do we; you believe men will continue to love their earthly wives in heaven, so do we; you believe we will continue to dwell with and love our fellow men in the hereafter, so do we; you believe our capacity to love will be infinite and eternal, so do we. We only differ in that we believe the afterlife will be more organized than you do. The main point where we depart is that we believe God's continuing creations will have no end -- we are not alone in the universe. This is not the first and it will not be the last of God's creations; His creations will go on forever. To me, it seems strange for someone to imagine that in all of endless eternity, this world is the only one that will ever be populated with humans and animals . What a waste of time and space! To each his own.

once again very good point!

[Calm]

Here is how "worlds without end" is used in nonbiblical scripture:

112 And they shall be <a href="http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/76.112?lang=eng#" id="footnote246" rel="http://www.lds.org/scriptures/footnote?lang=eng&volumeUri=dc-testament&bookUri=dc&chapterUri=76&noteID=112a">servants of the Most High; but where God and Christ dwell they cannot come, worlds without end.

again, the idea of a very long time. So still pretty much a King James idea with JS simply taking it a logical step further and referring to more than just this world....which would be a very, very long time.

[Calm]

It doesn't appear to be the case.

Why not? If God is the Creator, why would he stop being the Creator instead of endlessly creating? Edited July 8, 2013 by calmoriah

[danielwoods]

So again, now on this point, we are not as far apart as we may have first thought. You believe there is a great family in heaven, so do we; you believe men will continue to love their earthly wives in heaven, so do we; you believe we will continue to dwell with and love our fellow men in the hereafter, so do we; you believe our capacity to love will be infinite and eternal, so do we. We only differ in that we believe the afterlife will be more organized than you do. The main point where we depart is that we believe God's continuing creations will have no end -- we are not alone in the universe. This is not the first and it will not be the last of God's creations; His creations will go on forever. To me, it seems strange for someone to imagine that in all of endless eternity, this world is the only one that will ever be populated with humans and animals . What a waste of time and space! To each his own.

What is interesting (thinking about your comment of waste of time and space), is the limited range of perception that we have. For example, we only see a small amount of visible light, and see nothing of invisible, the same is true with hearing. Yet, we can detect (with instruments) things we can't see or hear with our natural eyes and ears. Now why would God create something that we can even perceive or hear?

I think it's entirely plausible to posit that he creates all things for his pleasure. Some things he shares with us (those we can see and hear), and many things he doesn't. For example, we can't hear a worm crawling underground, or hear a pulsar as it rotates, but God hears and sees all those things and much much more. Are they a waste of time and space? I'd hardly think so.

We may not be far apart, and that's fine.

[danielwoods]

Applying that to the fact that Christ has created worlds upon worlds, one gets "worlds without end". So more of a King James thing with a little twist by JS for logically applying it to more than this world.

Also;

I can't search the scriptures at lds.org right now so I can't give you the cites from the rest of the scriptures besides the Bible which I used Bible Gateway to find.....add-on: came up again so found the one usage.

Thanks!

[danielwoods]

Here is a link to how it is defined in other translations besides KJV. It appears to be meant to convey the meaning of eternity. I wonder why the KJ translators decided on that phrasing, perhaps for the poetry....

http://www.biblegate...IV;YLT;NRSV;NET

Yup, noticed that too. Thanks.

[Jude2]

And what about worlds without end, how are they populated? With an Adam and Eve creation in each? Or is it only this earth? Are all those stars uninhabitable? This is where I get stuck sometimes. I look out into the night and imagine there are eons of worlds, stars. That men will become gods etc. OR not. Any answers for me, from a non LDS view?

I don’t think we have the answers to those questions, some speculation but no clear answers.

My speculation is that each galaxy is organized by an eternal Father and Mother. As we each reach our exaltation we join the heavenly council. He will always be our God so any creating we do will be under his direction and authority. At some point the Messiah for each galaxy spins out his own new galaxy and the universe expands.

But that’s just speculation, when I get my white seer stone that’s the first thing I’m going to want to look up.

[teddyaware]

What is interesting (thinking about your comment of waste of time and space), is the limited range of perception that we have. For example, we only see a small amount of visible light, and see nothing of invisible, the same is true with hearing. Yet, we can detect (with instruments) things we can't see or hear with our natural eyes and ears. Now why would God create something that we can even perceive or hear?

I think it's entirely plausible to posit that he creates all things for his pleasure. Some things he shares with us (those we can see and hear), and many things he doesn't. For example, we can't hear a worm crawling underground, or hear a pulsar as it rotates, but God hears and sees all those things and much much more. Are they a waste of time and space? I'd hardly think so.

We may not be far apart, and that's fine.

So again we are not that far apart. You concede it's possible God's creations may continue beyond this world.

[danielwoods]

I’ve got a list of questions I’d like you to answer for me.

*You want to see the word marriage, won’t accept it if the word isn’t in there, is that it?

Let’s start with Matt 22

“28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.”

*Their assumption was that after death she would be someone’s wife, why is that? Where did the idea come from?

As a Mormon I assume it was an ancient doctrine passed down to them from their fathers. But, because of apostasy the power to perform such unions was taken. Elijah was the last prophet who held the keys and when he was translated the power went with him.

*So what were these Jews talking about?

Clearly these Jews did believe in eternal marriage, and they were rebuked. Not knowing the scriptures or the power of God. No marriage in Heaven. None are "given in marriage" as a state of being.

Second, if the Mosaic law ended at Death (as Romans 7 states), no amount of "keys" would have allowed marriage on this earth to go beyond death. So, the idea that Elijah held the keys and then the power went with him must be false.

We need to add;

“And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God”

Since you want to be so specific on wording this does not say any of us will be married to Christ but that we will be called as guest to the wedding. If we read further in Rev 21 it says the bride is the city Jerusalem, *Christ is marrying a city??

Paul explains what the symbolism of the city is in Eph 5, I’ll re-quote Barclay

“…Husbands you must love your wives, as Christ too loved the church and gave himself for it …. No one ever hated his own body. So far from that, he nourishes and cherishes it, as Christ too nourishes and cherishes the church because we are parts of his body. For this cause a man will leave father and mother, and will be inseparably joined to his wife, and they two will become so completely one that they will no longer be two persons, but one. There is here a very great symbol. As I see it, that saying is a symbol of the relationship of Christ and the Church…”

The bride is the church body as a whole, she has prepared herself to receive Christ through the righteousness of her members.

Seems you answered your own question.

But Paul is also using our individual marriages as a symbol of the “inseparably” marriage of the Lamb to his Church.

*Will the marriage between Christ and his church come to an end??

No. The marriage between men and women does (Rm. 7), however the marriage between Christ and the church does not.

Another symbolism;

“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God…..Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.” 1cor 11

*Upon death does the relationship between Christ and the man come to an end?

*Why is it that neither is the man without the woman and vice versa “in the Lord”, aren’t we saved individually?

No and yes. Paul uses the phrase, "in christ" or "In the lord" to indicate that he's talking about believers.

From 1Peter 3

“Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”

*What does it mean to you to be an “heirs together”, how does that fit with “and if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ” Rom 8

When I read “the grace of life” the tree of life and eternal life come to my mind. We are heirs together of eternal life.

*What does it mean to you? Does our heir-ship come to and end?

Joint heirs indicates that we are equal. In that culture women were viewed as less than man. The proclamation that we are equal "Joint heirs" is quite radical. We all are joint heirs as believers.

In Ecc 3:14 we are give an eternal truth about God;

“ I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.”

Now let’s add

“And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,

And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.” Mat 19

The idea that what God does "it shall be for ever..." has to be kept in context. Because, there will be a new Heaven and new earth. So obviously those aren't forever are they?

*How does the phrase “till death do you part”, fit into what the Bible teaches?

*Is it that the different ministers are not acting in the name of God so it is not God who has joined the two in marriage?

It simply means until death. When obviously there is a separation. It really doesn't reference either a finite marriage or eternal marriage.

Genesis 22:17

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore

There are more stars in the heavens than there are grains of sand upon this earth. In fact there is no end to the number of stars because God keeps manufacturing more of them.

*Why would God give this wild promise to Abraham if there was no marriage and families in the eternities?

I’m looking forward to your answers.

If you wish to base your argument on the idea that God is continuing to create new stars, then I suppose evidence is needed for this.

The phrase, "I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven..." is to indicate that his offspring will be so great as to be too difficult to number (same as the Sand of the sea shore). I don't see anything in there where it indicates God is still creating stars as an analogy to continually creating people in both cases there is a finite number (albeit a large one).

Edited July 8, 2013 by danielwoods

[danielwoods]

Why not? If God is the Creator, why would he stop being the Creator instead of endlessly creating?

I think this is in reference to creating humans specifically?

I can only go by what the Bible says, and to me it doesn't appear to be the case that endless worlds of people are created, in essence, endless Christ's as it were.

In my mind at least, this concept lessens Christ uniqueness and divinity. For example, if there are many Christs, then he isn't almighty God, because logically there can't be more than one infinite being.