Stone holm Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 Our hymns were written by fallible humans, too. Ergo, don't believe everything you read or sing from a book.Ah, but they are reviewed and approved by the GAs for doctrinal consistency... "More holiness give me...." etc.
thesometimesaint Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 Ah, but they are reviewed and approved by the GAs for doctrinal consistency... "More holiness give me...." etc.I think it is a mistake to assume that just because it is in our hymnal it somehow constitutes doctrine of the Church.http://www.loc.gov/folklife/LP/SongsofLDSandWest_opt.pdf 1
Ahab Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 Ah, but they are reviewed and approved by the GAs for doctrinal consistency... "More holiness give me...." etc.Things that are approved aren't necessarily perfect, and they don't need to be to be useful for instruction, reproof, etc.
Ahab Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I think it is a mistake to assume that just because it is in our hymnal it somehow constitutes doctrine of the Church.http://www.loc.gov/f...andWest_opt.pdfI think it is a mistake to assume that just because it is doctrine of the Church it is perfect, without any flaws whatsoever.
thesometimesaint Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I think it is a mistake to assume that just because it is doctrine of the Church it is perfect, without any flaws whatsoever.According to Joseph Smith the doctrines and prophecies are perfect. Admittedly our application of them is sometimes lacking.
Ahab Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 According to Joseph Smith the doctrines and prophecies are perfect. Admittedly our application of them is sometimes lacking.Newsflash: Joseph Smith wasn't perfect either, so not everything he said was perfect, either. Pretty much perfect, though, as long as you correctly understand what he understood from our Lord and was trying to convey through his own way of speaking.
thesometimesaint Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 Newsflash: Joseph Smith wasn't perfect either, so not everything he said was perfect, either. Pretty much perfect, though, as long as you correctly understand what he understood from our Lord and was trying to convey through his own way of speaking.He and I have never claimed he was, and I know for sure I'm not. That being said our fail safe is that no one man or small group of men determine what are the prophecies and doctrines of the Church. IE; To date neither the so called White Horse Prophecy, nor the King Follett Discourse are accepted by the Church.
Ahab Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 He and I have never claimed he was, and I know for sure I'm not. That being said our fail safe is that no one man or small group of men determine what are the prophecies and doctrines of the Church. IE; To date neither the so called White Horse Prophecy, nor the King Follett Discourse are accepted by the Church.The Church as a whole, I agree, because there are some members who do not accept those teachings as truth. But some do.
Calm Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 He and I have never claimed he was, and I know for sure I'm not. That being said our fail safe is that no one man or small group of men determine what are the prophecies and doctrines of the Church. IE; To date neither the so called White Horse Prophecy, nor the King Follett Discourse are accepted by the Church.The so called White Horse Prophecy is on a very different level than the KFD: http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/cobabe-whitehorse.pdfIn summary it cannot be said that the White Horse Prophe- cy is accepted by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as official or binding. It also is true that nothing in the so-called prophecy is quoted or used by authorities in the Church. It is true that there is language in the so-called prophecy that is found elsewhere in historically verifiable records.The prophecy that contains the concept of the Constitu- tion of the United States being challenged and then being saved by the Elders of the Church is generally accepted as a prophecy of Joseph Smith. There is evidence that the Prophet Joseph Smith repeated it more than once and was commonly understood and accepted. It has been quoted many times by leaders of the Church. It is nevertheless not part of the Church canon and is therefore not binding upon the membership of the Church.It is very clear that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day Saints does not believe that there will be a time when the government of the United States or the world will be assumed by the Church or its members. Rather it is theclear expectation that the Constitution and the government of the United States will survive the future predicted crisis because of the support that will be given by the Elders of the Church.
thesometimesaint Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 The so called White Horse Prophecy is on a very different level than the KFD: http://www.fairlds.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/cobabe-whitehorse.pdfI've always thought that there were parts of both that no thoughtful Saint would reject. But the operative word here is "parts". I don't believe that thoughtful Saints need accept the whole thing, or even selected parts of them. Depending on what those selected parts are. IE; That it will be the Elders of Zion that will save the Constitution or that God the Father has a Grandfather.
Ahab Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I've always thought that there were parts of both that no thoughtful Saint would reject. But the operative word here is "parts". I don't believe that thoughtful Saints need accept the whole thing, or even selected parts of them. Depending on what those selected parts are. IE; That it will be the Elders of Zion that will save the Constitution or that God the Father has a Grandfather.I can't think of a single part that I don't agree with. It is important to correctly understand what he meant, though.
thesometimesaint Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I can't think of a single part that I don't agree with. It is important to correctly understand what he meant, though.I'm not so sure we do correctly understand what he meant.
Stone holm Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I thought the White Horse Prophecy was recently rejected by the Church, did I miss a memo somewhere?
ERayR Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I've always thought that there were parts of both that no thoughtful Saint would reject. But the operative word here is "parts". I don't believe that thoughtful Saints need accept the whole thing, or even selected parts of them. Depending on what those selected parts are. IE; That it will be the Elders of Zion that will save the Constitution or that God the Father has a Grandfather.A prophecy is only as good as the one interpreting it.
tyler90az Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I tried to watch this "charismatic speaker" and I realized how he fooled everyone. I hope that floral arrangement in front of the stand was excommunicated. That is the most distracting thing I have ever seen in my life.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_X2wgT1CdSA
Calm Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 (edited) I thought the White Horse Prophecy was recently rejected by the Church, did I miss a memo somewhere?No, it has been. But there is a prophecy that is embedded within it that gets sometime mentioned about the Constitution hanging by a thread.http://www.mormonnew...ical-neutralityPeople confuse the two or assume because the one is referred to and generally accepted as a prophecy of Joseph's (see the link I posted above) that the one that contains it that goes into the White Horse imagery must be accepted as true as well, not so. Edited June 14, 2013 by calmoriah 1
Ahab Posted June 14, 2013 Posted June 14, 2013 I'm not so sure we do correctly understand what he meant.We can determine the "how" of what he said is true, though, and in that light I don't see anything I don't agree with.
Stone holm Posted June 15, 2013 Posted June 15, 2013 No, it has been. But there is a prophecy that is embedded within it that gets sometime mentioned about the Constitution hanging by a thread.http://www.mormonnew...ical-neutralityPeople confuse the two or assume because the one is referred to and generally accepted as a prophecy of Joseph's (see the link I posted above) that the one that contains it that goes into the White Horse imagery must be accepted as true as well, not so.Yeah you hear the Constitution thing mouthed a lot, usually by the same people who then turn around and support seceding from the USA. It is a wondrously non informative thing since either side of the political spectrum can make use of it.
thesometimesaint Posted June 15, 2013 Posted June 15, 2013 Yeah you hear the Constitution thing mouthed a lot, usually by the same people who then turn around and support seceding from the USA. It is a wondrously non informative thing since either side of the political spectrum can make use of it.Agreed.
Stone holm Posted June 15, 2013 Posted June 15, 2013 A prophecy is only as good as the one interpreting it.Or as bad.
Stone holm Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 Opposite sides of the same coin.Prophecies of that nature have a way of coming back and biting those who are too sure of their meaning.
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) To expand. Paul H Dunn was a fantastic storyteller who could have you laughing one minute and crying the next as he made a point. He specialised in telling stories about his supposed pro baseball career and his supposed service in both Europe and the Pacific in WWIi. He normally featured himself prominently in the stories as a kind of hero or spiritual mentor or being rescued miraculously. All of which would have been fine had he been a novelist or professional storyteller, except these were told over the pulpit in what people thought, at least a lot of people thought, were true testimonials. It eventually came out that his pro baseball career was very, very limited as was his WWII Service and the stories were all pretty much made up yarns. He was used by the Church extensively in all kinds of youth programs and videos, his presence was huge...and then suddenly when someone did an investigation, he kind of fell into a quasi persona non gratis status and completely was dropped from sight. He went on a tour a few years ago out here in New England where people had known him personally when he was a Mission President or something. He drew a fair crowd but he seemed to have lost the charismatic effect he had back when I heard him as a new convert in the 70's.Stone holm gets the story a bit wrong here (ironic, considering the subject matter, although I'm not accusing Stone holm of making anything up a la Elder Dunn; I think it more likely that Stone holm is a bit cloudy in his memory).If Elder Dunn was "dropped from sight," it was because he, like most General Authorities who have reached age 70, was relieved from active service and given emeritus status. Even then, Elder Dunn's heyday as a favorite speaker of youth in the Church was already rather far in the past.It was only after this that journalist Lynn Packer did his expose into Elder Dunn's claims and, as events unfolded, Elder Dunn, already on emeritus status, underwent Church discipline, the consequences of which included his being required to make a public confession that he had told inaccurate stories.It is quite common for General Authorities to fade from public prominence very soon after they receive emeritus status. As far as I know, the Church leaders were unaware of the problematic nature of Elder Dunn's accounts prior to the Packer report. Edited June 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) You leave out a lot of details that make the story seem trivial. He was a great motivational speaker and was making a lot of money selling books and cassette tapes of his stories that everyone (except ERayR) thought were true and illustrated how if we live rightiously we will be protected, expecially if we have been given a blessing of protection. Boyd Packer's nephew (I think his name was Steve Packer but I could be mistaken because I am going from memory) who was either a professor or employee of BYU discovered the lies. He initially went to some of the general authorities above Dunn with the truth and no action was taken. Somewhere between 6 months to a year later, when Dunn was still selling his books and tapes, Packer got fed up and gave his story to a newspaper in Arizona that published the story. Dunn publicly apologized and was put on emeritus status. His books and tapes were taken off the market, and Packer lost his job for "evil speaking of the Lords annointed" The biggest black eye the Church took over this incident IMHO was the credibility it lost by firing Packer. That was a big eye opener for me that I can't trust everything the Church puts out if they will discipline a person for TELLING THE TRUTH. I realized if I can't trust everything put out by the Church and its authorities, how do I know which things I can trust and which things I can't. The standard canned answer is that I have to rely on the Spirit but apparently the Spirit forgot to tell anyone except ERayR that Dunn's stories were fabrications so how do I know which other things that aren't true the Spirit will neglect to let us know about.The name wasn't Steve Packer, it was Lynn Packer.And Elder Dunn was already on emeritus status quite a while before the embellishments were exposed. But it makes a better story -- doesn't it? -- to say he was given emeritus status after the fabrications came to light.How can I trust what you're telling us when you can't get details right? (wink-wink, nudge-nudge) Edited June 17, 2013 by Scott Lloyd 1
Scott Lloyd Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Yeah, I suspect that is why the SEC has a special fraud unit in Salt Lake.Before you begin to indulge anew in one of your favorite activities, Utah-bashing, consider that affinity fraud is a fairly common phenomenon that is by no means limited to Mormons. Perhaps its regrettable presence in our faith group coupled with the overwhelming predominance of Mormonism in Utah contributes to what you note above.
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