Stone holm Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Neither God nor the Church prevents us from having own our thoughts, ideas, and ruminations. God doesn't make sock puppets. Really the only thing the Church requires of me is to confirm for myself what my leaders say is the truth. Much of what is said in General Conference is good, and wise, advice; and we would be well advised to follow it. That being said not everything that is said even in GC is doctrine. We have long had an established method of determining what is our doctrine. You'll find our doctrine in our Standard Works. To date "14 Fundamentals for Following the Prophet"' has not gone through that long established method. I don't anticipate it will be any time soon.There is always that tension between free agency and the need for sock puppets. In theory we have people with the guidance of the Holy Ghost and functioning brains, in practice it is difficult to herd cats which has this awkward tendency to happen when people actually start using their brains and calling on the Holy Ghost for guidance -- so its really a fine line, have you actually read some of the lyrics to some of the hymns? Try reading the lyrics to some of them and then ask yourself if they don't idealize sock puppets to a certain extent.
thesometimesaint Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 There is always that tension between free agency and the need for sock puppets. In theory we have people with the guidance of the Holy Ghost and functioning brains, in practice it is difficult to herd cats which has this awkward tendency to happen when people actually start using their brains and calling on the Holy Ghost for guidance -- so its really a fine line, have you actually read some of the lyrics to some of the hymns? Try reading the lyrics to some of them and then ask yourself if they don't idealize sock puppets to a certain extent.Agreed there is always that tension. But I would propose that it isn't God that wants sock puppets but that other chap.Yes I have read the lyrics. Some few make me cringe. But one of my favorite ones is The Spirit of God. Not even Christ was a sock puppet. Christ had his own ideas, thoughts, but he still did the will of the Father. "Thy will not my will be done".
Stone holm Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Agreed there is always that tension. But I would propose that it isn't God that wants sock puppets but that other chap.Yes I have read the lyrics. Some few make me cringe. But one of my favorite ones is The Spirit of God.[media=] Not even Christ was a sock puppet. Christ had his own ideas, thoughts, but he still did the will of the Father. "Thy will not my will be done".Actually, I think one of the motivating forces of the Atonement was Christ wanting to spend eternity with something other than sock puppets, and that was Heavenly Father's plan and basically the plan of every generation of the race of gods. Some people thrive on talking to their cats, but most at least some of the time yearn for communication with other humans. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Uhm, its not like he was being terribly secretive when he was doing it. I don't know if you experienced that period or not but he was being used as one of the top pubic speakers in all kinds of films and other productions for the Church. I don't say they knew, but I would say that somebody should have known.Yes, I was a teen when Elder Dunn was at the height of his popularity among that age group. I was already working at the Church News when his embellishments were exposed, and I well remember how shocked everyone was, not the least of all me.It's easy to say from the hindsight of 50 years that "somebody should have known," but if you trust someone as much as Latter-day Saints trust a General Authority, you're not apt to go looking for anything underhanded in what he says and does. Not back then, anyway. 2
Stone holm Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Yes, I was a teen when Elder Dunn was at the height of his popularity among that age group. I was already working at the Church News when his embellishments were exposed, and I well remember how shocked everyone was, not the least of all me.It's easy to say from the hindsight of 50 years that "somebody should have known," but if you trust someone as much as Latter-day Saints trust a General Authority, you're not apt to go looking for anything underhanded in what he says and does. Not back then, anyway.Not exactly sure what that says about us and our leadership.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Yes, I was a teen when Elder Dunn was at the height of his popularity among that age group. I was already working at the Church News when his embellishments were exposed, and I well remember how shocked everyone was, not the least of all me.It's easy to say from the hindsight of 50 years that "somebody should have known," but if you trust someone as much as Latter-day Saints trust a General Authority, you're not apt to go looking for anything underhanded in what he says and does. Not back then, anyway.Not me I recognized that stories with such descriptions, as a boy from Idaho with a shirt collar big enough for two and asking a man smoking a big cigar in line at the bank if he was a Mormon bishop, to be story telling attention grabbers. "yarning" is an old and venerable art. Edited June 12, 2013 by ERayR
Senator Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Yes, I was a teen when Elder Dunn was at the height of his popularity among that age group. I was already working at the Church News when his embellishments were exposed, and I well remember how shocked everyone was, not the least of all me.It's easy to say from the hindsight of 50 years that "somebody should have known," but if you trust someone as much as Latter-day Saints trust a General Authority, you're not apt to go looking for anything underhanded in what he says and does. Not back then, anyway. So there was probably a lot of stupid and deprived people at the time.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Not exactly sure what that says about us and our leadership.You think it reflects badly on us and our leadership to love and trust someone? How sad to be so cynical. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 So there was probably a lot of stupid and deprived people at the time.In what way were we "stupid and deprived"? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Not me I recognized that stories with such descriptions, as a boy from Idaho with a shirt collar big enough for two and asking a man smoking a big cigar in line at the bank if he was a Mormon bishop, to be story telling attention grabbers. "yarning" is an old and venerable art.The shirt collar thing is obvious hyperbole, the sort of thing not meant to be taken seriously, like "I've told you a thousand times, turn off the bathroom light."As for the story about the man in the line, I don't recall that being one of the ones that were debunked. It sounds plausible to me. Seems like a clever and shrewd approach, actually. Edited June 12, 2013 by Scott Lloyd
ERayR Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 The shirt collar thing is obvious hyperbole, the sort of thing not meant to be taken seriously, like "I've told you a thousand times, turn off the bathroom light."As for the story about the man in the line, I don't recall that being one of the ones that were debunked. It sounds plausible to me. Seems like a clever and shrewd approach, actually.
Ahab Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Actually, I think one of the motivating forces of the Atonement was Christ wanting to spend eternity with something other than sock puppets, and that was Heavenly Father's plan and basically the plan of every generation of the race of gods. Some people thrive on talking to their cats, but most at least some of the time yearn for communication with other humans.It's more a mix of your ideas and sometimesaint's ideas, because what our Father realy wants us all to be in agreement with him as well as everyone else who is also in agreement with him. Now mix that idea with what you mean when you use the term sock puppet.And, yeah, we're supposed to want to be in agreement with him, too, even if other people poke fun at the thoughts that are exactly the same as his thoughts while thinking those thoughts are wrong or off track when we're actually right and spot on.
Stone holm Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 It's more a mix of your ideas and sometimesaint's ideas, because what our Father realy wants us all to be in agreement with him as well as everyone else who is also in agreement with him. Now mix that idea with what you mean when you use the term sock puppet.And, yeah, we're supposed to want to be in agreement with him, too, even if other people poke fun at the thoughts that are exactly the same as his thoughts while thinking those thoughts are wrong or off track when we're actually right and spot on.You really think he wants to be surrounded with those novelty store stuffed animals that you push a button and they say back a programed thing? You really think He wants to create some kind of hell for himself? I mean can you imagine eternity surrounded by people that agree with everything you say all the time? century after century? That would be like being stuck on a cloud strumming a harp for eternity. 1
Ahab Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 You really think he wants to be surrounded with those novelty store stuffed animals that you push a button and they say back a programed thing?Is this where I'm supposed to say Yes, or No? I get mixed up sometimes, bro.. What do YOU think I should say? /sYou really think He wants to create some kind of hell for himself?Oh, that MUST be it! Thank you for helping me to see how right you are, and with so little effort. Thanks, bro. Now we're on track.I mean can you imagine eternity surrounded by people that agree with everything you say all the time? century after century? That would be like being stuck on a cloud strumming a harp for eternity.Better than being around people who always want to argue with you while always thinking you're wrong, I think.Different strokes for different strokes, I guess, though. And no need to fret about it, either, because even though there will never be a time when everyone will agree with everyone else on every issue there will always be some of us who will agree with our Father. 1
Senator Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 In what way were we "stupid and deprived"?Ask ERayR.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Ask ERayR.Stupid is not a word I use so don't attribute it to me. 2
Avatar4321 Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Not me I recognized that stories with such descriptions, as a boy from Idaho with a shirt collar big enough for two and asking a man smoking a big cigar in line at the bank if he was a Mormon bishop, to be story telling attention grabbers. "yarning" is an old and venerable art.Now Im curious what all this is about because this was before my time.
ERayR Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Now Im curious what all this is about because this was before my time.Now Im curious what all this is about because this was before my time.Paul Dunn was a GA and a really good speaker. He would illustrate his topic with first person stories of personal experiences that were fabricated. Eventually someone checked out some of his stories and took offense. As they say the rest is history.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 Ask ERayR.Why would ERayR be able to explain why you're calling me stupid and deprived?
boblloyd91 Posted June 12, 2013 Posted June 12, 2013 (edited) Hey, Bob, you forgot to toss a bomb (the more hyperbolic the better) before abandoning the thread. You feelin' all right, Bro? I'm a bit confused, what do you mean? Edited June 12, 2013 by boblloyd91
Stone holm Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 Now Im curious what all this is about because this was before my time.To expand. Paul H Dunn was a fantastic storyteller who could have you laughing one minute and crying the next as he made a point. He specialised in telling stories about his supposed pro baseball career and his supposed service in both Europe and the Pacific in WWIi. He normally featured himself prominently in the stories as a kind of hero or spiritual mentor or being rescued miraculously. All of which would have been fine had he been a novelist or professional storyteller, except these were told over the pulpit in what people thought, at least a lot of people thought, were true testimonials. It eventually came out that his pro baseball career was very, very limited as was his WWII Service and the stories were all pretty much made up yarns. He was used by the Church extensively in all kinds of youth programs and videos, his presence was huge...and then suddenly when someone did an investigation, he kind of fell into a quasi persona non gratis status and completely was dropped from sight. He went on a tour a few years ago out here in New England where people had known him personally when he was a Mission President or something. He drew a fair crowd but he seemed to have lost the charismatic effect he had back when I heard him as a new convert in the 70's. 2
Calm Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 Not exactly sure what that says about us and our leadership.That in general we are trustworthy...otherwise all of us would be more on our guard (people who can't be trusted themselves usually don't trust others as people tend to project their own motivations onto others).But the scriptures are to the point on this: Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. (Matt 10:16) 2
Calm Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 (edited) "yarning" is an old and venerable art.A lost art for part of our society though. I was never exposed to it as a child or youth save in books that I read so it seemed 'foreign' to me in real life at the time. I was not a fan of Brother Dunn, I have to admit the tall tale variety of storytelling doesn't appeal to me...I prefer stories that try to have a realistic flavour (even if in the genre of fantasy or sci fic) such as Asimov or go for pure absurdity....usually with a humorous twist (such as the Discworld books). Edited June 13, 2013 by calmoriah
Calm Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 You think it reflects badly on us and our leadership to love and trust someone? How sad to be so cynical.He did say he as uncertain...I agree there are good and bad things about being trusting and loving (Utahns being prone to being taken in by scammers) but I think the costs are way outweighed by the benefits because to be in a truly loving relationship, both must be able to trust on a deep and totally committed level and that type of relationship is worth more than all the riches of the world.
Stone holm Posted June 13, 2013 Posted June 13, 2013 A lost art for part of our society though. I was never exposed to it as a child or youth save in books that I read so it seemed 'foreign' to me in real life at the time.I had a coach in HS who was really good at yarning , but you really don't expect it from the pulpit.
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