danielwoods Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 So again we are not that far apart. You concede it's possible God's creations may continue beyond this world."beyond this world" means what exactly? This earth? sure. That's clear. This universe? Sure, the unseen world of Heaven certainly is beyond this universe. God will make all things new.
teddyaware Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 "beyond this world" means what exactly? This earth? sure. That's clear. This universe? Sure, the unseen world of Heaven certainly is beyond this universe.God will make all things new.Why do you think God created a world that needed to be made new? Why didn't He just make this world a perfect one in the first place?
Vance Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I’ve got a list of questions I’d like you to answer for me.*You want to see the word marriage, won’t accept it if the word isn’t in there, is that it?Let’s start with Matt 22“28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.”*Their assumption was that after death she would be someone’s wife, why is that? Where did the idea come from?I think Jesus had been teaching eternal marriage privately to his disciples and the word leaked out. And the Sadducees wanted to show it to be a silly thing. And, as usual, Jesus put them in their place.
teddyaware Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 I think Jesus had been teaching eternal marriage privately to his disciples and the word leaked out. And the Sadducees wanted to show it to be a silly thing. And, as usual, Jesus put them in their place.Astute observation. It really rings true.
danielwoods Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Why do you think God created a world that needed to be made new? Why didn't He just make this world a perfect one in the first place?Because this is where we reside. Why didn't he just make us perfect? Because we were given a free will.
Jude2 Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 If you wish to base your argument on the idea that God is continuing to create new stars, then I suppose evidence is needed for this.“Seek the Lord, and ye shall live …. Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion” Amos 5:8And this;“What science says about the Orion Nebula. According to modern astronomers, the Orion Nebula is an enormous cloud of gas and dust, one of many in our Milky Way galaxy. It lies roughly 1,300 light-years from Earth.At some 30 to 40 light-years in diameter, this great big nebulous cocoon is giving birth to perhaps a thousand stars….”http://earthsky.org/...in-orions-swordI find your answers rather weak.
Anakin7 Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Because this is where we reside. Why didn't he just make us perfect? Because we were given a free will. Don't tell that to James White !.In His Debt/GraceAnakin7
teddyaware Posted July 8, 2013 Posted July 8, 2013 Because this is where we reside. Why didn't he just make us perfect? Because we were given a free will.You're beginning to sound more and more like a Latter-day Saint. Good for you!
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 You're beginning to sound more and more like a Latter-day Saint. Good for you!That's truly funny. Thanks.
halconero Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Daniel. I want to understand where you're coming from, so I have a question for you.Do you believe that Adam and Eve were married? If not, why not? If so, where were they first married? In the Garden, or after the Fall?
Vance Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Because this is where we reside. Why didn't he just make us perfect? Because we were given a free will.If God created everything (including us) from nothing then he cannot give us "free will"!!!! The two are mutually exclusive. If He created from nothing, then EVERYTHING about us is what HE made us to be. There is no "free will" because the will he gave us is the will we have. No more, no less. So, IF "free will" exists at all, it is prime facie evidence (or proof if you will) that creation ex nihilo is a false doctrine.If creation ex nihilo is true, then the will we have is not free at all but the exact will he gave us. So, if you believe in creation ex nihilo, then why didn't God give us a perfect will? Edited July 9, 2013 by Vance
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Daniel. I want to understand where you're coming from, so I have a question for you.Do you believe that Adam and Eve were married? If not, why not? If so, where were they first married? In the Garden, or after the Fall?It isn't specifically recorded, but I think it's safe to say that when God presented Eve to him, and Adam replied with, "flesh of my flesh..." it was done. They were married before the fall.
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 If God created everything (including us) from nothing then he cannot give us "free will"!!!! The two are mutually exclusive. If He created from nothing, then EVERYTHING about us is what HE made us to be. There is no "free will" because the will he gave us is the will we have. No more, no less. So, IF "free will" exists at all, it is prime facie evidence (or proof if you will) that creation ex nihilo is a false doctrine.If creation ex nihilo is true, then the will we have is not free at all but the exact will he gave us. So, if you believe in creation ex nihilo, then why didn't God give us a perfect will?Creating a free agent, involves creating a freedom to choose. If God creates anything less than a free will, then he's determined what the outcome will be. The agents aren't free. Creation ex nihilo or not is really irrelevant. What you are saying is that God can't have created a truly free agent, if it's out of nothing in the beginning. I disagree. I think that either way, whether there was something in the beginning to "form" or not is irrelevant. He's able to create a free agent, because he's God. Further, to create anything less than a free agent, would be a waste of time. Essentially creating a bunch of robots. The value in creating a free agent, is the depth of love derived from that relationship, because it is chosen, and not forced.
Vance Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Creating a free agent, involves creating a freedom to choose. If God creates anything less than a free will, then he's determined what the outcome will be. The agents aren't free.Creation ex nihilo or not is really irrelevant. What you are saying is that God can't have created a truly free agent, if it's out of nothing in the beginning. I disagree.You can disagree all you want. But that just shows how illogical you thought process is. I think that either way, whether there was something in the beginning to "form" or not is irrelevant. He's able to create a free agent, because he's God. So, you are going with God can do inconsistent, mutually exclusive things. Again, this says more about your thought process than anything about God. Further, to create anything less than a free agent, would be a waste of time. Essentially creating a bunch of robots. The value in creating a free agent, is the depth of love derived from that relationship, because it is chosen, and not forced.Explain how God can create our will from nothing and make it, in any way, independent from what he made it to be. It is impossible, even for God. Another thing that is impossible for the Trinitarian God to do is create/reproduce, ex nihilo, another being/entity/God EXACTLY like himself. The Trinitarian God can NOT reproduce. So much for being all powerful.God.The "omnipotent" Trinitarian God is impotent. Edited July 9, 2013 by Vance
Tacenda Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 You can disagree all you want. But that just shows how illogical you thought process is. So, you are going with God can do inconsistent, mutually exclusive things. Again, this says more about your thought process than anything about God.Explain how God can create our will from nothing and make it, in any way, independent from what he made it to be. It is impossible, even for God. Another thing that is impossible for the Trinitarian God to do is create/reproduce, ex nihilo, another being/entity/God EXACTLY like himself. The Trinitarian God can NOT reproduce. So much for being all powerful.You're putting Him in a box? How would you even have a clue how great he is or how he cannot reproduce? He may reproduce in a way you've never even heard or comprehended before.
Vance Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) You're putting Him in a box? How would you even have a clue how great he is or how he cannot reproduce? He may reproduce in a way you've never even heard or comprehended before.It is impossible for Him to create ex nihilo a being that was from all eternity to all eternity like he, himself is. Therefore, he can NOT reproduce. The Trinitarian God can not be omnipotent because he is impotent. By the way, it is the Trinitarians that put him in that box. Not me. Edited July 9, 2013 by Vance
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 You're putting Him in a box? How would you even have a clue how great he is or how he cannot reproduce? He may reproduce in a way you've never even heard or comprehended before.Ta Da! We have a winner! The fact is that God doesn't claim to have created us *exactly* like he is in every single way. Rather, he has created us "in his image" and what image is that? That is the question. I would contend it's the image of his heart, his ability to love (agape), to think and analyze, to interact in relationship and community, in essence his image is the very core of our being, the part that is spirit, that is free to love or not. It is this very image that makes us unique and different from the animals, and gives meaning to our relationships.
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Explain how God can create our will from nothing and make it, in any way, independent from what he made it to be.Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."Genesis 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."Here we observe that God "said" or spoke and it happened (1:26) and then it states he simply "created man" (1:27) and then it says he "formed man of dust" (2:7), and "breathed" life into him and at that point, and not earlier than that, he became a "living being."Want more detail on how he did it? I guess you'll have to ask him. Edited July 9, 2013 by danielwoods
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 “Seek the Lord, and ye shall live …. Seek him that maketh the seven stars and Orion” Amos 5:8And this;“What science says about the Orion Nebula. According to modern astronomers, the Orion Nebula is an enormous cloud of gas and dust, one of many in our Milky Way galaxy. It lies roughly 1,300 light-years from Earth.At some 30 to 40 light-years in diameter, this great big nebulous cocoon is giving birth to perhaps a thousand stars….”http://earthsky.org/...in-orions-swordI find your answers rather weak.Your point was that God was continuing to create stars. Your link doesn't state that. Rather it appears that the laws of nature that God set forth are doing it.
Vance Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.”27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."Genesis 2:7 "Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being."Here we observe that God "said" or spoke and it happened (1:26) and then it states he simply "created man" (1:27) and then it says he "formed man of dust" (2:7), and "breathed" life into him and at that point, and not earlier than that, he became a "living being."Want more detail on how he did it? I guess you'll have to ask him.THAT is a big failure to answer the question. Of course, I didn't expect a real answer from you, because I knew you had no answer. You have no answer because it is impossible for God to create our will (ex nihilo) and have it in any way independent or free from what He made it to be. This is (just) one of the MANY fatal flaws of your theology.BTW, let's look at another nearby usage of the word image.Gen 5:3 ¶ And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:OBVIOUSLY your interpretation is incomplete. Adam and Eve are in the image of God, just as Seth is in the image of Adam. Edited July 9, 2013 by Vance
Vance Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Another fatal flaw in your theology is your Trinitarian "omnipotent" God is incapable of producing, ex nihilo, another being like himself. He is impotent, not omnipotent.
Vance Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 Your point was that God was continuing to create stars. Your link doesn't state that. Rather it appears that the laws of nature that God set forth are doing it.And that is, somehow, supposed to be independent from God? Your getting ridiculously silly now.
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 it is impossible for God to create our will (ex nihilo) and have it in any way independent or free from what He made it to be. And exactly what proves that "It is impossible" for God to create a free willed being? BTW, let's look at another nearby usage of the word image.Gen 5:3 ¶ And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:OBVIOUSLY your interpretation is incomplete. Adam and Eve are in the image of God, just as Seth is in the image of Adam.Quite obviously my interpretation of what involves an "image" is included in the idea presented in this passage as well. Your simply stating that I'm wrong doesn't make it so, but it seems to satisfy you.
danielwoods Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 And that is, somehow, supposed to be independent from God? Your getting ridiculously silly now.The argument was that God was continuing to create. This is not that. God said he created for six days, and rested. What is happening now is quite different than creation. What is happening now is predictable based on laws God created and set in motion.
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