What Is Utah Culture And What Is Church Culture?

[Damien the Leper]

Guess what. EVERYONE has an agenda. There are no facts, only interpretations. What kind of good Marxist are you if you don't know that??

Gus Hall would be ashamed. But really- isn't the CPUSA kind of passe now?

"If you go carryin' pictures of Chairman Mao

You ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.

You know it's gonna be

Alright."

Passe in the same sense as the Democrats, Republicans and the Tea Party are passe?

[Damien the Leper]

I'm glad you are even-handed in your criticism. And if you were to amend your last sentence to read, "Where the media [are] concerned, there is no such thing as objective," I would even agree with you. But I believe it's possible for a media outlet to be fair, just as I believe it's possible for a non-objective individual to be fair.

I agree with your amended version.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I don't believe you're an ignoramus. I may not always agree with you but you always come off as reasonable. I don't much care for any media outlet. There is not one that that does not promote some sort of propaganda or has an agenda. Where the media is concerned, there is no such thing as fair and balanced.

What is with the CPUSA? Are you trying to bring more controversy?

Edited for clarification.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[mfbukowski]

Passe in the same sense as the Democrats, Republicans and the Tea Party are passe?

Yeah, kinda like that.

I used to be a commie too but I got better.

One of my professors at UCLA in the philosophy dept. was Angela Davis. Google her if you don't know the name.

I was there when all the fun was happening in 1969.

But now I am about as far right as you can get! That's the fruits of experience in how the world really works!

Edited May 13, 2013 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

What is with the CPUSA? Are you trying to bring controversy?

Controversy on a debate board?? Oh heavens to Betsy!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Controversy on a debate board?? Oh heavens to Betsy!

I ment to say "more". Any way. Edited May 13, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Bernard Gui]

I don't believe Scott represents the media, generally or specifically, by any means. My issues with the media, NY Times, DN, SLT, AZ Rep, Boston Globe, etc...it doesn't matter. They are all controlled by propaganda and an agenda. No media outlet is an innocent victim and I refuse to treat any as such.

But you said,

Unlike other ignoramuses, I know that you don't represent des news as a whole.

Think about it.

[freedad]

I have an old Improvement Era magazine at home from 1958. It is the issue that announced Howard W. Hunter as the newest member of the Twelve. The headline reads, "Apostle from ... California!"

When we went to visit my sister in law in Utah (twice, and in different wards) we stayed for all three hours and had no one, no one, welcomed us or introduced themselves to us. No one in Sunday School, no one in priesthood, no one in Relief Society, no one in primary. We were outsiders. In my California ward visitors are welcomed by many ward members.

I don't want to pick on Utahns. But many members there (including my grandparents) view themselves as superior because they are near church headquarters or not as integrated in the world. I feel that I am looked down upon sometimes because I am not a Utah Mormon.

[Tacenda]

I have an old Improvement Era magazine at home from 1958. It is the issue that announced Howard W. Hunter as the newest member of the Twelve. The headline reads, "Apostle from ... California!"

When we went to visit my sister in law in Utah (twice, and in different wards) we stayed for all three hours and had no one, no one, welcomed us or introduced themselves to us. No one in Sunday School, no one in priesthood, no one in Relief Society, no one in primary. We were outsiders. In my California ward visitors are welcomed by many ward members.

I don't want to pick on Utahns. But many members there (including my grandparents) view themselves as superior because they are near church headquarters or not as integrated in the world. I feel that I am looked down upon sometimes because I am not a Utah Mormon.

I'm sorry for your treatment. There are definitely different pockets of weird culture in Utah. I remember as a 15 yr. old entering high school, my family moved to Santa Clara, Utah. Just outside of St. George. There were no visits from the bishopric or RS to welcome us to the ward. We were there for only 6 months. My mom and I missed our friends and family so much, that we were able to talk my dad into moving home back to the Bountiful Utah area. Also, the high school was so mean to newcomers. It was a horrible experience so much so that I ditched school and my self esteem plummeted after having a vicious rumor told about me the first day of school. Some places are very close minded. In other areas it's far more diverse and they'd be more open to outsiders and make them feel welcome. Sometimes wards are so into their friends in the ward they don't even notice a new person or visitor. This could be a start off point for leaders to preach missionary work. Start in treating new faces in the ward building as a new friendship or member even. Not only to get them to join the church but to keep or atleast show Christlike behaviour.

Recently, I attended another faith's religion just for interest. I was amazed at their friendliness, they weren't trying to convert me, because they had no idea I wasn't one of them. I never told them anything. I was very bashful, and they made me feel very comfortable. They had someone at the front door of the building passing out the program, not inside the chapel. Having someone at the door might be an idea. Two people, one at each entrance of the building, welcome people to church that day, maybe a little before each Sacrament meeting. And the foyer could use some help to be more welcoming, flowers etc. Also, some deeper cleaning of the building might come into play. There are things broken inside our church and the grounds around it look pretty bad. But back to the visitors....they can get lost in the shuffle and much can be done to help alleviate the problem. It could be just my stake/ward that has the problem. Oh, and the other faiths pastor/minister stood just inside the door of the chapel to shake hands with people. That was very nice and took me by surprise when he turned out to be the minister. I was thinking it was a greeter that was established beforehand, but not the minister/pastor. Maybe our bishopric could stand at the chapel doors?

[BlueDreams]

Soo a little late in the game....Here's some random differences that I noticed right off the bat when I first moved to UT, and then some others along the way:

- The ridiculous percentage of blondes/red heads. That was super weird to me. A good number is simply about genetic distribution....but a number of that is for some strange desire to have your hair blonde or blonder. I now have this game I play in my head to try and pick out the real blondes. I think I'm getting better at it.

- REALLY young families. And by that I mean REALLY young parents. It was very rare to see a family of 3 with the parents under 30. But here 2-3 kids by 30 is common. 4 is not unheard of. It still astounds me when I see someone with a gaggle of kids and the mom looks like she's no older than 35.

- Very smiley people....all the time. Sometimes I would put my head down just so i wouldn't have to smile at yet another stranger.

- Gardening....serious vegetable/fruit gardens. And local produce strongly promoted. This may be a church thing as well, because other regions are kinda big on it as well. Parts of UT may still be lacking on other environmentally sound things like recycling, but they seriously rock the garden. i feel like anybody who's anybody will have at least a potted plant. While in suburbia it's a mini-farm...in your front yard or backyard....where ever there's good enough space. Many own their own chickens for pete's sake.

- Cultural homogeneity.....diversity is minimal and often represented in a transracial adoptee....though there are growing Polynesian/Latino numbers. Culture is cool though.....there's just minimal access to it on a more direct route. Because of that UT, for being so homogenous has a strange number of food joints that are actually pretty good and culturally diverse.

- church activities/culture are a given. ex. When you ask someone where they're getting married, you expect a temple....in fact you may skip and ask which temple they'll seal the deal in.

- This comes from a number of women that I've known: a strong emphasis on looks....and by that I mean make-up/hair. One I talked to had associated looking presentable with having her make-up done before leaving the house. She was shock by east-coasters who did not spend nearly that type of time or effort primping.

- making modest things that just aren't meant to be made modest.....like halter tops. An undershirt may cover all the esentials but it usually ruins the design.

- very conservative, both socially and politically.

Church: I lived in UT and TX and this is what I've noticed

- General mormon cohesion. I often feel we're more like an ethnic group than just about any religious denom with a conversion rate as high as ours. Plus the mormons generally stick together.

- Weird marriage practices that don't happen anywhere else. The actual marriage ceremony, if done the way most young mormons aspire to, will be small. But after, there maybe 2-3 receptions or open houses...in different states. And it'll all be done for pennies compared to most weddings.

- Overall we're a frugal people

- Mission-orientation; strongly family oriented

With luv,

BD

Edited May 13, 2013 by BlueDreams

[Bernard Gui]

I'm sorry for your treatment. There are definitely different pockets of weird culture in Utah. I remember as a 15 yr. old entering high school, my family moved to Santa Clara, Utah. Just outside of St. George. There were no visits from the bishopric or RS to welcome us to the ward. We were there for only 6 months. My mom and I missed our friends and family so much, that we were able to talk my dad into moving home back to the Bountiful Utah area. Also, the high school was so mean to newcomers. It was a horrible experience so much so that I ditched school and my self esteem plummeted after having a vicious rumor told about me the first day of school. Some places are very close minded. In other areas it's far more diverse and they'd be more open to outsiders and make them feel welcome. Sometimes wards are so into their friends in the ward they don't even notice a new person or visitor. This could be a start off point for leaders to preach missionary work. Start in treating new faces in the ward building as a new friendship or member even. Not only to get them to join the church but to keep or atleast show Christlike behaviour.

Recently, I attended another faith's religion just for interest. I was amazed at their friendliness, they weren't trying to convert me, because they had no idea I wasn't one of them. I never told them anything. I was very bashful, and they made me feel very comfortable. They had someone at the front door of the building passing out the program, not inside the chapel. Having someone at the door might be an idea. Two people, one at each entrance of the building, welcome people to church that day, maybe a little before each Sacrament meeting. And the foyer could use some help to be more welcoming, flowers etc. Also, some deeper cleaning of the building might come into play. There are things broken inside our church and the grounds around it look pretty bad. But back to the visitors....they can get lost in the shuffle and much can be done to help alleviate the problem. It could be just my stake/ward that has the problem. Oh, and the other faiths pastor/minister stood just inside the door of the chapel to shake hands with people. That was very nice and took me by surprise when he turned out to be the minister. I was thinking it was a greeter that was established beforehand, but not the minister/pastor. Maybe our bishopric could stand at the chapel doors?

Some interesting thoughts and observations.

The physical layout of our modern buildings makes them less welcoming. Our ward has 4 outside entrances, and the chapel itself has 6 doors. The bishopric can't cover them all. We do have teachers quorum members who hand out programs. I would be happy if the young women did that, too. Most members of the ward take it on themselves to keep an eye out for visitors or new faces.

Cleaning...I take a few hours now and then to go around and clean smudge marks off the walls, fill holes in the wallboard with spackle, get the spots out of the carpet, etc. No law against us taking some of the responsibility to fix things up.

I don't think snobbishness is unique to Utah. It's easy for people to become insular, wrapped up in our own little world. We all should be more welcoming to everyone.

Oh....a few of weeks ago, there was a man sitting on the curb in our parking lot. He looked pretty disheveled, but someone went up to him and talked with him. Turned out he was a long-inactive member down on his luck and trying to come back to the church, but didn't have the courage to go in. He is now coming regularly and is really getting his life back in order. Someone cared and shared.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

- The ridiculous percentage of blondes/red heads. That was super weird to me. A good number is simply about genetic distribution....but a number of that is for some strange desire to have your hair blonde or blonder. I now have this game I play in my head to try and pick out the real blondes. I think I'm getting better at it.

Lots of faux blondes where I live, but not too many LDS.

- REALLY young families. And by that I mean REALLY young parents. It was very rare to see a family of 3 with the parents under 30. But here 2-3 kids by 30 is common. 4 is not unheard of. It still astounds me when I see someone with a gaggle of kids and the mom looks like she's no older than 35.

I think that is an LDS thing, not just Utah.

- Very smiley people....all the time. Sometimes I would put my head down just so i wouldn't have to smile at yet another stranger.

I really like this friendly Utah and LDS behavior.

- Gardening....serious vegetable/fruit gardens. And local produce strongly promoted. This may be a church thing as well, because other regions are kinda big on it as well. Parts of UT may still be lacking on other environmentally sound things like recycling, but they seriously rock the garden. i feel like anybody who's anybody will have at least a potted plant. While in suburbia it's a mini-farm...in your front yard or backyard....where ever there's good enough space. Many own their own chickens for pete's sake.

I noted that above...that even if you don't live on a farm, you have a little plot of dirt on which you scratch a stick and call it your farm.

- Cultural homogeneity.....diversity is minimal and often represented in a transracial adoptee....though there are growing Polynesian/Latino numbers. Culture is cool though.....there's just minimal access to it on a more direct route. Because of that UT, for being so homogenous has a strange number of food joints that are actually pretty good and culturally diverse.

Interesting observation.

- church activities/culture are a given. ex. When you ask someone where they're getting married, you expect a temple....in fact you may skip and ask which temple they'll seal the deal in.

Seal the deal.

- This comes from a number of women that I've known: a strong emphasis on looks....and by that I mean make-up/hair. One I talked to had associated looking presentable with having her make-up done before leaving the house. She was shock by east-coasters who did not spend nearly that type of time or effort primping.

In my area, it's the Evangelical ladies who always look smashing in public...great hair, hip clothes, makeup.

- making modest things that just aren't meant to be made modest.....like halter tops. An undershirt may cover all the esentials but it usually ruins the design.

I think this is an LDS thing. I've seen it in many other areas.

- very conservative, both socially and politically.

All true Mormons are conservative.

- General mormon cohesion. I often feel we're more like an ethnic group than just about any religious denom with a conversion rate as high as ours. Plus the mormons generally stick together.

Agreed!

- Weird marriage practices that don't happen anywhere else. The actual marriage ceremony, if done the way most young mormons aspire to, will be small. But after, there maybe 2-3 receptions or open houses...in different states. And it'll all be done for pennies compared to most weddings.

Not good for me. I am a professional violinist who plays in a quartet for lots of weddings. We get big bucks for non-LDS weddings, but the Mormons expect

free entertainment. I have never been asked to play for an LDS wedding with an offer of pay, other than to get to eat the refreshments. I did play for a non-LDS

wedding where the mother of the bride told us we had been hired to play the music, not eat the food!

- Overall we're a frugal people

Indeed! Yet very generous when it comes to helping others or buying outdoor sporting equipment.

- Mission-orientation; strongly family oriented

Definitely an LDS trait, even in foreign countries where I have lived.

[Stone holm]

I have an old Improvement Era magazine at home from 1958. It is the issue that announced Howard W. Hunter as the newest member of the Twelve. The headline reads, "Apostle from ... California!"

When we went to visit my sister in law in Utah (twice, and in different wards) we stayed for all three hours and had no one, no one, welcomed us or introduced themselves to us. No one in Sunday School, no one in priesthood, no one in Relief Society, no one in primary. We were outsiders. In my California ward visitors are welcomed by many ward members.

I don't want to pick on Utahns. But many members there (including my grandparents) view themselves as superior because they are near church headquarters or not as integrated in the world. I feel that I am looked down upon sometimes because I am not a Utah Mormon.

Haven't attended that many Utah Wards, our local Vermont Ward you have to kind of fend off the handshakers and the poor visitor are asked to introduce themselves in at least two meetings each Sunday. That has pretty much been my universal experience in the Church -- although I have been told there are "cold" Wards. In our Ward any newcomers get beseiged and you just have to hope they are huggy smiley type otherwise its brutal. Our Ward has its huggers and its non-huggers -- I am in the latter group and try to position myself so its difficult to give me physical greetings, eventually the huggers figure out if you are not a hugee and simply shake your hand.

[Bernard Gui]

Haven't attended that many Utah Wards, our local Vermont Ward you have to kind of fend off the handshakers and the poor visitor are asked to introduce themselves in at least two meetings each Sunday. That has pretty much been my universal experience in the Church -- although I have been told there are "cold" Wards. In our Ward any newcomers get beseiged and you just have to hope they are huggy smiley type otherwise its brutal. Our Ward has its huggers and its non-huggers -- I am in the latter group and try to position myself so its difficult to give me physical greetings, eventually the huggers figure out if you are not a hugee and simply shake your hand.

We're always hungrily on the lookout for a new Scoutmaster, EQ president, YW president, nursery leader someone who knows how to play the piano.

I'm not keen on the hugging scene. For us school teachers, that has become a no-no. I'm not comfortable with male/female hugging, unless it's with a relative or spouse.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Bernard Gui

[Stone holm]

We're always hungrily on the lookout for a new Scoutmaster, EQ president, YW president, nursery leader someone who knows how to play the piano.

I'm not keen on the hugging scene. For us school teachers, that has become a no-no. I'm not comfortable with male/female hugging, unless it's with a relative or spouse.

Yep, fresh meat...that's our view as well.

[mfbukowski]

Haven't attended that many Utah Wards, our local Vermont Ward you have to kind of fend off the handshakers and the poor visitor are asked to introduce themselves in at least two meetings each Sunday. That has pretty much been my universal experience in the Church -- although I have been told there are "cold" Wards. In our Ward any newcomers get beseiged and you just have to hope they are huggy smiley type otherwise its brutal. Our Ward has its huggers and its non-huggers -- I am in the latter group and try to position myself so its difficult to give me physical greetings, eventually the huggers figure out if you are not a hugee and simply shake your hand.

I have found that a well-timed growl works wonders!

[Sine Saw Square]

One thing I've noticed- perhaps a Church wide thing? We tend to expect to get deals or freebies from other Mormons in their professional lives.

In contrast I heard an anecdote from a Jewish guy that within the Jewish community, if you know you're doing business with a fellow Jew, you pay a bit extra or throw in a bigger tip. A nice way to honor each other's livelihoods.

I think that would be a nice attitude to adopt.

[Damien the Leper]

But you said,

Think about it.

Shoot! You're right! I think I meant to generalize by saying media. Thanks for pointing it out to me.

[Damien the Leper]

What is with the CPUSA? Are you trying to bring more controversy?

Edited for clarification.

Umm...I'm pretty sure I announced my political party affiliation almost a year ago. I have been open about my Communist ideals. Where have you been, Mola?

[Damien the Leper]

Yeah, kinda like that.

I used to be a commie too but I got better.

One of my professors at UCLA in the philosophy dept. was Angela Davis. Google her if you don't know the name.

I was there when all the fun was happening in 1969.

But now I am about as far right as you can get! That's the fruits of experience in how the world really works!

I have met her on a few occasions when she has guest lectured here in AZ. She is wonderful. The last time I saw her speak she was with Amy Goodman of Democracy Now! Amy and her brother are also wonderful. I enjoyed her book "Exception to the Rulers". I used to be a Republican who voted for Bush in both elections. Then I made the mistake of voting for Obama in 08. Thankfully, I wised up and realized that there is not a democrat or republican worth the ink it would take to waste on their vote.

[Damien the Leper]

I ment to say "more". Any way.

If you're anti-Communist then you are anti-Law of Consecration and therefore anti-God. Simple logic.

[mfbukowski]

She is wonderful.

I have to say that she was clearly the most compassionate and sweetest professor I ever had.

But nowadays I disagree with her profoundly on politics.

[mfbukowski]

If you're anti-Communist then you are anti-Law of Consecration and therefore anti-God. Simple logic.

Radical difference- but we need not get into it here. There have been several threads on this.

[ERayR]

I have an old Improvement Era magazine at home from 1958. It is the issue that announced Howard W. Hunter as the newest member of the Twelve. The headline reads, "Apostle from ... California!"

When we went to visit my sister in law in Utah (twice, and in different wards) we stayed for all three hours and had no one, no one, welcomed us or introduced themselves to us. No one in Sunday School, no one in priesthood, no one in Relief Society, no one in primary. We were outsiders. In my California ward visitors are welcomed by many ward members.

I don't want to pick on Utahns. But many members there (including my grandparents) view themselves as superior because they are near church headquarters or not as integrated in the world. I feel that I am looked down upon sometimes because I am not a Utah Mormon.

I have been to wards that are friendly and to wards that are reserved towards strangers but never to an unfriendly one whether it be Utah or some other place.

[ERayR]

Haven't attended that many Utah Wards, our local Vermont Ward you have to kind of fend off the handshakers and the poor visitor are asked to introduce themselves in at least two meetings each Sunday. That has pretty much been my universal experience in the Church -- although I have been told there are "cold" Wards. In our Ward any newcomers get beseiged and you just have to hope they are huggy smiley type otherwise its brutal. Our Ward has its huggers and its non-huggers -- I am in the latter group and try to position myself so its difficult to give me physical greetings, eventually the huggers figure out if you are not a hugee and simply shake your hand.

My brother-in-law and family live in Dorset VT.