What Is Utah Culture And What Is Church Culture?

[Damien the Leper]

Radical difference- but we need not get into it here. There have been several threads on this.

I know. I was just having fun.

[Scott Lloyd]

I have an old Improvement Era magazine at home from 1958. It is the issue that announced Howard W. Hunter as the newest member of the Twelve. The headline reads, "Apostle from ... California!"

I think there is some presentism at play here.

I haven't looked into circumstances in 1958, but if Elder Hunter was the first apostle -- or perhaps the first General Authority -- to hail from California (and I'm fairly confident that was the case), that fact would have been newsworthy indeed. And I say that as a news journalist.

I know he wasn't the first in the modern age to be from outside of Utah, because Spencer W. Kimball came from Arizona, but I'm fairly certain it was unusual -- and hence, newsworthy -- to have one of the Brethren come from outside of Utah.

When we went to visit my sister in law in Utah (twice, and in different wards) we stayed for all three hours and had no one, no one, welcomed us or introduced themselves to us. No one in Sunday School, no one in priesthood, no one in Relief Society, no one in primary. We were outsiders. In my California ward visitors are welcomed by many ward members.

Attitudes differ from ward to ward wherever one goes. I don't buy it that this is an indigenous Utah thing, especially today, when so many wards in Utah already have so many transplants from out of state.

I've attended wards in other states where I've been treated as though I'm invisible. I just chalk it up to human nature.

I don't want to pick on Utahns. But many members there (including my grandparents) view themselves as superior because they are near church headquarters or not as integrated in the world. I feel that I am looked down upon sometimes because I am not a Utah Mormon.

I suspect there may be somewhat of a victim mentality here.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Bikeemikey]

I suspect there may be somewhat of the element of a victim complex here.

Having grown up in New Zealand with a steady stream of "Utah" Mormons coming through the ward for various amounts of time I can assure you you don't need to have a victim complex to have experiened the "holier than thou" disposition some Utah Mormons carry.

It tends to come across when they see something happening that is different from their experience in their Utah wards or stake. Then comes the comment, that's not how things are meant to be done. Followed up with a response of, oh, why not... Then there is the rejoinder, that's not how it is done in my ward, and I am from Utah. At that point New Zealanders (who are true to their own culturally normative anti-authoritarian temperament) say, oh, if that's your reason we couldn't careless... It normally takes a few more back and forth exchanges on similar themes before the Utah Mormon realizes we could careless how things are done in Utah.

At that point many are fine and move on... Others fall into apoplectic shock and really struggle with us kiwis after that.

The phenomenon seems clearly rooted in the notion that the process of church administration or church culture in Utah is clearly superior.

It's always an amusing encounter and happens with more Utah Mormons than it doesn't... Though few suffer from the apoplectic shock.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Bikeemikey

[Scott Lloyd]

Having grown up in New Zealand with a steady stream of "Utah" Mormons coming through the ward for various amounts of time I can assure you you don't need to have a victim complex to have experiened the "holier than thou" disposition some Utah Mormons carry.

It tends to come across when they see something happening that is different from their experience in their Utah wards or stake. Then comes the comment, that's not how things are meant to be done. Followed up with a response of, oh, why not... Then there is the rejoinder, that's not how it is done in my ward, and I am from Utah. At that point New Zealanders (who are true to their own culturally normative anti-authoritarian temperament) say, oh, if that's your reason we couldn't careless... It normally takes a few more back and forth exchanges on similar themes before the Utah Mormon realizes we could careless how things are done in Utah.

At that point many are fine and move on... Others fall into apoplectic shock and really struggle with us kiwis after that.

The phenomenon seems clearly rooted in the notion that the process of church administration or church culture in Utah is clearly superior.

It's always an amusing encounter and happens with more Utah Mormons than it doesn't... Though few suffer from the apoplectic shock.

I don't dispute that such a thing happens from time to time.

But I also suspect a degree of hypersensitivity that causes the occasional such occurence to be magnified in one's memory and perception.

I will say that I have known countless Latter-day Saints from Utah and can scarcely think of any who would behave as you have described above. So perhaps our anecdotal perceptions cancel each other out.

To the extent that there have been any who have acted that way, I say shame on them.

I am disappointed by any manifestation of regional factionalism or any propensity to use that as an occasion to view or speak disparagingly of others in the Church.

I earnestly believe that antipathy among the covenant people of God based on regional or cultural differences is not pleasing to our Father in Heaven and is contrary to the strict commandment of Jesus Christ, who said, "Be one, and if ye are not one, ye are not mine."

That should be taken to heart by everyone, regardless of residence or cultural background.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[JDave]

Some things that I have seen with Utah culture:

• Because there are so many LDS families (I presume that is the reason, or at least what makes it possible), some LDS parents forbid their kids to play with non-LDS kids.
  
• If you invite non-LDS people over for dinner, it is fair game to also invite the missionaries -- without telling the people you invited.
  
• Almost all LDS children in Utah, and some adults, have an assumption that most of the world does not smoke or consume alcohol.
  
• Outward appearance that everything is just peachy with your life, even if it isn't. It seems a bit of a taboo to admit that you are having problems.
  
• Probably not Utah-specific, and likely seen amongst all religious: Assumption that problems in life must result from some spiritual deficiency. Or at a least if you increase your spirituality, or degree of fervency in prayer/scripture reading/etc., then the problem will go away.
  
• Strong sense of community and being part of something larger, due in large part to Church headquarters and multiple temples.
  
• Institute classes (religious education) is an assumed part of university education.
  

[mfbukowski]

I think there is some presentism at play here.

I haven't looked into circumstances in 1958, but if Elder Hunter was the first apostle -- or perhaps the first General Authority -- to hail from California (and I'm fairly confident that was the case), that fact would have been newsworthy indeed. And I say that as a news journalist.

I know he wasn't the first in the modern age to be from outside of Utah, because Spencer W. Kimball came from Arizona, but I'm fairly certain it was unusual -- and hence, newsworthy -- to have one of the Brethren come from outside of Utah.

To bring it up to date, imagine how it will be with the first apostle or prophet born outside the US, perhaps a native Spanish speaker.

And I am too old, but hope my grandchildren get to see the first Black prophet!

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

If you're anti-Communist then you are anti-Law of Consecration and therefore anti-God. Simple logic.

I am sorry but you are simply wrong on so many levels. You could not even begin to make the comparison that Communism = Law of Consecration. Other people tried to do it before and failed. I suggest you read up on both and see what the differences are for they are drastic and significant.

Read my last response before you respond to this one.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Mola Ram Suda Ram

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I know. I was just having fun.

Oh I see yanking my chain at my expsense. Lol. That is funny. Carry on.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

Having grown up in New Zealand with a steady stream of "Utah" Mormons coming through the ward for various amounts of time I can assure you you don't need to have a victim complex to have experiened the "holier than thou" disposition some Utah Mormons carry.

I would point out that the "holier than thou disposition" is not limited to just Utah. It is some what telling that you would limit it to Utah.

[Damien the Leper]

Oh I see yanking my chain at my expsense. Lol. That is funny. Carry on.

The drastic difference between Communism and the Law that the former, in its purest form, promotes and demands a utopian society d the latter does .

[Stone holm]

My brother-in-law and family live in Dorset VT.

Yep, that is on the otherside of the State, very beautiful and a little pricey. Springfield where I live is a small city which has seen much, much livelier days when it was the center of New England.

[Bikeemikey]

I don't dispute that such a thing happens from time to time.

But I also suspect a degree of hypersensitivity that causes the occasional such occurence to be magnified in one's memory and perception.

I will say that I have known countless Latter-day Saints from Utah and can scarcely think of any who would behave as you have described above. So perhaps our anecdotal perceptions cancel each other out.

To the extent that there have been any who have acted that way, I say shame on them.

I am disappointed by any manifestation of regional factionalism or any propensity to use that as an occasion to view or speak disparagingly of others in the Church.

I earnestly believe that antipathy among the covenant people of God based on regional or cultural differences is not pleasing to our Father in Heaven and is contrary to the strict commandment of Jesus Christ, who said, "Be one, and if ye are not one, ye are not mine."

That should be taken to heart by everyone, regardless of residence or cultural background.

Couldn't agree more.

[mfbukowski]

The drastic difference between Communism and the Law that the former, in its purest form, promotes and demands a utopian society d the latter does .

I think there was a typo or something there- ?

The biggest difference is that Communism is imposed on others by force but Consecration is entered into freely and voluntarily by people who actually want to participate.

The difference is pretty plain and obvious.

[Stone holm]

Couldn't agree more.

I believe what you have described is what the back row crowd at Church refers to as the detox process usually takes only a couple months unless they are slow learners.

[Scott Lloyd]

Some things that I have seen with Utah culture:

[*]Because there are so many LDS families (I presume that is the reason, or at least what makes it possible), some LDS parents forbid their kids to play with non-LDS kids.

Leaving your other points unaddressed for the moment, I will comment on this one.

I hear this from time to time, and when I do, I consider my own attitude and experience. In the part of Utah where I live and the parts where I have lived, I just don't see it happening often, if ever. I don't see the other Church members in my acquaintance forbidding their children to associate with others on the basis of religious affiliation alone.

On the other hand, if I perceived that another child might have a morally corrupting influence on my child or children, whether or not that child's family were Mormon or non-Mormon, I would have something to say about it, and I would regard my objection as not only excusable but prudent.

I hasten to add that when I use the phrase "morally corrupting" I have in mind violation of the Judeo-Christian ethic and not merely Mormon-specific values.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Scott Lloyd

[Ahab]

I have been to wards that are friendly and to wards that are reserved towards strangers but never to an unfriendly one whether it be Utah or some other place.

Some people think of "unfriendly" as simpy not being friendly, even if not being rude. Like if I just sit down by myself and ponder some thoughts in the chapel, then someone could consider me to be unfriendly. Even if I said "Hi" or made friendly eye contact with the people I saw before sitting down. As if I'm supposed to be walking around trying to shake people's hands and get into some conversations with people if I don't want people to label me as being "unfriendly". Sheesh. Some people are so weird.

[JDave]

Leaving your other points unaddressed for the moment, I will comment on this one.

I hear this from time to time, and when I do, I consider my own attitude and experience. In the part of Utah where I live and the parts where I have lived, I just don't see it happening often, if ever. I don't see the other Church members in my acquaintance forbidding their children to associate with others on the basis of religious affiliation alone.

I don't mean to say that the items I mentioned are ubiquitous throughout Utah or even necessarily commonplace, only that I have heard of and seen such things in Utah and I have not heard of or seen them outside of Utah.

It also is important to note that most things that people perceive as 'Utah Mormon quirks' are the same types of quirks that would appear anywhere that there is a headquarters/center of a large organization. It is just human nature. Utah Mormons will tend to see their experience in the church as being normative because they live at the center/headquarters. I even grew up thinking that LDS lifestyles were the norm everywhere just due to the large concentration of LDS people I grew up around.

Though the alternative swear words seems an oddity. I don't know whether that occurs much outside of Utah or not. I haven't heard of it much outside of Utah. It seems like an easy way to be moderately or minimally rebellious within a concentrated LDS population, while not going so far that you are seen as being outside of the religion/group.

[Scott Lloyd]

It seems like an easy way to be moderately or minimally rebellious within a concentrated LDS population, while not going so far that you are seen as being outside of the religion/group.

There are other ways to do that. Two of the most common I've observed are these:

1. Subscribing to the Tribune while occasionally bad-mouthing the Deseret News (and not being in a position to make informed criticism of the Deseret News, since the basher never reads it anyway).

2. Being an ardent University of Utah fan to the point of being vocally hostile toward BYU.

[Damien the Leper]

I think there was a typo or something there- ?

The biggest difference is that Communism is imposed on others by force but Consecration is entered into freely and voluntarily by people who actually want to participate.

The difference is pretty plain and obvious.

As I said...in its purest form. I don't believe in imposing any style of government on anyone. The Law is non-utopian.

[mfbukowski]

As I said...in its purest form. I don't believe in imposing any style of government on anyone. The Law is non-utopian.

I would suggest that that is incompatible with the agenda of the CPUSA which is strictly Marxist-Leninist.

Ever heard of the "Dictatorship of the Proletariat?" Who do you think they are dictators over??

The Communist Party of the United States of America (Marxist-Leninist) pledges to fight for immediate independence for the nation of Puerto Rico, for the liberation and right of self-determination of the Negro nation in the South, for equal rights for all the national minorities which is an integral part of the struggle for the dictatorship of the proletariat, democracy, peace, and socialism.

The C.P.U.S.A. (M.-L.) must work untiringly to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat which is the guarantee for the socialist cause in the United States of America.

The Communist Party of the United States of America (Marxist-Leninist) has been reconstituted firmly on a Marxist-Leninist basis. The historic task before us is the building of the Party so that it may lead the working class in the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat and socialist construction in the U.S.A.

The Communist Party U.S.A. (Marxist-Leninist) requires all its members to place the Party’s interests above their personal interest, to be diligent and unpretentious, to study and work hard, to unite the broad masses of the people, and to overcome all difficulties in order to establish the dictatorship of the proletariat and build a modern socialist state, and on this basis to advance towards the achievement of the loftiest ideal of mankind – Communism.

And one of my favorites:

The organizational principle of the Communist Party of the United States of America (Marxist-Leninist) is democratic centralism, which means centralism on the basis of democracy and democracy under centralized, leadership, The Party must take effective measures to promote inner-Party democracy, encourage the initiative and creative ability of all Party members and of all local and primary Party organizations and strengthen the lively contact between the higher and lower Party, organizations. Only in this way can the Party effectively extend and strengthen its ties with the masses of the people, give correct leadership and adapt itself flexibly to various concrete conditions and local characteristics. And only in this way can Party life be invigorated and the centralism and unity of the Party be consolidated and its discipline be voluntarily, not mechanically observed.

http://www.marxists.org/history/erol/periodicals/red-flag/19660101.htm

"Give correct leadership".... How nice to know there are still immutable correct principles somewhere!

Edited May 15, 2013 by mfbukowski

[Damien the Leper]

From the CPUSA Constitution:

The living standards of workers and the natural environment on which life depends are under constant attack due to the drive for maximum profits inherent in capitalism. Our party fights for jobs and economic security, a decent and rising standard of living, peace, justice, equality, a sustainable environment, gay rights, health care, education, affordable housing, the needs of seniors, democracy, and a fulfilling life for everyone, with socialism as our goal. Only through the abolition of the capitalist system and the socialist reorganization of society can exploitation of human beings by others, and the evils of oppression, war, racism, environmental degradation, and poverty be ended. We seek to build a socialist society which puts people and nature before profits.

Our country’s founding Revolution exalted the ideals of equality, justice, and democracy, of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness for all. Marxists have long hailed its progressive significance, while recognizing its historical limitations, chief of which was the failure to abolish slavery. The Communist Party today upholds the continuing struggle to realize these ideals. The revolutionary democratic traditions of the United States call for radical change when injustice, inequality, and exploitation become unbearably oppressive. This legacy gives us, the working class and its allies, the right and responsibility to build a new society. We advocate an expanded Bill of Rights to guarantee religious, political, and individual freedoms, but also freedom from poverty, hunger, joblessness, and racism.

Racism plays a particularly destructive role in the life of our country, imposing severely impoverished living standards on tens of millions of the specially oppressed, and lowering the quality of life for all workers. Racism harms all workers, obstructing the development of working-class consciousness, driving wedges in class unity to divert attention from class exploitation, and creating extra profits for the capitalist class. The Communist Party is unalterably opposed to all manifestations of racism, national oppression, U.S. national chauvinism, male supremacy, homophobia, and anti-Semitism, which are used by the enemies of progress to divide the working class and people’s forces. The principles of democracy, equality, justice, and class self-interest require a joint fight against all expressions of racism and gender oppression. We fight for full equality for all who suffer from racial, national, and gender oppression as an essential aspect of the unity that is basic to all social progress.

Issues of war and peace, wealth and poverty, ecology and pollution, racial and national division, gender discrimination, and international conflict are all connected to class struggle, and have common features on which to build unity among peoples, organizations, and coalitions. The working class as the necessary leading force along with the other core forces—all racially and nationally oppressed groups, women, and youth—can build a movement that also includes the many streams of our working people—such as family farmers, small business owners, and the self-employed—who united together have the power to make fundamental progressive change.

Peace is essential for the survival of the planet and humanity. The pursuit of world domination to further enrich capitalists has resulted in destructive wars, environmental devastation, and massive poverty. The Communist Party fights for solidarity among the working class and peoples of all lands and supports their pursuit of self-determination over their own lands and economies. In the spirit of working-class internationalism, the Communist Party builds the closest bonds with Communist and Workers Parties throughout the world.

Founded in Chicago in 1919, the Communist Party of the United States has an outstanding history in the struggles for peace, democratic rights, racial and gender equality, economic justice, union organization, and international solidarity. Our Party is organized on the principle of democratic centralism, combining maximum democratic discussion and decision-making with maximum unity of will and action, ensuring our ability to play a strong organizing role in the class struggle. We focus our efforts on increasing our ability to organize millions into struggle, fighting anti-communism as a divisive weapon of the capitalist class. With Marxism-Leninism guiding our actions, the Communist Party strives to build the broadest unity against global capitalist imperialism now headed by U.S. imperialism, for immediate gains and reforms that benefit working people, and for a progressive democratization of the government, the economy, and society of our country on the road to and after winning socialism.

With pride in our past and confidence in our future, we hereby establish this Constitution of the Communist Party of the United States America.

I am in agreement with this statement.

Edited May 15, 2013 by Valentinus

[JDave]

Do Utah Mormons tend to be more Communist or less Communist than the average church population?

[mfbukowski]

From the CPUSA Constitution:

I am agreement with this statement.

This is so carefully worded it is almost funny.

I would suggest much more study of Marxism-Leninism, and a critical analysis of the clearly "cleaned up" meanings behind the following words:

The working class as the necessary leading force along with the other core forces—all racially and nationally oppressed groups, women, and youth—can build a movement that also includes the many streams of our working people—such as family farmers, small business owners, and the self-employed—who united together have the power to make fundamental progressive change.

I love this one:

Our Party is organized on the principle of democratic centralism, combining maximum democratic discussion and decision-making with maximum unity of will and action, ensuring our ability to play a strong organizing role in the class struggle. We focus our efforts on increasing our ability to organize millions into struggle, fighting anti-communism as a divisive weapon of the capitalist class. With Marxism-Leninism guiding our actions, the Communist Party strives to build the broadest unity against global capitalist imperialism now headed by U.S. imperialism, for immediate gains and reforms that benefit working people, and for a progressive democratization of the government, the economy, and society of our country on the road to and after winning socialism.

1- How does one achieve "democratic centralism" in a free society? Who is in charge of the "centralism"?

2- Why is "discussion" separated from "maximum unity of will and action"?

3- Why the mention of "struggle" and "fighting"?

4- Marxism-Leninism is affirmed. How much have you read of either Marx- or especially Lenin? Do you really think they believed in majority rule??

5- What are the "immediate gains" and how can they be achieved "immediately"??

6- Why the division between the "road to socialism" and "winning socialism"? I will tell you why. The dictatorship of the proletariat doesn't happen until after socialism is established. It is then that the dictatorship begins.

This stuff doesn't fool me- I used to write stuff like this during the '60's putting together "demonstrations" on college campuses trying to radicalize students. We thought Kent State where a few were killed was great!-- Finally the students would all be radicals like us! Everyone went on strike, the campuses were SHUT DOWN, people did not graduate, no finals, no grades! Finally the revolution was here.!!

September came and everyone came back to school.

I just think you need to study the roots of this so you know what this propaganda is really all about.

This is strictly phrased for public consumption. You need to see what is really behind all those nice words and ask some questions.

[mfbukowski]

The working class as the necessary leading force along with the other core forces—all racially and nationally oppressed groups, women, and youth—can build a movement that also includes the many streams of our working people—such as family farmers, small business owners, and the self-employed—who united together have the power to make fundamental progressive change.

Yeah- the Republicans. Good luck with that! Them family farmers are a real hotbed of communism- yessiree! And small business owners and the self- employed just LOVE more regulation!

Of course all of these will go along peacefully to Communism- who wants to work hard and make a million when you can work for the government for minimum wage anyway??

The economy as brought to you by the same folks who manage that great and efficient entity- the post office!

I better shut up or I may get an audit.....

[mfbukowski]

Do Utah Mormons tend to be more Communist or less Communist than the average church population?

Well family farmers are just waiting to get on board, so clearly they must be more Communist!