Elder Mcconkie, Mormon Doctrine, And Pres. Mckay

[Calm]

Perhaps there is something to the effect that over sanitized history is having on the ability of members to face reality.

That is certainly possible. It is also possible that the type of person who is uncomfortable with ambiguity just focuses on the sanitized history as an easier way to approach things.

I personally think it works at least both ways and probably is a combination for many.

[Stone holm]

That is certainly possible. It is also possible that the type of person who is uncomfortable with ambiguity just focuses on the sanitized history as an easier way to approach things.

I personally think it works at least both ways and probably is a combination for many.

You mean the black and white mentality?

[Calm]

You mean the black and white mentality?

Pretty much, though I prefer when I think about it to simply identify the issue as ambiguity rather than use the label for such.

[Stone holm]

Pretty much, though I prefer when I think about it to simply identify the issue as ambiguity rather than use the label for such.

Yeah, am not much with mincing words anymore in my old age I tend to get grumpy with the modern day Pharisees, and tend to think there just might be some wisdom in talking about the relative merits and demerits of say methadone clinics so we can come up with alternative programs to implement as opposed to say discussing the merits of wearing white shirts as opposed to blue ones to Church.

[Calm]

there just might be some wisdom in talking about the relative merits and demerits of say methadone clinics

Is that one of the things which you brought up in the HP class you are referring to in the other thread? If so, fun class (and valuable in helping determine where one's donations and other resources could go, which if I understand the purpose of the quorum is appropriate conversation). What bores they didn't enjoy it. Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[Kenngo1969]

I said "at times". Unfortunate... yep but in some instances true.

Some ... at times ... but not you, right? What do you have to say regarding my proposed solution to the alleged "ineffectiveness" and "uselessness" of these leaders?

[ERayR]

Am currently reading the book by Prince and Wright and am experiencing some rejection of it by my ultimate earthly authority who prefers the sanitized history provided by the institute and BYU religion courses where the GAs all immediately accept every inspiration the Prophet has. I worked a discussion of the building policies into my HP lesson today in connection with the fact that our Temples and chapels tend to be segregated away from the areas where there are real social issues, and that triggered some objection from a visitor from Boston. Am wondering if others are having similar resistance. Perhaps there is something to the effect that over sanitized history is having on the ability of members to face reality.

What do building practices have to have to do with the priesthood lesson?

Would you expect chapels and Temples to be located in neighborhoods where the safety of those coming and going could be at issue?

[Stone holm]

What do building practices have to have to do with the priesthood lesson?

Would you expect chapels and Temples to be located in neighborhoods where the safety of those coming and going could be at issue?

No, I don't and they aren't. But, although they become sanctuaries, we need to get out into those areas where the real need is. Although I don't agree with their doctrine, I have to confess that the Catholics and the Black Evangelicals are doing a better job of reaching out and dealing with many issues than we are. The specific rationale given for the building program in Europe was that our buildings were not conveying the message that we were comprised of the better class of people.

[Calm]

The specific rationale given for the building program in Europe was that our buildings were not conveying the message that we were comprised of the better class of people.

CFR please.

[Stone holm]

CFR please.

Chapter 9 , The Building program, "David O. McKay and The Rise Of Modern Mormonism. Pretty hard to miss.

[Calm]

Chapter 9 , The Building program, "David O. McKay and The Rise Of Modern Mormonism. Pretty hard to miss.

I will go dig it out. Hopefully it is not one of my books I have lent out and not gotten back like Rough Stone Rolling. Edited June 24, 2013 by calmoriah

[thesometimesaint]

No, I don't and they aren't. But, although they become sanctuaries, we need to get out into those areas where the real need is. Although I don't agree with their doctrine, I have to confess that the Catholics and the Black Evangelicals are doing a better job of reaching out and dealing with many issues than we are. The specific rationale given for the building program in Europe was that our buildings were not conveying the message that we were comprised of the better class of people.

Temples are a bit different in function than our regular Ward, and Stake, buildings. We tend to build Temples where we already own the property or can get it at a reasonable price. Ward and Stake buildings tend to be where ever there is a need.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/10/02/nyregion/02mormon.html?_r=0

[Stone holm]

Temples are a bit different in function than our regular Ward, and Stake, buildings. We tend to build Temples where we already own the property or can get it at a reasonable price. Ward and Stake buildings tend to be where ever there is a need.

http://www.nytimes.c...ormon.html?_r=0

There is a very extensive list of requirements for the location of chapels that has to be met. If the guidelines are followed the location of the chapel will always wind up in either upper or middle-class neighborhoods.

[thesometimesaint]

There is a very extensive list of requirements for the location of chapels that has to be met. If the guidelines are followed the location of the chapel will always wind up in either upper or middle-class neighborhoods.

Except for where it isn't. If the demand is there we'll build it. Even if we have to meet for a time in Silvia's.

[sheilauk]

There is a very extensive list of requirements for the location of chapels that has to be met. If the guidelines are followed the location of the chapel will always wind up in either upper or middle-class neighborhoods.

Seriously? Is this a modern thing or does it go back to the foundation of the Church? Almost all the chapels in my stake are in what I would consider to be working class areas. I live in a working class area of mining towns (where the mines have closed) and there is little to no manufacturing left, unemployment and deprivation are high and average income is below that of the County, let alone the country. No, the chapels aren't on ex Council housing (government provided) estates which are the most deprived areas - but you wouldn't be able to buy the land, even now and they are close by, often within walking distance. The members in my ward come from all walks of life and all classes. Such generalisations are not helpful, its almost insulting - like I don't exist. The LDS is a world wide organisation and its not the same the world over, though I suspect even in the USA, there are chapels in all sorts of areas.

[Stone holm]

Seriously? Is this a modern thing or does it go back to the foundation of the Church? Almost all the chapels in my stake are in what I would consider to be working class areas. I live in a working class area of mining towns (where the mines have closed) and there is little to no manufacturing left, unemployment and deprivation are high and average income is below that of the County, let alone the country. No, the chapels aren't on ex Council housing (government provided) estates which are the most deprived areas - but you wouldn't be able to buy the land, even now and they are close by, often within walking distance. The members in my ward come from all walks of life and all classes. Such generalisations are not helpful, its almost insulting - like I don't exist. The LDS is a world wide organisation and its not the same the world over, though I suspect even in the USA, there are chapels in all sorts of areas.

How old are the chapels? and what part of the United States are you talking about. I have met in old Methodist Churches, former VFW halls, above fire stations, etc. But when it comes to building a new chapel, there are a host of guidelines.

[Buckeye]

Am currently reading the book by Prince and Wright and am experiencing some rejection of it by my ultimate earthly authority who prefers the sanitized history provided by the institute and BYU religion courses where the GAs all immediately accept every inspiration the Prophet has. I worked a discussion of the building policies into my HP lesson today in connection with the fact that our Temples and chapels tend to be segregated away from the areas where there are real social issues, and that triggered some objection from a visitor from Boston. Am wondering if others are having similar resistance. Perhaps there is something to the effect that over sanitized history is having on the ability of members to face reality.

Cool. I'm currently a little behind you in the book. I really like it. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to read at the moment because of church assignments and three boys in baseball.

Was the rejection you experienced aimed at the use of the book itself (the McKay Bio) or more at the specific issue (building policies)? I raised medium-touchy issues from time to time in my congregation - for instance, mentioning that President Grant had serious mental health issues and how the Lord still trusted him as prophet. However, I rarely cite to the sources in church unless I'm asked.

As the building policies, I give the benefit of the doubt to our leaders on that one. We need to place church's (and especially temples) in safe and reliable locations. And we need to choose a location where people are likely to want to live in the future, not just right now, since the buildings are meant to last decades. I also think there is an element of focusing on locations that can best foster future growth, just like missionaries are sometimes instructed to focus on teaching community leaders first. It's not that the wealthy and well-educated are more valuable in an intrinsic sense - just that they have more resources and abilities to building the kingdom around.

On a personal note, my current chapel is beautiful, but in a lousy location. It was built 60 years ago, is not cookie-cutter at all, has gorgeous wood paneling in the chapel. But it also has constant upkeep problems and is far away from most of our members, particularly families with young children. For this reason, mutual and seminary attendance is a constant struggle because it takes around an hour for many members to get to and from church. Were a new building to be given us, I'm sure it would be much closer to where members currently live, and also in a much nicer part of town.

[sheilauk]

How old are the chapels? and what part of the United States are you talking about. I have met in old Methodist Churches, former VFW halls, above fire stations, etc. But when it comes to building a new chapel, there are a host of guidelines.

I'm in the UK.

[Stone holm]

I'm in the UK.

Yeah, have no idea about the UK.

[Stone holm]

Cool. I'm currently a little behind you in the book. I really like it. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to read at the moment because of church assignments and three boys in baseball.

Was the rejection you experienced aimed at the use of the book itself (the McKay Bio) or more at the specific issue (building policies)? I raised medium-touchy issues from time to time in my congregation - for instance, mentioning that President Grant had serious mental health issues and how the Lord still trusted him as prophet. However, I rarely cite to the sources in church unless I'm asked.

As the building policies, I give the benefit of the doubt to our leaders on that one. We need to place church's (and especially temples) in safe and reliable locations. And we need to choose a location where people are likely to want to live in the future, not just right now, since the buildings are meant to last decades. I also think there is an element of focusing on locations that can best foster future growth, just like missionaries are sometimes instructed to focus on teaching community leaders first. It's not that the wealthy and well-educated are more valuable in an intrinsic sense - just that they have more resources and abilities to building the kingdom around.

On a personal note, my current chapel is beautiful, but in a lousy location. It was built 60 years ago, is not cookie-cutter at all, has gorgeous wood paneling in the chapel. But it also has constant upkeep problems and is far away from most of our members, particularly families with young children. For this reason, mutual and seminary attendance is a constant struggle because it takes around an hour for many members to get to and from church. Were a new building to be given us, I'm sure it would be much closer to where members currently live, and also in a much nicer part of town.

I don't think my reading about the building policies bothered her, because she has gone through at least one of those and knows that can be bizarre. What bothers her is the parts that suggest that the Presidency occassionally manuevers around the Quorum of the Twelve, and she has this concept in her head that the everyone in the Quorum of the Twelve is always 100% behind every policy change or major action. I have explained to her that there may be unanimous votes, but that just means that the Quorum is voting to support the First Presidency not that they necessarily agree with the idea. She is also sensitive about the de facto racism involved in some of the quotes of Harold B. Lee, etc. She realizes that I have come to resent the sustaining vote thing and tend to avoid Ward Conference and Stake Conference sessions where those are performed. I have come to feel those are a mixture of farce and coercion -- although, I remember being a Stake Executive Secretary when a Bishop wasn't sustained one time and that had a fairly hideous aftermath.

[Calm]

If the guidelines are followed the location of the chapel will always wind up in either upper or middle-class neighborhoods.

CFR please...and if you mean the book you pointed me to, something current please.

[Stone holm]

CFR please...and if you mean the book you pointed me to, something current please.

Confess my last involvement was about 20 years ago, I doubt the checklists have gotten any shorter, and yes I would refer you to that book.