Why Martyrdom?

[Bernard Gui]

In his letter to the Romans, Ignatius pleads with Christians not to intervene in his behalf to prevent his martyrdom.

I am writing to all the churches and assuring them that I am truly earnest about dying for God - if only you yourselves put no obstacles in the way...leave me to be a meal for the beasts, for it is they who can provide my way to God...Better still, incite the creatures to become a sepulchre for me; let them not leave the smallest scraps...When there is no trace of my body left for the world to see, then I shall truly be Jesus Christ's disciple...I am yearning for death with all the passion of a lover...Even if I were to come and implore you in person, do not yield to my pleading...

He desires the most gruesome death possible.

Fire, cross, beast-fighting, hacking and quartering, splinterting of bone and mangling of lime, even the pulverizing of my entire body - let every horrid and diabolical torment come upon me, provided only that I can win my way to Jesus Christ.

He believes his martyrdom is the will of God and a sign of his standing in the church.

Intercede for me, then, that I may have my wish; for I am not writing now as a mere man, but I am voicing the mind of God. My suffering will be a proof of your goodwill; my rejections, a proof of your disfavor.

My questions:

What is the scriptural basis for the quest for martyrdom?

How does giving one's life in a horrific way gain the approval of God and the assurance of eternal life?

[thesometimesaint]

From my reading of the Scriptures it doesn't appear that seeking martyrdom is condoned. But that it did happen anyway.

I don't believe it does. Any fool can die for a cause; it takes real bravery to live for it.

[Scott Lloyd]

In his letter to the Romans, Ignatius pleads with Christians not to intervene in his behalf to prevent his martyrdom.

He desires the most gruesome death possible.

He believes his martyrdom is the will of God and a sign of his standing in the church.

My questions:

What is the scriptural basis for the quest for martyrdom?

How does giving one's life in a horrific way gain the approval of God and the assurance of eternal life?

Perhaps it's begging the question, but you did call for the scriptural basis.

Hebrews 9:16-17 states:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

I would correlate that with Doctrine and Covenants 135:5, which says of Joseph and Hyrum Smith:

The testators are now dead, and their testament is in force.

Regarding your question, I'm not persuaded that "giving one's life in a horrific way" is requisite for martyrdom. To me, a martyr is such if he refuses to renounce his declarations or standards or ideals as a condition for being allowed to remain alive, whatever the means of death might be.

Edited May 20, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[theplains]

I would correlate that with Doctrine and Covenants 135:5, which says of Joseph and Hyrum Smith:

I have heard it said that they were martyrs, but Joseph and Hyrum were not imprisoned nor killed

for their faith in Christ.

Regards,

Jim

[bluebell]

I wonder if the belief in the superiority of martyrdom is a part of the apostasy.

Having taken a history class on Ancient Rome, I know that Christians trying to get burned at the stake was a big problem for many a roman emperor. Most preferred a "don't ask don't tell" way of dealing with Christians but there were so many Christians turning themselves in to be killed that it was a struggle to keep them out of trouble.

Somewhere down the line it seems that Christians came to believe dying for the cause was much better than trying to live for it.

[Scott Lloyd]

I have heard it said that they were martyrs, but Joseph and Hyrum were not imprisoned nor killed

for their faith in Christ.

Regards,

Jim

It is said that they were martyrs because that is what they were.

They were killed due to their determination to follow commandments and callings given to them by Jesus Christ.

[SamIam]

I have heard it said that they were martyrs, but Joseph and Hyrum were not imprisoned nor killed

for their faith in Christ.

Regards,

Jim

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[Questing Beast]

The "martyr complex" is a human phenomenon not limited to religion. Extreme signs of some mental/emotional illness or instability manifest in the martyr complex. It is very, very common. And it is tied to the aphorism, "in this life the most important thing to learn is, who to blame". When someone takes the world to be at fault, and not themselves, the martyr complex kicks in. And in extreme cases it is deadly. Iggy was insane.

Joseph and Hyrum Smith, on the other hand, were victims of mobocracy, and imho were not martyred despite what Mormon tradition asserts. They were murdered for flouting the Constitution in the name of unpopular religion, that's what pushed "the mob" over the edge....

[bluebell]

The "martyr complex" is a human phenomenon not limited to religion. Extreme signs of some mental/emotional illness or instability manifest in the martyr complex. It is very, very common. And it is tied to the aphorism, "in this life the most important thing to learn is, who to blame". When someone takes the world to be at fault, and not themselves, the martyr complex kicks in. And in extreme cases it is deadly. Iggy was insane.

Joseph and Hyrum Smith, on the other hand, were victims of mobocracy, and imho were not martyred despite what Mormon tradition asserts. They were murdered for flouting the Constitution in the name of unpopular religion, that's what pushed "the mob" over the edge....

Given all the things mob violence had done in Missouri and the surrounding area which was completely against the constitution, it's very unlikely they were willing to kill because someone else also did something they thought was against it.

The act of killing in and of itself was much more flouting the constitution than anything JS had ever done yet they had no problem with that.

The evidence suggests that the mob had not so much been pushed over the edge by a destroyed press (that kind if stuff was child's play for such people and nothing they would shy away from doing themselves) but that they suddenly were able to rationalize violence they had wanted to committ for some time.

[Questing Beast]

"Rationalize", that's the operating word alright. The Mob was composed of very violent and murderous persons who clothed their actions in the Constitution and their own religion. They saw Mormonism as a blight on the land and whipped up themselves into a religious, patriotic frenzy to "defend and protect" their beloved constitutional and religious institutions from the cancer of Mormonism, etc. Telling the Mob that they were in fact more guilty of breaking their beloved constitution would have possibly got you mobbed as well. They were past being rational about Joseph Smith and Company. It was the perceived wrongs done by Mayor Smith and his council which got the arrest order put out on him and the mobbing occurred because the Mob convinced each other that "justice would not be served by law" ergo, they must take the "law" into their own hands, and so they did....

[why me]

He believes his martyrdom is the will of God and a sign of his standing in the church.

My questions:

What is the scriptural basis for the quest for martyrdom?

How does giving one's life in a horrific way gain the approval of God and the assurance of eternal life?

Many catholics do not consider Joseph Smith a martyr because he attempted to defend himself and not just go to his death like a lamb to slaughter. What we have are early christians quietly going to their death for martyrdom. I don't know if this is actually true or just hollywood attempting to capture drama. However, I think human beings should not submit to a silent or quiet martyrdom. It becomes a form of suicide if one does not defend themselves.

[why me]

It was the perceived wrongs done by Mayor Smith and his council which got the arrest order put out on him and the mobbing occurred because the Mob convinced each other that "justice would not be served by law" ergo, they must take the "law" into their own hands, and so they did....

The mobs were aroused into action through sensational newspaper reports about the mormons. I think that newspapers must take responsibility for the murders of Joseph and Hyrum. And in this comes the Nauvoo Expositor to add to the sensationalism. However, the mobs could destroy mormon presses at will and they did. No constitutionalism was present at all when the mobs did this. And neither was the law.

[theplains]

It is said that they were martyrs because that is what they were.

They were killed due to their determination to follow commandments and callings given to them by Jesus Christ.

It's odd how this particular angry mob only chose to go after Joseph and Hyrum instead

of any other non-LDS Christian who chose to follow commandments and callings given

to them by Jesus Christ.

From what I read, Joseph Smith was escaping from arrest. Someone accused him of

deserting the Saints so he returned. That and accusations of treason/burning a press/&

polygamy led to his arrest (and possibly mob anger). Not sure where you are getting your

"for Christ" rationale.

Regards,

Jim

[inquiringmind]

In his letter to the Romans, Ignatius pleads with Christians not to intervene in his behalf to prevent his martyrdom.

He desires the most gruesome death possible.

He believes his martyrdom is the will of God and a sign of his standing in the church.

My questions:

What is the scriptural basis for the quest for martyrdom?

How does giving one's life in a horrific way gain the approval of God and the assurance of eternal life?

Could this be the scriptural basis?

Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it stays alone: but if it die, it brings forth much fruit. He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honor. (John 12:24-26.)

Or this?

For I think that God has set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle to the world, and to angels, and to men. (1 Cor. 4:9.)

Or this?

Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yes, moreover of bonds and imprisonment (Heb. 11;35-36.)

Edited May 20, 2013 by inquiringmind

[Calm]

I have heard it said that they were martyrs, but Joseph and Hyrum were not imprisoned nor killed

for their faith in Christ.

They were martyred because they did more than just believed, they acted on their faith in Christ and obeyed him.

[Calm]

From what I read, Joseph Smith was escaping from arrest. Someone accused him of

deserting the Saints so he returned. That and accusations of treason/burning a press/&

polygamy led to his arrest (and possibly mob anger). Not sure where you are getting your

"for Christ" rationale.

Regards,

Jim

And NT apostles appealed to the Romans in order to not be executed. Were early Christians killed for just their belief or because they refused to do something or did something contrary to what the prevailing authority wanted? Weren't they often accused of treason? Weren't there often involved mobs that shouted for their death?

The accusations of treason, etc. grew out of their attempts to bring heaven to earth the best way that they knew how in their attempts to fulfill God's Will.

Edited May 20, 2013 by calmoriah

[Scott Lloyd]

Many catholics do not consider Joseph Smith a martyr because he attempted to defend himself and not just go to his death like a lamb to slaughter.

I'm not acquainted with the typical attitude of Catholics on this, but I have heard this view before, and I regard it as quite wrong.

All that is necessary for one to be a martyr is to refuse to renounce one's cause as a condition for being allowed to remain alive. A martyr might accept death passively, but does not need to in order to be a martyr.

What we have are early christians quietly going to their death for martyrdom. I don't know if this is actually true or just hollywood attempting to capture drama. However, I think human beings should not submit to a silent or quiet martyrdom. It becomes a form of suicide if one does not defend themselves.

I quite agree with you -- and I earnestly feel, as I've stated above, that one can resist death and still be a martyr, so long as one refuses to renounce his/her beliefs.

[Scott Lloyd]

It's odd how this particular angry mob only chose to go after Joseph and Hyrum instead

of any other non-LDS Christian who chose to follow commandments and callings given

to them by Jesus Christ.

I agree it is quite odd. And it is evidence to me that their cause was true in fulfillment of prophecy by Christ himself.

From what I read, Joseph Smith was escaping from arrest. Someone accused him of

deserting the Saints so he returned.

And thus answered the demands of the authorities without renouncing his faith, beliefs, declarations, cause. Which makes him very much a martyr.

That and accusations of treason/burning a press/& polygamy led to his arrest (and possibly mob anger).

There was no burning of a press. The pages of the newspaper were destroyed and the type was pied (scattered).

The charge of treason was trumped up. It stemmed from the declaration by the city council of martial law in an effort to preserve the safety of the citizenry from mobs in surrounding towns. I have talked with legal experts today who say a charge of treason was highly irregular considering the circumstances. There was no treason.

Not sure where you are getting your

"for Christ" rationale.

Joseph Smith was a prophet called by Jesus Christ, who appeared to him personally. The church Joseph established was a restoration of the original church that Christ set up on the earth. Joseph was commanded by Christ to do it.

Joseph's acts in relation to the Church were under commandment of Christ. If he were to renounce his cause, as the mobs wanted him to do, he would have violated Christ's commandments.

That's where I'm getting the "'for Christ' rationale."

[The Nehor]

Probably a dispensational thing. The Apostles knew their mission was short and they did not take a lot of steps to try to preserve the Church for the future because they knew it was a matter of saving a few handfuls of souls, dying, and the faith dying with them. Death was a relief in the end because they knew they were going to eventually lose (though of course those they did help to salvation won). In those circumstances martyrdom is an honorable death and even something to maybe look forward to. In most cases that does not apply to us. We get to eventually win and survival does not mean living longer into a dark night with hope only for yourself as the lights of the gospel go out.

[The Nehor]

Joseph and Hyrum Smith, on the other hand, were victims of mobocracy, and imho were not martyred despite what Mormon tradition asserts. They were murdered for flouting the Constitution in the name of unpopular religion, that's what pushed "the mob" over the edge....

Yeah, I'm sure the mob that took out Joseph and Hyrum were motivated by their sensibility to the Constitution and the legal intricacies of habeas corpus and the generous Nauvoo charter and not just killing people they hated. Admittedly it was only part of the Constitution they held in such high regard. Due Process and all that was of course unnecessary in the minds of these high-minded citizens acting to defend their nation and their families from the Mormon menace.

[Duncan]

I'd much prefer martydom then choking to death or getting run over by a bus or something

[Robert F. Smith]

The "martyr complex" is a human phenomenon not limited to religion. Extreme signs of some mental/emotional illness or instability manifest in the martyr complex. It is very, very common. And it is tied to the aphorism, "in this life the most important thing to learn is, who to blame". When someone takes the world to be at fault, and not themselves, the martyr complex kicks in. And in extreme cases it is deadly. Iggy was insane.

Joseph and Hyrum Smith, on the other hand, were victims of mobocracy, and imho were not martyred despite what Mormon tradition asserts. They were murdered for flouting the Constitution in the name of unpopular religion, that's what pushed "the mob" over the edge....

You are misinformed, Beast. Joseph was the victim of a political assassination. You forgot to read Robert S. Wicks and Fred R. Foister. Junius &. Joseph: Presidential Politics and the Assassination of the First Mormon Prophet (Logan: USU Press, 2005), available online at http://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1041&context=usupress_pubs&sei-redir=1&referer=http%3A%2F%2F .

Your version of mobocracy reminds me of the controversy surrounding the false claim that the assassination of our ambassador in Benghazi, Libya, was just a spontaneous mob action. Yeh, right . . .

[Robert F. Smith]

"Rationalize", that's the operating word alright. The Mob was composed of very violent and murderous persons who clothed their actions in the Constitution and their own religion. They saw Mormonism as a blight on the land and whipped up themselves into a religious, patriotic frenzy to "defend and protect" their beloved constitutional and religious institutions from the cancer of Mormonism, etc. Telling the Mob that they were in fact more guilty of breaking their beloved constitution would have possibly got you mobbed as well. They were past being rational about Joseph Smith and Company. It was the perceived wrongs done by Mayor Smith and his council which got the arrest order put out on him and the mobbing occurred because the Mob convinced each other that "justice would not be served by law" ergo, they must take the "law" into their own hands, and so they did....

Sounds like a typical Hollywood movie. A formula which you summarize all too well. Too bad Hollywood so often flouts reality. Maybe you could now favor us with the reasons why Jesus was crucified, according to that same formula.

[Robert F. Smith]

Many catholics do not consider Joseph Smith a martyr because he attempted to defend himself and not just go to his death like a lamb to slaughter. What we have are early christians quietly going to their death for martyrdom. I don't know if this is actually true or just hollywood attempting to capture drama. However, I think human beings should not submit to a silent or quiet martyrdom. It becomes a form of suicide if one does not defend themselves.

Yes, and the question I want to ask in that case is, Were the Jews slaughtered by Hitler martyrs? Does that include the Jews who did not go quietly -- as in the Warsaw Ghetto unprising?

Another thing: Is unmerited suffering redemptive?

[Robert F. Smith]

The mobs were aroused into action through sensational newspaper reports about the mormons. I think that newspapers must take responsibility for the murders of Joseph and Hyrum. And in this comes the Nauvoo Expositor to add to the sensationalism. However, the mobs could destroy mormon presses at will and they did. No constitutionalism was present at all when the mobs did this. And neither was the law.

Yes, and the best indicator that you are correct is the fate of non-Mormon Elijah P. Lovejoy, a contemporary of Joseph Smith:

Merton Dillon, Elijah P. Lovejoy, Abolitionist Editor (1961). Lovejoy, the outspoken abolitionist editor of the St. Louis Observer, had to flee to Illinois – where he was murdered by an angry mob, Nov 7, 1837. Cf. Robert Flanders, Nauvoo, 308, who considers the event similar to the fate of Joseph Smith.