Elder Mcconkie, Mormon Doctrine, And Pres. Mckay

[Stone holm]

He did say he as uncertain...

I agree there are good and bad things about being trusting and loving (Utahns being prone to being taken in by scammers) but I think the costs are way outweighed by the benefits because to be in a truly loving relationship, both must be able to trust on a deep and totally committed level and that type of relationship is worth more than all the riches of the world.

Yeah, I suspect that is why the SEC has a special fraud unit in Salt Lake.

[Calm]

what our Father realy wants us all to be in agreement with him

Depends, in my view, on what you mean by agreement.

I highly doubt that our Father cares that everyone has the same favourite colour or food or activity that he does. Rather the agreement is over what is truth and what brings happiness and peace and true eternal joy and life...and the reason he desires agreement in those areas is the proven track record...just as agreement on how to build a house with someone who has the experience of building strong, secure ones is necessary in order to produce strong, secure houses oneself. (Not disagreeing with you, just clarifying what I would mean at least if I used the phrase "wants us all to be in agreement with him....which I wouldn't, I would just stick to "being one with God" as I think it gets the point across without the baggage of imagining someone who is saying "I'm right, you know I'm right" all the time).

[Calm]

I had a coach in HS who was really good at yarning , but you really don't expect it from the pulpit.

Not unless it is first explained as a one...I have known a few people who do a great story, but they talk first about their tendency to dramatize to allow people to take it as a story with a moral rather than an accurate presentation.

[Calm]

Yeah, I suspect that is why the SEC has a special fraud unit in Salt Lake.

I would prefer to be conned every day of my life**** and still not lose the ability to totally trust someone like a child does rather than never be taken in again because I was too on guard. I don't have that level of trust anymore unfortunately, I miss it greatly. There is always a part holding me back, being protective and it limits being able to embrace the moment and the people I am with in a way I just don't like.

****have to be honest and put in the condition that this would be as long as I still was able to get enough to eat and live decently as well as my family and on occasion be able to help friends

Edited June 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

Is this where I'm supposed to say Yes, or No? I get mixed up sometimes, bro.. What do YOU think I should say? /s

Oh, that MUST be it! Thank you for helping me to see how right you are, and with so little effort. Thanks, bro. Now we're on track.

Better than being around people who always want to argue with you while always thinking you're wrong, I think.

Different strokes for different strokes, I guess, though. And no need to fret about it, either, because even though there will never be a time when everyone will agree with everyone else on every issue there will always be some of us who will agree with our Father.

The point is He wants IMNSHO people who can think for themselves. I agree He wants us to behave because you don't give loaded guns to toddlers and He plans to trust us with awesome knowledge and abilities. I found my teenagers who are now parents in their own right much more interesting as teenagers than as infants, I still fretted over giving them the car keys, but I didn't want them to become my opinion clones on everything.

[Stone holm]

I would prefer to be conned every day of my life**** and still not lose the ability to totally trust someone like a child does rather than never be taken in again because I was too on guard. I don't have that level of trust anymore unfortunately, I miss it greatly. There is always a part holding me back, being protective and it limits being able to embrace the moment and the people I am with in a way I just don't like.

****have to be honest and put in the condition that this would be as long as I still was able to get enough to eat and live decently as well as my family and on occasion be able to help friends

Well I have to agree with those sentiments, still we as members put a massive amount of trust in our GAs, even cynical old me, so we kind of expect that somebody is watching over the farm so to speak. I mean really yarn spinning on a constant basis over the pulpit? Somebody was asleep at the switch.

[Calm]

I mean really yarn spinning on a constant basis over the pulpit? Somebody was asleep at the switch.

I tend to agree, though perhaps not asleep, just enjoying the stories too much and maybe getting a bit lost in them like we do a good movie. Edited June 13, 2013 by calmoriah

[Stone holm]

I tend to agree, though perhaps not asleep, just enjoying the stories too much and maybe getting a bit lost in them like we do a good movie.

Yes, except those on the stand are supposed to be paying attention so that embarrassment doesn't fall on the Church.

[ERayR]

A lost art for part of our society though. I was never exposed to it as a child or youth save in books that I read so it seemed 'foreign' to me in real life at the time. I was not a fan of Brother Dunn, I have to admit the tall tale variety of storytelling doesn't appeal to me...I prefer stories that try to have a realistic flavour (even if in the genre of fantasy or sci fic) such as Asimov or go for pure absurdity....usually with a humorous twist (such as the Discworld books).

Oh you don't know what you are missing. My grand kids love stories about my dragons and monster pigs, When I went deer hunting, when I crossed the plains etc. When I start with a story the always ask if it is real or pretend. Great fun.

Edited June 13, 2013 by ERayR

[Calm]

Oh you don't know what you are missing. My grand kids love stories about my dragons and monster pigs, When I went deer hunting, when I crossed the plains etc. When I start with a story the always ask if it is real or pretend. Great fun.

I have to admit now that you put it that way, I did tell stories something like that, but it was with my children as the actors, not me. I am not that great at coming up with original stories ad lib (great on plot lines, rotten on dialogue)...I would adapt others' stories and place them in it with changing certain things to fit them better (such as chocolate pudding for my son instead of porridge in the Three Bears and My Son storyline).

[ERayR]

I have to admit now that you put it that way, I did tell stories something like that, but it was with my children as the actors, not me. I am not that great at coming up with original stories ad lib (great on plot lines, rotten on dialogue)...I would adapt others' stories and place them in it with changing certain things to fit them better (such as chocolate pudding for my son instead of porridge in the Three Bears and My Son storyline).

See you've got it and didn't even know it.

[blackstrap]

As my father was fond of saying , " that story was true ,but now I'm going to tell one that is REALLY true "

[Senator]

Why would ERayR be able to explain why you're calling me stupid and deprived?

I was just reiterating ERay's words. To be fair he used the word dense instead of stupid, the meanings of which, I'm sure to be informed, are not the same, and that the usage of which was done in a totally acceptable manner. It's all good.

[Senator]

duplicate

Edited June 13, 2013 by Senator

[Closet Doubter]

Paul Dunn was a GA and a really good speaker. He would illustrate his topic with first person stories of personal experiences that were fabricated. Eventually someone checked out some of his stories and took offense. As they say the rest is history.

You leave out a lot of details that make the story seem trivial. He was a great motivational speaker and was making a lot of money selling books and cassette tapes of his stories that everyone (except ERayR) thought were true and illustrated how if we live rightiously we will be protected, expecially if we have been given a blessing of protection. Boyd Packer's nephew (I think his name was Steve Packer but I could be mistaken because I am going from memory) who was either a professor or employee of BYU discovered the lies. He initially went to some of the general authorities above Dunn with the truth and no action was taken. Somewhere between 6 months to a year later, when Dunn was still selling his books and tapes, Packer got fed up and gave his story to a newspaper in Arizona that published the story. Dunn publicly apologized and was put on emeritus status. His books and tapes were taken off the market, and Packer lost his job for "evil speaking of the Lords annointed" The biggest black eye the Church took over this incident IMHO was the credibility it lost by firing Packer. That was a big eye opener for me that I can't trust everything the Church puts out if they will discipline a person for TELLING THE TRUTH. I realized if I can't trust everything put out by the Church and its authorities, how do I know which things I can trust and which things I can't. The standard canned answer is that I have to rely on the Spirit but apparently the Spirit forgot to tell anyone except ERayR that Dunn's stories were fabrications so how do I know which other things that aren't true the Spirit will neglect to let us know about.

[ERayR]

You leave out a lot of details that make the story seem trivial. He was a great motivational speaker and was making a lot of money selling books and cassette tapes of his stories that everyone (except ERayR) thought were true and illustrated how if we live rightiously we will be protected, expecially if we have been given a blessing of protection. Boyd Packer's nephew (I think his name was Steve Packer but I could be mistaken because I am going from memory) who was either a professor or employee of BYU discovered the lies. He initially went to some of the general authorities above Dunn with the truth and no action was taken. Somewhere between 6 months to a year later, when Dunn was still selling his books and tapes, Packer got fed up and gave his story to a newspaper in Arizona that published the story. Dunn publicly apologized and was put on emeritus status. His books and tapes were taken off the market, and Packer lost his job for "evil speaking of the Lords annointed" The biggest black eye the Church took over this incident IMHO was the credibility it lost by firing Packer. That was a big eye opener for me that I can't trust everything the Church puts out if they will discipline a person for TELLING THE TRUTH. I realized if I can't trust everything put out by the Church and its authorities, how do I know which things I can trust and which things I can't. The standard canned answer is that I have to rely on the Spirit but apparently the Spirit forgot to tell anyone except ERayR that Dunn's stories were fabrications so how do I know which other things that aren't true the Spirit will neglect to let us know about.

The whistle blower was Lynn Packer and he was a reporter. Packer was critical of the Church in more than just the Dunn affair.

I would thank you to not bear false witness against me. I said nothing about the spirit revealing anything to me about Dunn stories. The spirit didn't have to I recognize stories for illustration and hyperbole. I even see it in your post. Oh how am I to now be able to trust anything you post. Oh my.

As for leaving out details - the question was asked what it was all about. I simply gave the essence of the incident and figured if the questioner wanted details they could research it themselves.

As for how you are to know anything, well I haven't the slightest idea how you know anything.

[Ahab]

Depends, in my view, on what you mean by agreement.

I highly doubt that our Father cares that everyone has the same favourite colour or food or activity that he does. Rather the agreement is over what is truth and what brings happiness and peace and true eternal joy and life...and the reason he desires agreement in those areas is the proven track record...just as agreement on how to build a house with someone who has the experience of building strong, secure ones is necessary in order to produce strong, secure houses oneself. (Not disagreeing with you, just clarifying what I would mean at least if I used the phrase "wants us all to be in agreement with him....which I wouldn't, I would just stick to "being one with God" as I think it gets the point across without the baggage of imagining someone who is saying "I'm right, you know I'm right" all the time).

While you say you wouldn't use the same exact words I am using and have used to make my point you're still pretty much in agreement with me. So I'm right and you're right and you know i am right even though we use different words to express our ideas which are actually both the same idea just being expressed in different ways.

And as far as the favorite color or food or activity thing goes, it's more like he has more than only one favorite, or in other words, he really doesn't have a favorite to the exclusion of all others because he likes all good things equally but different. Just like if you were to ask any good parent which child is his/her favorite and he/she would say either that he/she doesn't have one to the exclusion of any other OR, in other words, that all of them are his/her favorites. God is more into cooperation and getting things to work out as well as possible for everyone rather than fostering competition as if only one can be the very best.

As you say, though, that doesn't mean what isn't true is true just because someone may think it is true, or that one Church isn't a better organization or more advanced in truth than another. While something may seem true to one when it isn't true it still won't be true in the actual reality of what really is true and thinking something is true when it isn't is never going to make it the truth.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Ahab

[Ahab]

The point is He wants IMNSHO people who can think for themselves.

Yes, and we do, but rather than just thinking whatever we want to think we should be trying to develop our knowledge of what is true.

I agree He wants us to behave because you don't give loaded guns to toddlers and He plans to trust us with awesome knowledge and abilities. I found my teenagers who are now parents in their own right much more interesting as teenagers than as infants, I still fretted over giving them the car keys, but I didn't want them to become my opinion clones on everything.

Why wouldn't you want them to have the same opinion you have on everything you think about WHEN YOU KNOW THE TRUTH?

In other words, why would you want them to be wrong? Sure, they don't have to agree with you. They can think whatever they want to think, but why would you want them to think something that isn't right or isn't good or isn't true? Huh? Why?

I know it would take them some time to arrive at the same understanding of things that you have once you have learned about all that is true, and along the way they would be wrong about some things until or unless they learned better, but why would you ever want them to stay stuck on some idea or opinion that isnt' good for them or anyone else who accepts it? I don't see the logic in wanting any of that.

[Ahab]

Well I have to agree with those sentiments, still we as members put a massive amount of trust in our GAs, even cynical old me, so we kind of expect that somebody is watching over the farm so to speak. I mean really yarn spinning on a constant basis over the pulpit? Somebody was asleep at the switch.

I don't think members put as much trust in "our GAs" as you seem to think we/they do.

I learned very soon after I became a member of the Church that there is nobody assigned to stand up immediately after someone says something that is not true to correct the mistake. I mean, someone might take it upon themselves to do that on occasion, but as a standard rule we generally don't have anyone assigned to do that. We're each responsible for what we say and what we do, including whether or not we can patiently endure it with hope and faith when someone is wrong, hoping they will eventually learn what is right and give up that false notion while having faith that God can help us all to learn what is true.

To correct someone's mistake every time they do something wrong would not be a good thing to do, anyway. People can develop an inferiority complex like that, and God's goal is to try to build us up rather than try to tear us down.

[Calm]

Why wouldn't you want them to have the same opinion you have on everything you think about WHEN YOU KNOW THE TRUTH?

There are many things in life that are not about the TRUTH, but simply about a preference for doing something a certain way. There is nothing wrong with 'reinventing the wheel' in my view, not every wheel serves the same purpose for one thing.

I don't see how one can claim there is a perfect car or perfect food or perfect way of dress that everyone should agree on driving, eating or wearing....thus we can have very different opinions about what are nonsalvational matters.

[Ahab]

There are many things in life that are not about the TRUTH, but simply about a preference for doing something a certain way. There is nothing wrong with 'reinventing the wheel' in my view, not every wheel serves the same purpose for one thing.

I was talking about matters of truth, though, so try considering my remarks in that context. If you want to talk more about the difference between good and bad, well, that is a slightly different issue. I agree that as far as preferences go there are often many "good" choices, but there are also some "bad" choices which we should try to avoid, too.

I don't see how one can claim there is a perfect car or perfect food or perfect way of dress that everyone should agree on driving, eating or wearing....thus we can have very different opinions about what are nonsalvational matters.

A perfect car is one that doesn't pollute the environment and can generate its own fuel while providing enough capacity to carry anything you would ever want to carry in a car. When you find one of those would you mind getting one for me, too?

Perfect food: it's gotta be something that tastes best bar-b-qued. That much is certain. (j/k, FYI)

Perfect way of dress: Instantaneous and the forms/fabric/colors change to what is appropriate for activities and seasons.

There is no good reason to have any differing opinions, because all of the good opinions can be summarized into one, and there is nothing that has nothing to do with either termporal or eternal salvation.

Edited June 13, 2013 by Ahab

[Stone holm]

I don't think members put as much trust in "our GAs" as you seem to think we/they do.

I learned very soon after I became a member of the Church that there is nobody assigned to stand up immediately after someone says something that is not true to correct the mistake. I mean, someone might take it upon themselves to do that on occasion, but as a standard rule we generally don't have anyone assigned to do that. We're each responsible for what we say and what we do, including whether or not we can patiently endure it with hope and faith when someone is wrong, hoping they will eventually learn what is right and give up that false notion while having faith that God can help us all to learn what is true.

To correct someone's mistake every time they do something wrong would not be a good thing to do, anyway. People can develop an inferiority complex like that, and God's goal is to try to build us up rather than try to tear us down.

I would have to differ with you. We put massive trust in our GAs. That is something that tends to put a lot of people off about us. We may not necessarily put much trust in our Bishop or Stake President, although I have always found Bishops to be pretty good at their callings, but most Mormons out here, even cynical ones like myself, tend to put an enormous amount of faith in the idea that our GAs won't lead us astray.

[Ahab]

I would have to differ with you. We put massive trust in our GAs. That is something that tends to put a lot of people off about us. We may not necessarily put much trust in our Bishop or Stake President, although I have always found Bishops to be pretty good at their callings, but most Mormons out here, even cynical ones like myself, tend to put an enormous amount of faith in the idea that our GAs won't lead us astray.

I know they won't lead me astray because I wouldn't follow them if they tried to. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, and while he has authorized other people, his servants, to administer in certain offices within his Church he has not entrusted our salvation to them. He is in charge, and if there is ever any doubt about who to follow, just follow him as he guides you through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Your actually not supposed to put so much trust in the various other men and women within the Church. Brigham talked about how he feared others would follow him as if he were God. You need to know who you should follow, and his name is Jesus Christ.

[Stone holm]

I know they won't lead me astray because I wouldn't follow them if they tried to. I'm a disciple of Jesus Christ, and while he has authorized other people, his servants, to administer in certain offices within his Church he has not entrusted our salvation to them. He is in charge, and if there is ever any doubt about who to follow, just follow him as he guides you through the power of the Holy Ghost.

Your actually not supposed to put so much trust in the various other men and women within the Church. Brigham talked about how he feared others would follow him as if he were God. You need to know who you should follow, and his name is Jesus Christ.

How does the old saying go, "Catholic doctrine is that the Pope is infallilble, but Catholics don't believe it, Mormon doctrine is the Prophet is fallible, but Mormons don't believe it." I understand what you are saying, but if you listen to some of the talks and read the lyrics of some of the hymns...well, no wonder we don't believe he is fallible.

[Ahab]

How does the old saying go, "Catholic doctrine is that the Pope is infallilble, but Catholics don't believe it, Mormon doctrine is the Prophet is fallible, but Mormons don't believe it." I understand what you are saying, but if you listen to some of the talks and read the lyrics of some of the hymns...well, no wonder we don't believe he is fallible.

Our hymns were written by fallible humans, too. Ergo, don't believe everything you read or sing from a book.